Lets consider rejuv/WG that only hits mana users:
Wild Growth glyphed - 7 ticks on 6 targets, total 42 ticks. 15% * 42 = 6.3 procs. 6.3 procs * 15% mana = 94.5% mana
rejuv talented - 6 ticks * 0.15 * 15% = 13.5% mana
Keeping rejuv/wg on all healers at all times will probably be very worth doing, especially on paladin healers that stack up int to incredibly large mana pools.
With a typical raid of say 6 healers, keeping a rejuv on each will be good not only for the huge mana regen (13.5% of max mana every 18 sec, aka 3.75% of max mana every 5 sec) but also provide a hot "blanket" that boosts survivability and opens up swiftmend options.
just a 'taste' - at 30k max mana, 3.75% every 5 sec is equal to 1125 mp5.
The only way I see innervate doing its intended job is hitting it on an spirit proc, using PowerAuras to watch closely.
Unfortunately I can not see armory, but if you are using a MH/OH combo for max throughput don't forget to bind innervate to a wep switch macro as well. I have my Innervate equip my [Charmed Cierge] for the extra +spi since my MH/OH combo does not have as much.
Also, what is your mana pool mara? You get 14,800 mana returned with MDF up (safe to assume it will be up in combat), assuming you hat 20k MP at the time Innervate still returned 74% of your mana, which is not bad. It is not the full mana bar we are all used to, but getting 70% back and still having a pot CD is extremely beneficial.
Lets consider rejuv/WG that only hits mana users:
Wild Growth glyphed - 7 ticks on 7 targets, total 49 ticks. 15% * 49 = 7.35 procs. 7.35 procs * 15% mana = 110.25% mana
rejuv talented - 6 ticks * 0.15 * 15% = 13.5% mana
/snip/
just a 'taste' - at 30k max mana, 3.75% every 5 sec is equal to 1125 mp5.
It's unlikely that both the proc chance and the mana return increase between ranks of the talent (note how the other resources don't change). So a mana return of 5% is more likely even at max-rank. It still makes it pretty strong, and as been stated here the proc % from WG does feel overpowered.
In Tree Form / Talents - My CoEff .912 (Tested in Game with My Character - No Other Coeff posted on the interwebs matched the numbers I got with any amount of spell power in the actual game.)
My ToL Spell Power 2304 x .912 = 2101
Average of Base Nourish from Spellbook - 2035
ToL and Master Shapeshifter (Total 10% Added Healing) 2035 x 1.1 = 2238.5
No Hot On Target
2101 + 2238.5 = 4339 Which is actually happening in game.
Crit - 4339 x 1.5 = 6508 Which is actually happening in game.
Hot on target 20% extra
4339 = 1.2 = 5206 average heal with hot, which is actually happening in game.
5206 x 1.5 = 7809 average crit with hot, which is actually happening in game.
T7.5 Bonus - 5% for each hot on target - Below actually happening in game.
1 hot = 5206 x 1.05 = 5466 if it crit x 1.5 = 8199
2 hot = 5206 x 1.1 = 5727 if it crit x 1.5 = 8591
3 hot = 5206 x 1.15 = 5987 if it crit x 1.5 = 8981
4 hot = 5206 x 1.2 = 6247 if it crit x 1.5 = 9371
Proposed Glyph 6% extra healing for each hot on target
1 hot = 5206 x 1.06 = 5518 crit x 1.5 = 8277
2 hot = 5206 x 1.12 = 5831 crit x 1.5 = 8747
3 hot = 5206 x 1.18 = 6143 crit x 1.5 = 9215
4 hot = 5206 x 1.24 = 6455 crit x 1.5 = 9683
If Tier 7 and New Glyph stack, 11% extra healing for each hot on target
1 hot = 5206 x 1.11 = 5779 crit x 1.5 = 8669
2 hot = 5206 x 1.22 = 6351 crit x 1.5 = 9527
3 hot = 5206 x 1.33 = 6924 crit x 1.5 = 10,386
4 hot = 5206 x 1.44 = 7497 crit x 1.5 = 11,245
ALL ABOVE ARE UNBUFFED AVERAGE
My Glyphed Regrowth in Treeform is Critting on average in game for 8521. It is hitting for an average of 5243.
For My Tree to See Glyphed Regrowth's direct heal matched or surpassed in Nourish I would need at least 2 Hots on the target with either the T7 bonus or The Proposed Glyph, and at least 1 hot on the target if both T7 and New Glyph stacked.
