I'm curious why I hardly ever see the [Wyrmrest Necklace of Power] suggested as a possible best in slot neck piece. It seems like hands-down winner.
Sure it's a dps piece, but compared to the Chains of Adoration it's got more stam/int/haste and more spellpower thanks to the gem slot. The hit on the Wyrmrest necklace is wasted, but I'd argue that the mp5 on the Chains of Adoration isn't much better. 3.1 may change the equation, but right now mana just isn't an issue.
And the best reason in my case... on nights when I need to switch to Boomkin, I've got a single item that's BiS for both specs.
Edit: Vs. Life-Binder's, I guess it just comes down to whether or not 43 haste > 35 crit + 16 mp5. I like the haste.
I'm curious why I hardly ever see the [Wyrmrest Necklace of Power] suggested as a possible best in slot neck piece. It seems like hands-down winner.
Sure it's a dps piece, but compared to the Chains of Adoration it's got more stam/int/haste and more spellpower thanks to the gem slot. The hit on the Wyrmrest necklace is wasted, but I'd argue that the mp5 on the Chains of Adoration isn't much better. 3.1 may change the equation, but right now mana just isn't an issue.
And the best reason in my case... on nights when I need to switch to Boomkin, I've got a single item that's BiS for both specs.
Except that the healer version is BiS without undeniably useless stats such as hit rating and you cannot have both (not to mention yellow socket is better than blue socket).
Grats if you want a BiS DPS neck which is also ok for healing but that does not suddenly change the fact you can only have one of the two items and the one for healing is better for healing.
The choice of glyphs depends on what your role is, as dictated by raid composition and the encounter.
That to me is a sign that they're all pretty well designed. We get actual choices to make.
I think this does allow us the flexibility to be a very solid tank healer. If 4pc T7 works with the new glyph, on a typical tank with three hots it would get an additional 33% (15+18) boost, crit for around 40%+ of the time, and crits that leave a seed that works even if there's overheal. That's pretty darn good.
I still doubt many druids will be tank healers, but it's nice to have the option
Mathcrafting is not my strong point. However I have the following questions if anyone is so inclined to give them a look or give me a simple equation i can easily enough figure out myself.
Please disregard T7 bonus as I don't wear 4 pieces of T7.5 and unless it is being added to T8 as well I don't see that changing.
If so inclined figuring for both with and without the Nourish / Regrowth glyphs would be great.
1. How much will Nourish Hit for on average if there is 0 Hot, 1 Hot, 2 Hots, 3 Hots, 4 Hots, on the target.
2. How much will Nourish Crit for on average if there is 0 Hot, 1 Hot, 2 Hots, 3 Hots, 4 Hots, on the target.
3. What would the New Nourish's crit percentage be from talents / from full Raid Buffs? (I want to compare it with what I already have in a reliable Regrowth crit)
My feeling is that Nourish will pull far ahead on tank healing, but leave us wanting in terms of random dude needs a direct heal situation. As I rarely MT heal, I am very upset about my reliable critting Regrowth being nerfed and would love to see the numbers behind the "New Nourish."
That to me is a sign that they're all pretty well designed. We get actual choices to make.
I think this does allow us the flexibility to be a very solid tank healer. If 4pc T7 works with the new glyph, on a typical tank with three hots it would get an additional 33% (15+18) boost, crit for around 40%+ of the time, and crits that leave a seed that works even if there's overheal. That's pretty darn good.
I still doubt many druids will be tank healers, but it's nice to have the option
The trouble with Nourish is that it's really not great for anything other than tank healing. Further, for it to be most efficient, I think players would want 5/5 in Tranquil Spirit - Spell - World of Warcraft for the mana reduction. Also, I think it really restricts that Druid healer from doing anything else. Obviously you could throw a Wild Growth on the tank and have it (maybe) hit melee. But apart from that, for Nourish to be good you'd need a few rolling HOTs up. Regrowth is just (even post nerf) so far superior in every way because it doesn't really demand that you're healing only one target. Plus because the HOT lasts so long, you can Swiftmend it. I donno. I really want to like Nourish. I don't think it's a bad spell. I just think glyphed Regrowth is so much better for overall raid utility. We really didn't need a flash heal. Investing 5 talent points to get the most out of Nourish means most players will have to spec out of something else, like Living Seed or Revitalize. Both of which are much improved in this next patch.
