Elitist Jerks Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion

 01/28/09, 5:02 PM #256 Aamaretto Glass Joe   Aamaretto Night Elf Druid   Moonrunner The positive side of Replenish is that even though it doesn't tick for much very often (which is why I believe GC referred to it as a lackluster talent), it does tick on overheals. The times when I use RJ a lot are intensive fights like Saph and the vortex (as was mentioned), and those are times I want to squeeze every bit of mana out of every possible place. That's why I like Replenish. I do hope they improve it, of course, but I don't think it's as completely worthless as I first thought when I was under the impression it only ticked on actual heals.
01/28/09, 5:34 PM   #257
Zoltair
Von Kaiser

Night Elf Druid

Eonar
 Originally Posted by Sioned Ahh, thanks for the clarification. I got my numbers from W4lker's post on wowhead: Gift of the Earthmother - Spell - World of Warcraft I did not know the talent was applied mutiplicatively. So at 5/5 GotEM and 3/3 CF with 325 haste rating, what is my GCD and cast time on Regrowth and Nourish?
GotEM I am told works differently then CF and other Buffs. Also GotEM has nothing at all to do with Nourish and Regrowth. Only LB, Rejuv, and WG.

 Originally Posted by uliko If imp. moonkin/swift retribution works the same way as wrath of air we'd get: $\frac{1.5}{h*1.05*1.03}=1.3$ where 1.05 is wrath of air, 1.03 is moonkin/ret and h is how much haste needed to reach 1s GCD on GotEM spells since it's -0.3s after haste. Solving for h gives: $h=\frac{1.5}{1.3*1.05*1.03}=1.0668...\approx1.067$ or 6.7% haste.
So according to the OP, the -.3 sec from 5/5 GotEM is taken off at then end. Unfortunately I personally am unsure of a way to provide proof for this. I need an Addon that allows me to see a tooltip or something for GCD. The logic makes sense though since you are using 2 different mechanics. Haste is the increase of casting speed, GotEM is the reduction, so one can only assume each works seperately from the originally Base (G)CD. Hence why GotEM would always be a constant regardless of any other effects (except other reduction effects which are not present at this time).

EDIT: To answer the cast time portion of your question for Regrowth and Nourish with 325 Rating in gear and CF (no other buffs):

325/32.79 = 9.91%

1.5/(1.0991*1.03) = 1.325 Nourish
2/1.132 = 1.767 Regrowth

Last edited by Zoltair : 01/28/09 at 6:25 PM.

01/28/09, 10:43 PM   #258
George
Glass Joe

Tauren Druid

Aman'Thul
 Originally Posted by Ynox Fallen Angel Healing is not about topping the meters, Healing is about having everyones life toped. Rej is super for this, because sustained dmg income is healed sustained and spike dmg income is healed with swiftmend. In every Fight situatin where you have to expect high spiky raid dmg you should have a raid full with RJ, example Malygos P2 when changing the Bubbles. Or Kel'Thuzad throw it on the healers for Frosttombs, in addition if you have replenish the have more mana to waste on what ever needs heal or will need heal. In addition RJ will often heal the aoe Frost dmg. With the RJ idol you can heal with RJ while almost loosing no mana. And RJ does heal a lot more now than before the 6 sec cd on WG, you heal the targets CoH cant anymore. And if you talk to your healing mates, they will configure their Grid to see your hots, and wont overheal them. Rej is the most mana efficient Heal for raid heal, and when other healers do the job you dont need to do, then you got to many healers with you. You could try to dps. 2k dps is more than useless. Even if i wrote on the top that Healing is not about topping the meters, it is easy to top the meters as a heal druid.
My only problem with rejuv is that it is slow to apply healing. It depends on the situation but when there are several people taking damage and you need to get their health up quickly waiting three seconds between rejuv ticks isn't always the best option.

Of course it depends on your raid make up. Our guild was hit hard by the WG/CoH nerf because we only have one semi-active resto shaman. If I'm on raid healing along with a priest or another druid when there is bursty raid damage (3 drake sarth or maly), I find that relying on rejuv too much leaves the raid vulnerable to death or that my swiftmend cooldown isn't up right when I need it. I usually go with regrowth and then mix rejuv in when there is no burst to heal. Wtb resto shaman /sigh.