So. For my tree using Regrowth as a direct heal on RANDOM raid damage where a hot is NOT guaranteed to be on the target, Regrowth will still be the better spell to use. However (and this is my problem with the whole situation) the crit that I have come to expect will be substantially reduced leaving my target more likely to get reduced healing. Nourish does not compensate for THAT person. It will only compensate IF the target happens to have 2 Hots on him with either the T7 bonus or The Proposed Glyph, and at least 1 hot on him if both T7 and New Glyph stacked.
That is a lot of prepping to get the same bang for the buck you could be getting out of Regrowth now. Not to mention the Hot Regrowth will leave behind which can also be swiftmended.
In terms of Raid Healing Nourish is NOT going to equal Regrowth's current critting heal as we are not guaranteed to have a Hot on the target. No one can come up with anything as to why Regrowth is "too powerful" or justify how nerfing it is warranted as Nourish will out do it in terms of direct healing on single targets loaded up with Hots, I can only hold to my theory that Regrowth is taking an unwarranted hit to perhaps enable Nourish to be the better heal for Main Tanks.
This goes with my Great Buff for Main Tank Healers, All Round Nerf for Raid Healers.
My Glyphed Regrowth in Treeform is Critting on average in game for 8521. It is hitting for an average of 5243.
For My Tree to See Glyphed Regrowth's direct heal matched or surpassed in Nourish I would need at least 2 Hots on the target with either the T7 bonus or The Proposed Glyph, and at least 1 hot on the target if both T7 and New Glyph stacked.
So. For my tree using Regrowth as a direct heal on RANDOM raid damage where a hot is NOT guaranteed to be on the target, Regrowth will still be the better spell to use. However (and this is my problem with the whole situation) the crit that I have come to expect will be substantially reduced leaving my target more likely to get reduced healing. Nourish does not compensate for THAT person. It will only compensate IF the target happens to have 2 Hots on him with either the T7 bonus or The Proposed Glyph, and at least 1 hot on him if both T7 and New Glyph stacked.
That is a lot of prepping to get the same bang for the buck you could be getting out of Regrowth now. Not to mention the Hot Regrowth will leave behind which can also be swiftmended.
In terms of Raid Healing Nourish is NOT going to equal Regrowth's current critting heal as we are not guaranteed to have a Hot on the target. No one can come up with anything as to why Regrowth is "too powerful" or justify how nerfing it is warranted as Nourish will out do it in terms of direct healing on single targets loaded up with Hots, I can only hold to my theory that Regrowth is taking an unwarranted hit to perhaps enable Nourish to be the better heal for Main Tanks.
This goes with my Great Buff for Main Tank Healers, All Round Nerf for Raid Healers.
#1 You are using a glyphed Regrowth as a raid heal which means you are casting it twice on a random raid member to get your numbers. The glyph is pretty useless for raid healing and saying it requires no setup while Nourish does is flawed.
You are assuming that you are casting Regrowth on someone with Regrowth already on them in comparison to Nourish being cast on someone with no hot on them.
Rough numbers for me (so expect variance):
Regrowth is 4.5k (5.8k glyphed) heal and 6.8k (8.3k glyphed) crit on a single cast with no previous Regrowth for 719 mana.
Nourish is 4.2k heal and 6.4k crit on a single cast with no heal over time effect for 572 mana (no TS).
If someone is at 70% health (an example used earlier) they will be at roughly a 6k deficit.
Regrowth critting will heal that from the direct heal only.
Regrowth not critting will heal that after one hot tick.
Nourish critting will heal that.
Nourish not critting will not heal that.
Nourish not critting on a target with a hot on them (and either 4T7 or glyph) will heal that.
Notice that if Regrowth does not heal it instantly via a crit then it will heal it 3 seconds later after one tick and so losing the 25% crit chance is not suddenly going to make it unviable for healing damage as you will just assume an additional tick will happen (which costs nothing).
If you are assuming the Living Seed proc then this assumes they will take further damage quite soon and in this case a second heal is often needed regardless and now suddenly Nourish is going to be much better to be used for this second cast than before while Regrowth will be slightly weaker.
The chances of there being a RJ/WG/LB/RG effect on random raid members is going to be a fairly high chance when you are assigned to raid healing (and WG is easy to apply to aoe patches) and more so if there is another Resto Druid. The chances of there being specifically a Regrowth effect on a random raid member is much lower for obvious reasons.
You know your entire post is based around the assumption that regrowth is present on the target right? Which means there'll be a hot for nourish and glyph aswell as the regrowth glyph.