The trouble with Nourish is that it's really not great for anything other than tank healing. Further, for it to be most efficient, I think players would want 5/5 in Tranquil Spirit - Spell - World of Warcraft for the mana reduction. Also, I think it really restricts that Druid healer from doing anything else. Obviously you could throw a Wild Growth on the tank and have it (maybe) hit melee. But apart from that, for Nourish to be good you'd need a few rolling HOTs up. Regrowth is just (even post nerf) so far superior in every way because it doesn't really demand that you're healing only one target. Plus because the HOT lasts so long, you can Swiftmend it. I donno. I really want to like Nourish. I don't think it's a bad spell. I just think glyphed Regrowth is so much better for overall raid utility. We really didn't need a flash heal. Investing 5 talent points to get the most out of Nourish means most players will have to spec out of something else, like Living Seed or Revitalize. Both of which are much improved in this next patch.
Nourish is faster. Even on the currently easy encounters, there are many situations where shaving 0.5 seconds off a direct heal is very helpful: Kel'thuzad, Sarth with 3 drakes, etc. On the other hand, there are very very few situations where I cast Regrowth on a raid target that already has the Regrowth hot ticking. This tends to happen on tanks (where the extra 20% will just go to overheal 99% of the time), or maybe on Sapp, where Regrowth tends to overheal a lot anyways as it's used for the HOT portion. In general in raids the vast majority of Regrowth healing for me is not the direct healing, which is making me question the utility of the Regrowth glyph even in this patch.
Re: tranquil spirit. I think it is a weak talent. Here's the problem with it: even with the buffs to Nourish in 3.1, we aren't going to be using it like paladins use Flash of Light, we have a ton of other spells to use. If only 25% of your mana is spent on Nourish, Tranquil Spirit becomes quite weak for the talent point investment, considering the alternatives (Nature's Grace, or Living Seed, or Revitalize).
Edit: I mostly agree with your spec come 3.1 (I would move the Emp. HT point and 1 Subtlety point into Tranquil Spirit, but it's a matter of taste really), and I would use Swiftmend, Nourish, and Wild Growth glyphs with it.
Tranquil Spirit should be a 5/10/15% like Improved Healing from Priests quite honestly (potentially with the Nourish from Moonglow being removed) in order to make it a viable talent and an attractive one but that's really just one small refinement which isn't of anything importance.
The lost 25% crit chance on RG as a raid heal will not doom it into obscurity as for the most part if you spammed it for the direct heal you were doing it wrong and you should have been using it for the combination of the direct and the hot aspect together.
Fact is regrowth is (was?) the best spell you have when raid-healing on someone that's already below 70% or so. Saying it's "doing it wrong" while we have no real alternative is odd at best.
Fact is regrowth is (was?) the best spell you have when raid-healing on someone that's already below 70% or so. Saying it's "doing it wrong" while we have no real alternative is odd at best.
Really? I am sure Regrowth is not a bad raid healing spell but there's certainly no consensus on it being best. A lot of druids use a combination of Rejuvenation and Wild Growth for a lot of their raid healing. I do the vast majority of my raid healing that way, and it is very effective. (I use Regrowth too, of course, it's just not my main raid healing spell.) The "no real alternative" thing is just wrong, sorry.
edit: I should say more about Regrowth vs Rejuv for raid healing, I think. As we all know, healing is an art, not a science. It is not about maximizing a single number like HPS. Being Regrowth heavy vs Rejuv heavy for raid healing gets at one of the fundamental tradeoffs in healing, which I term "easing pressure" vs "responding to spikes." Damage patterns broadly fall into two categories: "a lot of damage quickly" (spike), and "continuous damage slowly" (pressure). Different healer classes have different strengths and strategies for responding to these damage types. Obviously druids are good pressure responders, but they also have spike tools like fast direct heals and swiftmend. I think the reason there is no consensus on raid healing for druids is different druids run in different raid setups. Some raids have a lot of 'spike healers' so it is better for a druid to respond to pressure with Rejuv, while others have more 'pressure healers' so they need to respond to spikes more with Regrowth. Regrowth is both a pressure spell (because of the hot component) and a spike spell (because of the direct healing component), but it has an opportunity cost as a pressure spell vs Rejuv because of the cast time.
I am more of a pressure healer because I am the only resto druid in my raid full of priests and paladins, so a Rejuv-heavy "easing pressure strategy" works very well for me.