Last edited by George : 01/29/09 at 1:52 AM. Reason: Capitalization and wording.

01/28/09, 11:24 PM   #259
Aamaretto
Glass Joe

Night Elf Druid

Moonrunner
 Originally Posted by George my only problem with rejuv is that it is slow to apply healing. it depends on the situation but when there are several people taking damage and you need to get their health up quickly then waiting 3 seconds between rejuv ticks isn't always the best option. of course it depends on your raid make up, our guild was hit hard by the WG/CoH nerf because we only have one semi active resto shaman. if i'm on raid healing along with a priest or another druid on fights where there is bursty raid damage (3 drake sarth or maly) i find that relying on rejuv too much leaves the raid vulnerable to death and i my swiftmend CD is just never up fast enough. i usually go with regrowth and then mix rejuv in when there is no burt to heal. wtb resto shaman /sigh.
We haven't done 3-drake Sarth yet so I can't comment, but on Maly, the multiple-person damage is spikey but predictable (unlike Saph which is slow and steady). Yes, if someone gets hit twice in a row by the scions outside the bubble, that hurts, but on the vortex, the arcane breath, and his deep breath, everyone takes a whole bunch of damage ... and then it stops. Just because everyone took 10k damage in 1s doesn't mean it needs to be healed up to full in 1s. Let your hots tick. Have the priest cast COH and then do something else and then cast it again.

And if someone gets hit by the scions with rejuv up, that's what swiftmend is for. My swiftmend CD usually isn't down unless I'm playing race-the-other-healers for shits and giggles, or if a bunch of people are doing something dumb they're not supposed to.

My two cents anyway. I find that a lot of people don't trust hots, and this just sounds like a case of that to me.

 01/28/09, 11:55 PM #260 George Glass Joe   Geraldine Tauren Druid   Aman'Thul I totally agree about rejuv on P1 in Malygos, the vortex damage is predictable so rejuv works great and the other damage in P1 doesn't require players to be topped up immediately. When it comes to P2 without anyone hitting the raid regularly with bursty heals I really don't trust HoTs. I've tried rejuv but we just lost dps all over the place, I found regrowth gave the benefit of a big top up and a long lasting HoT that can be swiftmended as needed. I'm certain it comes down to healing make up. We rarely have a shaman and now I think about it since the patch we've only had one priest raid who has been discipline. No guild would raid with 2 pallies/3 druids and one disc priest as a heal team if they had other options. Our druids are filling the gaps of other classes who respecced/rerolled DPS so we are probably picking spells for different reasons than most. My point was more or less that druid raid healing spell choices can't be boxed into rejuv always being the best option. Last edited by George : 01/29/09 at 2:08 AM. Reason: Capitalization and wording.
 01/29/09, 2:03 AM #261 red Piston Honda   Deakn Tauren Druid   Laughing Skull GCD of Thorns and Rejuvenation with varied haste and Celestial Focus levels. /cast Thorns /script local start, duration, enable = GetActionCooldown(4);DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(duration); Using the above macro, I tested the GCD of Thorns and Rejuvenation with both 336 Haste Rating and 0 Haste rating with various levels of Celestial Focus. My spec included 5/5 GotEM. My armory profile reflects the gear I used. I had no buffs during the test. Here is my raw data. Feel free to draw/post your own conclusions. Notice that Celestial Focus decreases the GCD even when your Haste Rating from gear is 0. -=- Thorns -=- --0 haste rating: 0 CF: 1.5 1 CF: 1.485 2 CF: 1.47 3 CF: 1.456 --336 haste rating: 0 CF: 1.36 1 CF: 1.347 2 CF: 1.333 3 CF: 1.32 -=- Rejuvenation -=- --0 haste rating: 0 CF: 1.2 1 CF: 1.188 2 CF: 1.176 3 CF: 1.165 --336 haste rating: 0 CF: 1.088 1 CF: 1.077 2 CF: 1.067 3 CF: 1.056 Last edited by red : 01/29/09 at 2:55 AM.
 01/29/09, 7:14 AM #262 Fallenangel Don Flamenco   Treesa Tauren Druid   Chromaggus (EU) I don't particularly like rejuv for raid healing because other healers will heal over your hot. It's not a matter of being unaware, leaving someone at 50% hp just because a rejuv will get him to full 18 seconds later isn't a good choice. No, this isn't some I-need-to-top-the-meters thing, if I cast a rejuv on someone and then another healer tops him up, I wasted my time and mana on that rejuv. Rejuv is very strong in some situations, it's a great way to counter periodic damage or to set up a SM in case you suspect you'll need it. It's also a hot you want up on your tanks 100% of the time. But if someone is already at 70% or lower, it's just too slow. For that purpose, regrowth and nourish are better. WWS is our naxx clear WG-nerf, rejuv is actually the top healing spell by a small margin, although I suspect it's a combination of several fights (sapphiron, loatheb) that strongly favor it along with under-utilization of WG due to adjusting to the cooldown. And if you use rejuv to heal frost blast...I'm not sure what to say. Don't.
 01/29/09, 8:53 AM #263 Pownstaronfizz Glass Joe   Pownstar Night Elf Druid   Fizzcrank I think it has great options. While I agree it should not be used as raiding healing ('cept particular fights) it does have it's benefits for some raid healing, such as ret pallys. I always keep a rejuv on every tank, every lock, and every ret pallys. There's a balance to just about everything it seems.
01/29/09, 9:24 AM   #264
Aamaretto
Glass Joe