Using my own stats, both glyphs to give a fair comparison and no 4t7 this comes out to 9133 nourish and 8998 regrowth average factoring in crit and seed at 100% efficiency since we're less likely to overwrite it in a raid healing situation. So you get a cheaper, faster and stronger heal in nourish. Now granted it leaves no hot unlike regrowth but as we already assumed regrowth was already on the target it more or less comes down to if refreshing it is beneficial or not. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. This is called choice. Why does it feel like most posters have some issues with the concept of two good heals for two different situations? It doesn't have to be nourish or regrowth, it can be both.
Nourish has its role in giving us more healing when our hots just can't cope with the damage, something I always felt we lacked during TBC. It's not meant to be flash of light or flash heal. It's a supplement to our hots not a replacement. Regrowth however is our answer to flash heal in that it's the heal we cast on the raid when they're in need of a direct heal and there is either no hot for nourish or the regrowth hot will be beneficial. If the situation is not as dire there's rejuvenation and wild growth.
The difference between nourish and regrowth for raid healing is so small there's really no right answer to every situation. It depends on your glyphs, your hots and the type of damage the raid is expected to take.
Some numbers to compare. Calculations made with 2929sp, 22% crit, 19.86% haste. If you want to run calculations with your own stats the coefficients are 66.7% for nourish, 53.7% for regrowth (this gets increased by 20% from emp. rejuvenation), 18.8% for regrowth ticks (again this gets increased by talents).
Nourish
Regrowth
No hots
7180
7498
Hot
8616
7498
Glyph
1 Hot
9133
8998 (if RG)
2 Hots
9650
8998 (if RG)
3 Hots
10167
8998 (if RG)
4 Hots
10684
8998
Glyph+4t7
1 Hot
9589
8998 (if RG)
2 Hots
10615
8998 (if RG)
3 Hots
11692
8998 (if RG)
4 Hots
12820
8998
While the above table makes nourish look good remember it leaves no hot for swiftmend so again, different heals for different situations.
Why hit food is bad
"You have to spend 10 seconds to apply it, you have to fish it and you cant use the feast."
#1 You are using a glyphed Regrowth as a raid heal which means you are casting it twice on a random raid member to get your numbers. The glyph is pretty useless for raid healing and saying it requires no setup while Nourish does is flawed.
You are assuming that you are casting Regrowth on someone with Regrowth already on them in comparison to Nourish being cast on someone with no hot on them.
Rough numbers for me (so expect variance):
Regrowth is 4.5k (5.8k glyphed) heal and 6.8k (8.3k glyphed) crit on a single cast with no previous Regrowth for 719 mana.
Nourish is 4.2k heal and 6.4k crit on a single cast with no heal over time effect for 572 mana (no TS).
If someone is at 70% health (an example used earlier) they will be at roughly a 6k deficit.
Regrowth critting will heal that from the direct heal only.
Regrowth not critting will heal that after one hot tick.
Nourish critting will heal that.
Nourish not critting will not heal that.
Notice that if Regrowth does not heal it instantly via a crit then it will heal it 3 seconds later after one tick and so losing the 25% crit chance is not suddenly going to make it unviable for healing damage as you will just assume an additional tick will happen (which costs nothing).
If you are assuming the Living Seed proc then this assumes they will take further damage quite soon and in this case a second heal is often needed regardless and now suddenly Nourish is going to be much better to be used for this second cast than before while Regrowth will be slightly weaker.
The chances of there being a RJ/WG/LB/RG effect on random raid members is going to be a fairly high chance when you are assigned to raid healing (and WG is easy to apply to aoe patches) and more so if there is another Resto Druid. The chances of there being specifically a Regrowth effect on a random raid member is much lower for obvious reasons.
I am literally seeing triple at this point so i will try to respond to this later tonight with the math. However, i am the only tree druid in our raids, so while that is an execellnt point it doesn't really help me much as the only hots on the raid will be what i can put out there.
Also I wasn't interested in the hot at this point as hots are healed over very frequently, even I could swiftmend and negate it.
What I am looking for is what will the best Direct Heal be on a random raid member. I am close to finding that out now but it is something i must give up today lol. Am I alone in thinking this is getting unnecessarily complicated?
Another important thing to remember is that 4 piece T7 is going to be essentially phased out with the new tier of gear. Which is why I believe if they do add the Nourish Glyph, that is the purpose, replacing the Tier set.
In my opinion, there needs to be a stop to the push to immediately replace Regrowth with Nourish. They are different spells, created for a different purpose. Granted the changes are going to actually encourage me to use Nourish (I don't currently). In fact, I'm now going to start wearing 4 piece.