Using a hot on a low target is a waste as it's overhealed within 2-3 seconds, only Wild Growth is worth the gcd since it ticks a few times on several targets. It has always been Regrowth versus Nourish. Regrowth "wins" because it crits 50%, meaning not only more healing, but also more Living Seed and more Nature's Grace. In 3.1 all these benefits gets reduced and Nourish gets every benefit of these as well. It was already close between Nourish and Regrowth, I think Nourish now wins hands down. They already heal for about the same amount. Quick pros versus cons:
Nourish pros:
- 0.5 sec faster
- almost half as cheap
- Nourish scales better with spellpower than Regrowth
- Nourish gets a 20% buff on all hots while Regrowth only gets this on the Regrowth hot (which also will cost you a glyph slot btw).
Nourish cons:
- doesn't leave a hot that can be swiftmended
- gives clumsy sub-1.0 casttime after crits (could decide to use Regrowth when NG is up though)
Using a hot on a low target is a waste as it's overhealed within 2-3 seconds
People always say this, and it's not true (well, not the whole story at any rate).
(a) Who cares about overheal? Every good healing spell overheals a lot. Druid hots are so incredibly efficient that even if they overhealed 80% of the time they are often still worth putting up (compare Chain Heal vs Rejuv with the Idol of Awakening for typical gear available). If you can predict a burst of raid damage (Maexxna, Malygos etc.) spreading HOTs around will result in a lot of healing done, even if they start off ticking wastefully at full hp. In fact, I think druid hots are so incredibly efficient precisely BECAUSE this kind of use is what the designers had in mind.
(b) If one or few targets are low, they will of course be healed quickly and a hot will just sit there at full hp, ticking wastefully. However, the whole point is, a lot of raid damage is all over the place, so a ton of people are low at once. Sure, direct healers would like to heal it all ASAP but they physically cannot because they are GCD limited (and possibly mana limited sometimes). This is what I mean by "easing pressure." By the time direct healers get the situation under control, all those "wasted" hots sitting there for 18 seconds at full hp have done a ton of healing and made the situation a lot more manageable. It's just like rolling lifeblooms on tanks -- it does a lot of overhealing, and nobody pretends that it can keep up a tank by itself in the face of heavy damage, but it is a huge stabilizer.
(a) Who cares about overheal? Every good healing spell overheals a lot. Druid hots are so incredibly efficient that even if they overhealed 80% of the time they are often still worth putting up (compare Chain Heal vs Rejuv with the Idol of Awakening for typical gear available). If you can predict a burst of raid damage (Maexxna, Malygos etc.) spreading HOTs around will result in a lot of healing done, even if they start off ticking wastefully at full hp. In fact, I think druid hots are so incredibly efficient precisely BECAUSE this kind of use is what the designers had in mind.
(b) If one or few targets are low, they will of course be healed quickly and a hot will just sit there at full hp, ticking wastefully. However, the whole point is, a lot of raid damage is all over the place, so a ton of people are low at once. Sure, direct healers would like to heal it all ASAP but they physically cannot because they are GCD limited (and possibly mana limited sometimes). This is what I mean by "easing pressure." By the time direct healers get the situation under control, all those "wasted" hots sitting there for 18 seconds at full hp have done a ton of healing and made the situation a lot more manageable.
I am not saying it's bad to spread hots around. I'm saying that when a target is low and you throw a Rejuv, it might not even tick once and then Regrowth (or Nourish) is the better choice. Even if Rejuvenation WOULD tick like 3-4 times, do you really want the target to sit low on hp for that long? I use hots for pro-active healing / topping people off and my direct heals for reactive healing (Wild Growth is the only exception).
After WOTLK hit, and the regrowth-love spread like a disease on the forums - I felt a little left out, because I really wanted to use Nourish the way it was meant to be used. And I did, for a long time. The cast time was the most appealing to me, and the rejuv mechanic was a bonus. When I got 4T7 I was in love. But no-one shared my view.
Eventually I sucked it up, glyphed regrowth (I'm 18/0/53 btw, 4/5 TS, 5/5 IR), and started using it in every situation possible just to get to single out those fights where it is "amazing" and yields me better results personally than my original rejuv/wg on raid lb/nourish/rejuv on tanks healing style.
I quickly learned to love regrowth, but it doesn't get aggressivly used except for those "oh shit"-moments (HI SHADRON / losing 2 healers on Sapph air phase) anymore, and the glyph - for me - has just given me the extra habit of "double-regrowth"-ing the tank in heavy encounters for the extra punch on the hot component.