Night Elf Druid

Moonrunner
 Originally Posted by George No guild would raid with 2 pallies/3 druids and one disc priest as a heal team if they had other options. Our druids are filling the gaps of other classes who respecced/rerolled DPS so we are probably picking spells for different reasons than most. My point was more or less that druid raid healing spell choices can't be boxed into rejuv always being the best option.
I definitely agree that RJ isn't always the best option, but it is a very good option. The nature of hots in general means they're going to be healed over very quickly.

I just don't find that having a shaman in the raid is a necessity, but maybe I'm a little bit laid back about things. If one of the dps dies, it's usually because they stood in the blizzard or whatever the incoming damage was. When people die, it's not usually because of our raid makeup, it's because someone was screwing around, doing something they shouldn't. So does a shaman pick up the slack when the dps drops it better than any other healing class? Maybe. But for predictable fights that everyone knows, it is my opinion that just about any makeup (with a fairly good mix of healers) should be able to do it.

I would be interested in arguments to the contrary; as I said, I'm more laid back about things. I do my absolute best to keep everyone alive, but if they die, 99% of the time, it's because they dropped the ball, not the healers. And I'm not going to beat myself up because someone couldn't dance on Heigen. But I will pat myself on the back for a well-timed RJ+swiftmend when they don't move fast enough.

 01/29/09, 9:27 AM #265 woodsyresto Glass Joe   Woodsy Night Elf Druid   Draka Resto Stat Caps / Naxx on dialup I'm trying to understand if there are any caps, or points of negligable return, on +heals, intelligence, stamina and haste for a resto? I'm pretty much all in fully enchanted/gemmed 200 lvl gear and I have noticed for my last 3-4 upgrades the impact on my +heals has been non-existant. Is there a site/post that explains the calculations for the resto stats with regards to caps or how they are scaled at the higher levels? Trying to figure out if I'm wasteing gems/enchants on capped, or virtually capped stats.... Other question - is any one healing Naxx on dialup? I have every peice of gear available out of the 5-mans but have not taken a run at Naxx as there is no high speed available in my area. Has any1 run 10 man Naxx on dial?
01/29/09, 10:43 AM   #266
chronas
Glass Joe

Night Elf Druid

 Originally Posted by woodsyresto Is there a site/post that explains the calculations for the resto stats with regards to caps or how they are scaled at the higher levels? Trying to figure out if I'm wasteing gems/enchants on capped, or virtually capped stats....
Restoration Itemization