Leaving 3 points leftover to balance between Living Seed and Revitalize. Unsure of the best way to balance this. Or perhaps just back out of 3 points in Nature's Grace? I wish it wasn't such a sink of 5 talent points for the 4% healing from Master Shapeshifter.
Any thoughts?
*edited with correct URL. Amazing I can even click the wrong talents on a calculator
What I am looking for is what will the best Direct Heal be on a random raid member. I am close to finding that out now but it is something i must give up today lol. Am I alone in thinking this is getting unnecessarily complicated?
Perhaps you should reroll a Paladin or Shaman before 3.1 hits.
To answer that.. question in as much of a basic way as you seem to desire:
a) if there is no HoT on the target then use Regrowth.
b) if there is a HoT on the target then use Nourish.
c) if there is a lot of periodic/raid damage then use Regrowth regardless of a) or b).
Keep in mind that this is a very basic breakdown for someone who cannot assess the encounter/situation by themselves and if you are actually able to do that then you will provide much better results than someone who needs some "best direct heal" to use.
[e] For Hotalicious the most viable standard build will be something like this which should allow you to cover most aspects of healing although if you wish to have two specs where one is specifically for tank healing and the other for raid then things will no doubt change.
You know your entire post is based around the assumption that regrowth is present on the target right? Which means there'll be a hot for nourish and glyph aswell as the regrowth glyph.
Bare with me as I am exhausted and math class ended 15 years ago. Where are you drawing this conclusion from because in the game i actually casted Nourish without hots and got those numbers.
Perhaps you should reroll a Paladin or Shaman before 3.1 hits.
To answer that.. question in as much of a basic way as you seem to desire:
a) if there is no HoT on the target then use Regrowth.
b) if there is a HoT on the target then use Nourish.
c) if there is a lot of periodic/raid damage then use Regrowth regardless of a) or b).
Keep in mind that this is a very basic breakdown for someone who cannot assess the encounter/situation by themselves and if you are actually able to do that then you will provide much better results than someone who needs some "best direct heal" to use.
[e] For Hotalicious the most viable standard build will be something like this which should allow you to cover most aspects of healing although if you wish to have two specs where one is specifically for tank healing and the other for raid then things will no doubt change.
TBH, I didn't even think about pulling 3 points out of Tranquil Spirit. That would be a minor change and could snag the other talents. Currently I'm the only Tree Druid in our raids, so at the moment I'm all over the place in terms of raid / tank healing. We'll see what Ulduar is like though.
Perhaps you should reroll a Paladin or Shaman before 3.1 hits.
To answer that.. question in as much of a basic way as you seem to desire:
a) if there is no HoT on the target then use Regrowth.
b) if there is a HoT on the target then use Nourish.
c) if there is a lot of periodic/raid damage then use Regrowth regardless of a) or b).
Keep in mind that this is a very basic breakdown for someone who cannot assess the encounter/situation by themselves and if you are actually able to do that then you will provide much better results than someone who needs some "best direct heal" to use.
[e] For Hotalicious the most viable standard build will be something like this which should allow you to cover most aspects of healing although if you wish to have two specs where one is specifically for tank healing and the other for raid then things will no doubt change.
Wow. Ok perhaps I wasn't clear as to why I am looking for this answer. The reason I want to know this is because I am curious which direct heal will be good for times where a direct heal is needed in 3.1 due to the changes, or if the differences are so small it will even matter, not because I have Pallie envy. In actual playtime direct heals are NOT anywhere even close to my most casted spells. It goes Rejuv, WG, Lifebloom, Regrowth, everything else for 98% of fights.
This is my first dip in the pool with math crafting as I usually just go with my gut by assessing the encounter/situation, which as worked very well, and I guess will be what i keep doing since it appears the math plays little role in what I was curious about.
Bare with me as I am exhausted and math class ended 15 years ago. Where are you drawing this conclusion from because in the game i actually casted Nourish without hots and got those numbers.
Originally Posted by You again
My Glyphed Regrowth in Treeform is Critting on average in game for 8521. It is hitting for an average of 5243.
For My Tree to See Glyphed Regrowth's direct heal matched or surpassed in Nourish [...]
Cleary shows you're comparing glyphed regrowth. If regrowth is glyphed why wouldn't nourish be? Also mentioning glyph means regrowth is on the target otherwise its pointless.
Fake edit: You're asking for math, yes? Did you not see the table I made a few posts ago?
Why hit food is bad
"You have to spend 10 seconds to apply it, you have to fish it and you cant use the feast."
Cleary shows you're comparing glyphed regrowth. If regrowth is glyphed why wouldn't nourish be? Also mentioning glyph means regrowth is on the target otherwise its pointless.