I still use Nourish for tanks when I need a direct heal.
I've noticed in our raids (25m clears), that when the number of healers go down, my percentage of healing done by regrowth goes significantly up. It shines without a doubt when there is a general lack of available healing to go around.
I'm trying to point out that it's the combination of direct heal + hot (which someone else pointed out) that makes me love this spell so much, not the glyph, and not the insane crit.
I welcome this change, the regrowth-glyph is going out, Nourish-glyph going in (if it stacks with 4T7), and I can't wait to see what a powerhouse Nourish will become now.
Now, if I only could figure out where to put that WG-glyph ..
People keep saying they are factoring in T7.5 Set Bonus when wieghing how awesome Nourish will be. You are aware that new gear brings new set bonuses right? Or are they keeping these bonuses on all future sets now?
People keep saying they are factoring in T7.5 Set Bonus when wieghing how awesome Nourish will be. You are aware that new gear brings new set bonuses right? Or are they keeping these bonuses on all future sets now?
The fact is, what we have atm is t7.5 not t8, and with the changes to nourish in 3.1, the set bonus is going to become extreamly strong and will be very hard to break.
It will be a while (we can only hope) before we see t8 as it is. I cant see single pieces being superior enough for us to break the 4t7 bonus, except maybe on the final boss of Ulduar.
I already wear pieces that are better than T7.5, taking them off and putting the other 7.5 on to buff one spell, Nourish, in turn nerfs my spellpower for Rejuv, Lifebloom , Wild Growth, Regrowth, Swiftmend, NS, Ect...
So what percentage would you need to be using Nourish in your spell breakdowns to actually benefit from wearing those pieces?
I know Regrowth / Nourish would / are only be a small portion of my raid healing (what i usually do in a raid) generally I use Rejuv, WG, Lifebloom about equally with Regrowth / Nourish for emergency direct healing. Nourish is not my bread and butter as a Druid raid healer.
In the end I think Nourish is only being ungodly buffed for Druids who are assigned to Tank heal. For Raid healers, such as myself, wearing all 7.5 would be a significant nerf to my other spells. With that in mind, Regrowth getting a 25% nerf to it's crit leaves me with a nerfed direct raid heal because the chances of random dude in raid having even 1 hot him when he needs said random direct heal is not guaranteed.
Conclusion:
Great Buff for MT healing Druids.
All Round Nerf for Raid healing Druids.
P.S. The post coefficients for Nourish appear low, anyone have updated or correct coefficient?
Anybody else feels like rejuv should get a talent like Renew got ?
Meaning increases its healing by 15% and dealing 15% if the total hot upfront.
If this happens, regrowth will pretty much be dead as a raid heal. I really don't use it that often for this purpose, and I really wouldn't after the crit change. So yeah, this would be a nice addition. We don't have bubble / circle for the save. It boils down to using NS or Swiftmend - which is likely going to still take ~1.5s for that heal to land.
I agree with this. I don't do raid healing other than encounters that call for raid-wide damage like Malygos or Sapph. I see the changes to Nourish as a big boost especially combined with the glyph.
Add this to Revitalize changes and I will have a reason to take the talent now. I have never used Glyph of Regrowth because I never seem to find myself needing to cast a Regrowth on a target that still has it ticking; I only keep it on the tanks for the hot, not the direct heal. I have used Nourish ever since hitting 80 and with the t7 bonus it's even better.
Assuming the glyphs hit live, I will be hard pressed to pick three glyphs and might use my dual spec for two healing profiles, one with WG, RG and SM for raid heals and Nourish, SM and LB for tank heals.
Also, to note on spec issues, I don't see why anyone takes 3/3 Subtlety; 2/3 is sufficient for talent tree progression.
In regards to a raid healing nerf, it is and it isn't. for example, on Sarth 3Drakes, when the melee are taking heavy damage on the second drake, a Rejuv or RG on the group combined with Nourish to top them up will be quite effective. also during this encounter WG is constantly on CD and with the new glyph hits 6 targets.
Also, using nourish 90% more then RG allows us to move the 3 points out of NG and put them elsewhere, as NG is usless for Nourish when combined with a little haste.
And the only reason put points into Subtlety is a filler, as there is nothing else in the first 2 tiers to take thats worth anything now.
I personally feel the changes to Nourish are an all-round buff, even if we need to slightly adjust our healing style.