01/29/09, 11:02 AM   #267
chronas
Glass Joe

Night Elf Druid

 Originally Posted by Fallenangel I don't particularly like rejuv for raid healing because other healers will heal over your hot. It's not a matter of being unaware, leaving someone at 50% hp just because a rejuv will get him to full 18 seconds later isn't a good choice. No, this isn't some I-need-to-top-the-meters thing, if I cast a rejuv on someone and then another healer tops him up, I wasted my time and mana on that rejuv. Rejuv is very strong in some situations, it's a great way to counter periodic damage or to set up a SM in case you suspect you'll need it. It's also a hot you want up on your tanks 100% of the time. But if someone is already at 70% or lower, it's just too slow. For that purpose, regrowth and nourish are better.
I agree here, great post by the way.

I think the thing to note here is that as much as we want to post on the topic, there are simply TOO many variables that effect this.

Take for example a 25 man with 3 druid healers (yes, I know). Now, each of us are specced / glyphed differently. One of us heavy HT build, one rejuv/regrowth (me), and the other a hybrid. Now, I can't speak for the other two but the three of us combined are quite the weapon. I am not on top of their casts, and we are getting good enough (sorry if that sounds cocky- not my intention) to know on each fight who is casting what....when. I do find myself usually doing this (changes per fight however)

rejuv on the tank group, then hit the MT with regrowth, (if aoe dmg is going on, WG), and I keep a rejuv/regrowth up on the tank group, spot healing the raid with regrowth and WG.

The other druids are doing other spells and YES in times healing over the top of me - which I think is unavoidable in any case.

The point is however that if any of the tanks take a dmg spike - swiftmend is there and a HT macro if needed.

This is fun stuff, but I will admit my lack of complete understanding as I learn the specifics. If you guys have any tips on my gear/build/cast sequence I'd love to learn even more.

 01/29/09, 11:21 AM #268 atliens Glass Joe   Atlienz Night Elf Druid   Stonemaul In regards to raid healing, I do think RJ is very effective used in the following manner. With RJ having a 1 sec GCD, the RJ->SM combo is our quickest hitting heal. Yes it is 2 key-clicks, and no this content doesn't demand cutting edge play, but you should be forming good habits for Ulduar. SM's 15-sec CD should be used proactively (as in, when it's up, look for the next chance to use it, instead of only as an oh-sh!t button). I.e., on Maly arcane breath, try WG / RJ->SM / RG&Nourish weaving and you should top meters. Imho, this rotation is good for any raid damage. Healers aren't excluded from having rotations. It just occurred to me that I use this same rotation for OS+3.
01/29/09, 12:18 PM   #269
Erdluf
Great Tiger

Night Elf Druid

Echo Isles
 Originally Posted by druicifer Can anyone confirm this that brambles only helps your own thorns? I'm going to live test it right now.
Farming lashers in Wintergrasp for the daily yesterday, I threw Thorns on myself and an affliction lock who was also there.

In my PvP gear (which I wear in Wintergrasp), I have about 1700 spellpower (not sure of the exact number). Thorns scales at 6.6%. I'd predict my thorns to do

(73+0.066 * 1700) * 1.13 (earth and moon debuf) * 1.03 (E&M personnal) * 1.04 (Master Shapeshifter) * 1.75 (Brambles) = 392.

10% more (431) when Owlkin Frenzy procs.

A short WWS shows my damage at 397 and 436.

The Warlock's armory shows 1336 +spell, and 170 spirit, unbuffed. Add my MotW and his spirit should go to 207. Fel Armor is 150 spell + 30% spirit->spell. He has 3/3 Demonic Aegis, which is a 30% boost to Fel Armor. His +spell (assuming no gear change) would have been about

1336 + 1.3*(150+207*.3) = 1651, or 2241 when his [Flow of Knowledge] procc'ed.