Fake edit: You're asking for math, yes? Did you not see the table I made a few posts ago?
Yes i did, thanks. I got enough of an answer to what i was looking for, basically i am going to what i have been doing and just use my judgement on what works best. Solid approach for me, I will leave the math in younger and more qualified hands.
Thankfully they have changed the proc rate of Revitalize on the PTR (% unknown) with Wild Growth but right now it seems pathetically low as the chance of getting 1 proc on a target per cast seems pretty dire.
Hopefully this means they will put the other HoTs on the effect too which should flesh it out better because the % it is at now keeps the talent at a near pre 3.1 level of 'bad'.
Thankfully they have changed the proc rate of Revitalize on the PTR (% unknown) with Wild Growth but right now it seems pathetically low as the chance of getting 1 proc on a target per cast seems pretty dire.
Hopefully this means they will put the other HoTs on the effect too which should flesh it out better because the % it is at now keeps the talent at a near pre 3.1 level of 'bad'.
I can confirm this. I've been testing it on the PTRs using Rejuv and then WG and Revitalize is clearly ticking a lot more when using Rejuvenation. There is also a bug in the tooltip where it says it returns 15% mana. I even thought it was base mana but changed some gear and the net result was the same, so it's definitely a typo.
There is also a bug in the tooltip where it says it returns 15% mana. I even thought it was base mana but changed some gear and the net result was the same, so it's definitely a typo.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if it is, indeed, 15% of base mana - wouldn't the amount remain the same no matter what? Changing your gear would have no impact. This change could be so that it gives an actual benefit to enhance shaman/ret paladin. More testing/confirmation would be nice.
Thankfully they have changed the proc rate of Revitalize on the PTR (% unknown) with Wild Growth but right now it seems pathetically low as the chance of getting 1 proc on a target per cast seems pretty dire.
Hopefully this means they will put the other HoTs on the effect too which should flesh it out better because the % it is at now keeps the talent at a near pre 3.1 level of 'bad'.
Looks like those 3 points may go back into Tranquil Spirit. I must say I am enjoying the increased Nourish crit chance.
Maybe I'm dense, but under what circumstances would it be better to glyph Regrowth over Nourish? It seems as though both glyphs are primarily used for single target (MT) healing situations, and it seems as though the Nourish glyph would be superior in that case. Am I missing something?
The only thing I could think of would be a pure tank healing glyph set up, as well as the nourish glyph. You'd gain a 20% stronger hot on regrowth, which, while a small boost to your HPS, is still a boost. A Druid that chooses a 'tank heals' vs. 'raid heals' setup for Dual Spec, once implemented, might roll with both glyphs, as opposed to just one. It's also possible the regrowth glyph will be altered to serve another purpose.
Last edited by voxxington : 02/27/09 at 4:46 AM.
Reason: Clarification
• Lifebloom: Mana cost of all ranks doubled. When Lifebloom blooms or is dispelled, it now refunds half the base mana cost of the spell per application of Lifebloom, and the heal effect is multiplied by the number of applications.
• Lifebloom: Mana cost of all ranks doubled. When Lifebloom blooms or is dispelled, it now refunds half the base mana cost of the spell per application of Lifebloom, and the heal effect is multiplied by the number of applications.
Wow they really do not want LB being used on more than 1 tank do they, I guess that beyond pure MT healing they would rather us use RJ/Nourish or so instead of just multi rolling LB on different tanks. Nice catch on finding that as I didn't pay much attention to these notes before.
[e] I used rather a lot of expletives when I read that change I have to say.
Lifebloom costs more than Regrowth now? Is there even a point to roll it on even 1 tank now?
The thing is, a bloom heals for as much as a triple stack (only all at once). So letting a single lifebloom bloom on a tank is the same HPS as rolling a triple stack, only it now costs half the mana to let it bloom (and the HPS is more bursty).
Well with mana regen change (meanly becouse of Innervate) and now with this change, i think Glyph of Innervate, Swiftmend will be a MUST HAVE. I think they find a way to Nerf rolling LB, couse it was too powerfull, but i think double the cost is too much...
Atm, I have 342 mana regen self buffed, resto specced, + Jetzebell and DC: Illusion that gives me plus 45 mana regen. Probably now, we ll just soft cap haste and focus on mana regen after SP. Probably now we ll just roll LB on MT and bloom it with the other HOTS on OTs.
Using Glyph of LB as the third Glyph
10 sec we will spend more 464 mana
its a 232 mp5 nerf... probably more since with refresh it before 10 seconds.
02/26/09, 8:37 AM