Edit: and yes i know im still specced into Naturalist
also the 3 glyphs i plan on using if they go live are -
In the end I think Nourish is only being ungodly buffed for Druids who are assigned to Tank heal. For Raid healers, such as myself, wearing all 7.5 would be a significant nerf to my other spells. With that in mind, Regrowth getting a 25% nerf to it's crit leaves me with a nerfed direct raid heal because the chances of random dude in raid having even 1 hot him when he needs said random direct heal is not guaranteed.
I doubt the loss of 40~ SP, 20~ stats and a tad extra rating is going to make that much of a difference to your other spells all things considering (it was a long time ago that I mathed it out but the difference was not honestly that big of a deal as I thought it would be). For raid healing we now have the strong option of using Regrowth/RJ/WG on people then laying down some beefy Nourishes on the people who need it rather than laying on a second Regrowth.
Without being able to easily test the changes yet (need to get sort a group for Sarth 3d on the PTR or so) it actually now seems to open up some very good synergies regarding raid healing between our spells that will allow the fast adaptive Druid to outperform the less skilled ones.
eg: Healing people through Vesperons Disciple you will initially start putting RG down on some people then throw a WG/RJ around. Following that you now have hots on a fair amount of people most of which will last a pretty long time that you can use Nourish on spikes people take. Not only that but when tanks start taking a couple of big hits I can get some much faster heals off which now have at 30%+ (assuming glyph or 4t7) improved healing and a pretty decent chance to proc a seed which is not going to be wimpy.
There are a lot of doomsayers right now who do not even understand the current differences between the spells and that most likely have not even downloaded the PTR let alone tested things out either. Once Ulduar is opened or things get stable enough and people start trying raiding out there no doubt we will get some better informed opinions rather than dismissive comments about how Blizzard ruined Druid healing forever and made Regrowth die a painful death at the hands of Nourish.
Since I haven't seen anyone commenting on it, I thought I'd post what I've observed with regards to the effectiveness of Innervate on the PTR. My gear on armory should be the same as what I have on the PTR, pretty decent.
My Stats (completely unbuffed):
905 Intellect (16791 mana)
995 Spirit (1206 with MDF)
310//560 mp5
363//666 mp5 (MDF active)
3/3 Intensity
3/3 Living Spirit
Innervate Results (with Glyph)
Innervate: 3063 mp5 (12252 mana returned)
With MDF: 3700 mp5 (14800 mana returned)
I haven't seen this in a raid setting yet with all possible buffs, but just from checking it out in Org, it seems like a pretty severe nerf to our mana regen tool (much more so then I was expecting). With the changes to Imp Regrowth/Nature's Bounty, I think this is going to make a very strong case for using Nourish because of its low mana cost and increased crit chance.
As well, I had been hoping to replace my MDF with Ulduar trinkets, but I'm not so sure now since mana looks like its going to be quite a bit tighter.
Mara - I really noticed this too. I'm around the same stats, I use MDF too. I was seeing a return of about 12k mana, or 60% of bar. GC originally posted saying they were bringing it back in line with the 75% mana return, I don't know if he meant fully raid buffed, but the only way I'm going to see 75% return is if I have kings, spirit, and replenishment already going. I posted in a thread on the PTR forums, hoping to get it addressed: World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Innervate overnerfed?
I'm buying out herbs as I write this to make a nobles deck. The only way I see innervate doing its intended job is hitting it on an spirit proc, using PowerAuras to watch closely.
Testing mana regen in an unbuffed environment isn't indicative of the nerf. Raid buffs provide about 200 spirit which will directly increase the % you get from it. Given the 40% nerf to the coefficient innervate should return around 72% of your bar which gives a rough figure of 80mp5 nerf.
About nourish - has the assumption that 4t7 stacks with the glyph been tested? I'd say that Blizzard views the 4t7 as a narrow bonus that can be very strong in specific situations and as opted to provide an alternative that isn't dependent on wearing old tiers of gear. In addition, for raid healing it's pretty unlikely to assume more than 1 hot on the target, espeically in 25 men raids (in a 10 men raid WG+RJ is more likely, moreso if you plan for it). As such, choosing between RG and nourish should boil down to whether the hot component of RG is useful. For example, for countering twilight torment it is because the raid constantly takes damage. For healing the AOE in maylgos P1 WG followed by nourish will probably be better.
02/25/09, 2:07 PM