(73+.066*1651) = 182
(73+.066*2241) = 221

His thorns all hit for 183, 184, or 223

Conclusion: He did not benefit from Brambles

01/29/09, 1:32 PM   #270
Zoltair
Von Kaiser

Night Elf Druid

Eonar
 Originally Posted by red /cast Thorns /script local start, duration, enable = GetActionCooldown(4);DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage(duration); Using the above macro, I tested the GCD of Thorns and Rejuvenation with both 336 Haste Rating and 0 Haste rating with various levels of Celestial Focus. My spec included 5/5 GotEM. My armory profile reflects the gear I used. I had no buffs during the test. Here is my raw data. Feel free to draw/post your own conclusions. Notice that Celestial Focus decreases the GCD even when your Haste Rating from gear is 0. -=- Thorns -=- --0 haste rating: 0 CF: 1.5 1 CF: 1.485 2 CF: 1.47 3 CF: 1.456 --336 haste rating: 0 CF: 1.36 1 CF: 1.347 2 CF: 1.333 3 CF: 1.32 -=- Rejuvenation -=- --0 haste rating: 0 CF: 1.2 1 CF: 1.188 2 CF: 1.176 3 CF: 1.165 --336 haste rating: 0 CF: 1.088 1 CF: 1.077 2 CF: 1.067 3 CF: 1.056

Thank you Red. You have brought to light a pretty significant difference of Uliko’s formula since patch 3.0.8. Although the GotEM reduction did occur at the end of the formula at a fixed .3, .24, .18, .12, .06 sec off the final cast, it is now just a 20%/16%/12%/8%/4% reduction.

Uliko’s formula for your example of 336 haste with 5/5 GotEM and 3/3 CF on Rejuv as previously interpretted:
336/32.79=10.247026
(1.5GCD/(~1.1024703*1.03)) - .3 = 1.0209523 Revuj Cast Time (Your script shows that the result of this is 1.056)

The following is the same but subtracting 20% from the new cast time rather then -.3 sec or 30%Haste as an equivalance to 20% base reduction (5/5 GotEM):

1.5/(~1.1024703*1.03) = 1.3209523 (Before GotEM)

1.3209523 * 20% = .2641904 reduction
1.3209523 - .2641904 = 1.0567619  Bingo!

I’ve ran the same formula for each of your GCD posts regarding GotEM both with 1,2, and 3 CF and they all match 100%. It appears as though your script OR WoW always rounds down to the nearest thousandth.

So this brings to light some corrections to the current Soft Cap Spreadsheet floating between this thread and the Restoration Itemization Thread.

In order to maintain a 1sec GCD on Rejuv, LB, and WG:

Wrath of Air and Improved Moonkin Aura/Swift Retribution Aura (with 3/3 Celestial Focus)
0/5 GotE = ~34.7% Haste = ~1137 Haste Rating
1/5 GotE = ~27.0% Haste = ~887 Haste Rating ~29.45% =~959 Haste Rating
2/5 GotE = ~20.2% Haste = ~664 Haste Rating ~23.85% =~782 Haste Rating
3/5 GotE = ~14.1% Haste = ~463 Haste Rating ~18.48% =~606 Haste Rating
4/5 GotE = ~8.6% Haste = ~282 Haste Rating ~13.11% =~430 Haste Rating
5/5 GotE = ~3.6% Haste = ~118 Haste Rating ~7.72% =~253 Haste Rating

Wrath of Air only (with 3/3 Celestial Focus)
0/5 GotE = ~38.7% Haste = ~1269 Haste Rating
1/5 GotE = ~30.8% Haste = ~1012 Haste Rating ~33.12% =~1086 Haste Rating
2/5 GotE = ~23.8% Haste = ~782 Haste Rating ~27.60% =~905 Haste Rating
3/5 GotE = ~17.5% Haste = ~576 Haste Rating ~22.05% =~723 Haste Rating
4/5 GotE = ~11.9% Haste = ~389 Haste Rating ~16.50% =~541 Haste Rating
5/5 GotE = ~6.7% Haste = ~220 Haste Rating ~10.95% =~359 Haste Rating

Improved Moonkin Aura/Swift Retribution Aura only (with 3/3 Celestial Focus)
0/5 GotE = ~41.4% Haste = ~1358 Haste Rating
1/5 GotE = ~33.4% Haste = ~1095 Haste Rating ~35.71% =~1171 Haste Rating
2/5 GotE = ~26.2% Haste = ~861 Haste Rating ~30.04% =~985 Haste Rating
3/5 GotE = ~19.8% Haste = ~650 Haste Rating ~24.40% =~800 Haste Rating
4/5 GotE = ~14.0% Haste = ~460 Haste Rating ~18.76% =~615 Haste Rating
5/5 GotE = ~8.8% Haste = ~288 Haste Rating ~13.11% =~430 Haste Rating

No outside buffs at all (only 3/3 Celestial Focus)
0/5 GotE = ~45.6% Haste = ~1497 Haste Rating
1/5 GotE = ~37.4% Haste = ~1226 Haste Rating ~39.80% =~1305 Haste Rating
2/5 GotE = ~30.0% Haste = ~985 Haste Rating ~33.97% =~1114 Haste Rating
3/5 GotE = ~23,4% Haste = ~768 Haste Rating ~28.15% =~923 Haste Rating
4/5 GotE = ~17.4% Haste = ~573 Haste Rating ~22.32% =~732 Haste Rating
5/5 GotE = ~12.0% Haste = ~395 Haste Rating ~16.50% =~541 Haste Rating

Wrath of Air and Improved Moonkin Aura/Swift Retribution Aura
0/5 GotE = ~38.7% Haste = ~1269 Haste Rating
1/5 GotE = ~30.8% Haste = ~1012 Haste Rating ~33.12% =~1086 Haste Rating
2/5 GotE = ~23.8% Haste = ~782 Haste Rating ~27.60% =~905 Haste Rating
3/5 GotE = ~17.5% Haste = ~576 Haste Rating ~22.05% =~723 Haste Rating
4/5 GotE = ~11.9% Haste = ~389 Haste Rating ~16.50% =~541 Haste Rating
5/5 GotE = ~6.7% Haste = ~220 Haste Rating ~10.95% =~359 Haste Rating

Wrath of Air only
0/5 GotE = ~42.9% Haste = ~1407 Haste Rating
1/5 GotE = ~34.7% Haste = ~1138 Haste Rating ~37.12% =~1217 Haste Rating
2/5 GotE = ~27.5% Haste = ~902 Haste Rating ~31.41% =~1030 Haste Rating
3/5 GotE = ~21.1% Haste = ~692 Haste Rating ~25.71% =~843 Haste Rating
4/5 GotE = ~15.2% Haste = ~499 Haste Rating ~19.98% =~655 Haste Rating
5/5 GotE = ~9.9% Haste = ~325 Haste Rating ~14.27% =~468 Haste Rating

Improved Moonkin Aura/Swift Retribution Aura only
0/5 GotE = ~45.6% Haste = ~1497 Haste Rating
1/5 GotE = ~37.4% Haste = ~1226 Haste Rating ~39.80% =~1305 Haste Rating
2/5 GotE = ~30.0% Haste = ~985 Haste Rating ~33.97% =~1114 Haste Rating
3/5 GotE = ~23,4% Haste = ~768 Haste Rating ~28.15% =~923 Haste Rating
4/5 GotE = ~17.4% Haste = ~573 Haste Rating ~22.32% =~732 Haste Rating
5/5 GotE = ~12.0% Haste = ~395 Haste Rating ~16.50% =~541 Haste Rating

Numbers in Bold are the new results.

Formula Source
http://elitistjerks.com/1079687-post272.html

EDIT #1: I have verified in game that WotAT and other outside sourses do indeed work the same way and support the formula I have posted.

EDIT#2: Forgot to type some division symbols.

EDIT#3: I forgot to state that 5/5 GotEM without any other buffs or talent you would need ~655 Haste Rating or ~19.98%

EDIT #4: Based on a response from Uliko, I corrected the wording at the top to reflect the fact that GotEM% reduction can be applied off the 1.5 GCD OR the GCD after Haste. Both results in the same result.

Last edited by Zoltair : 01/30/09 at 12:43 PM.

 Elitist Jerks Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion