Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion - Page 20

KatZa · 02/02/09, 8:51 AM

Originally Posted by Arkonos

well I'm far away of being a pro and other people here will give you more exact answers
soft hast cap is something at 200
you should check witch part of you healing lack the most. do you wish you cd was shorter? do you run out of mana? etc
I don't know what you are raiding or what gear you have, but if you started raiding with wotlk as I did, you maybe can improve your healing by playing better

When I was at EoE10 the first time ever, I recognized how week rejuvenation is to heal raid dmg and I'll swap to lifebloom but since I have only ~1800 SP buffed but 1100 mana regg I have to cast LB+REJ in the vortex to keep everyone alive

I don't tell you this because I wan't you to copy my style of plaing(It's far away of being perfect), I tell you this so that you get an idea how flexible healing with a Tree is (and thats the reason I love it) while there are some things that are a must-do

ps:Gift of the Earthmother is a must have since you cast instants most of the time. When you topped hast cap you can take out one point for another. Sacrificing -12% cd after hots doesn't legitimate 3% haste and you can't achieve a dreamstate-HT spamming specc anymore afaik)

I am sorry that can not give link to armory, because our guild has moved armory is not showing (from 16 of Jan).
I was raiding before BC as holy priest (MC, BWL, AQ40, Naxx (4 bosses)), in BC my twink (druid) became main - was raiding a little with her (HS and BT), now raiding Naxx 25.
I have around 2080 HP (self buffed), 20,5% crit, 5% haste, about 360 mp5 when casting.
The idea why I use not often lifebloom is because the style of our healers is spamming more, and pally, shammy (with chain heals) and 3 priests overheal most of the HoTs.

Some of the fights I feel that I am on the border of the OOM, so I use Inner on myself and all is OK.

And I am not casting instants for all of the time, as 60-65% (some fights up to 80%) is Regrowth.

Nitz · 02/02/09, 10:10 AM

When I was at EoE10 the first time ever, I recognized how week rejuvenation is to heal raid dmg and I'll swap to lifebloom but since I have only ~1800 SP buffed but 1100 mana regg I have to cast LB+REJ in the vortex to keep everyone alive

Rejuvenation is better than Lifebloom for raid healing in any way, shape or form. Better HPS, better HPM, better H/GCD and the possibility to Swiftmend it.

Akomos · 02/02/09, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by Nitz

Rejuvenation is better than Lifebloom for raid healing in any way, shape or form. Better HPS, better HPM, better H/GCD and the possibility to Swiftmend it.

I feel like we've had this discussion before.

Also! If your paladins/shamans/priests are healing over your rejuvs, it's an issue with your raid's healing style. It doesn't magically make rejuv a bad raidheal, unless you're bored enough to be racing whack-a-mole raidheals to top the meters because healing is so freaking easy right now. Which is not a terribly useful discussion to be having, tbh. Go do Patch and laugh at how badly you crush the meters if that's your thing. Sheesh.

Personally, I've switched over to RG for raidheals simply because I do have an issue with healing style with RJ

For the life of me I can't get my priest counterpart to pay attention to my HoTs on the raid, so they're relatively useless since he heals over them all the time anyway. If I use RG, OTOH, he goes raidheal-light with just keeping PoM bouncing around and hitting CoH at useful times. Since I have fewer mana issues than he does, this works out well for us since as I've geared into raiding equipment, mana has become more or less a total nonissue (even gemming and enchanting 95% for throughput), using RG/WG almost exclusively for raidhealing is easily supportable.

Protto · 02/03/09, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by Akomos

I feel like we've had this discussion before.

Also! If your paladins/shamans/priests are healing over your rejuvs, it's an issue with your raid's healing style. It doesn't magically make rejuv a bad raidheal, unless you're bored enough to be racing whack-a-mole raidheals to top the meters because healing is so freaking easy right now. Which is not a terribly useful discussion to be having, tbh. Go do Patch and laugh at how badly you crush the meters if that's your thing. Sheesh.

Personally, I've switched over to RG for raidheals simply because I do have an issue with healing style with RJ

For the life of me I can't get my priest counterpart to pay attention to my HoTs on the raid, so they're relatively useless since he heals over them all the time anyway. If I use RG, OTOH, he goes raidheal-light with just keeping PoM bouncing around and hitting CoH at useful times. Since I have fewer mana issues than he does, this works out well for us since as I've geared into raiding equipment, mana has become more or less a total nonissue (even gemming and enchanting 95% for throughput), using RG/WG almost exclusively for raidhealing is easily supportable.

I ran into the same problem as you have; the priests have failed to recognize what a HoT even is. I toss WG and usually use Regrowth. That way, you can still use SM, and you have already healed the target for more from the get-go. LB is nice for fights like Loatheb or Maly before a few seconds before the vortex; I guess you just need to know when to use it. All spells have their own area.

My two cents.

Playered · 02/03/09, 7:48 AM

Why does it matter if other healers heal over your HoTs? by that logic there is no point putting them on tanks because other healers are providing so much direct healing to them that honestly not that many of your ticks go off per cast.
Now that CoH is gone* you have such a smaller chance of things being overhealed that you shouldn't really complain, not to mention that if you keep hitting issues with other healers consistantly healing over your HoTs to a significant degree then you have too many healers.

HoTs are cheap and they are disposable, you should not be expecting to anything like 75% effective healing from them in anything beyond tailored fights to which they shine (Sapphiron, Felmyst..) and if you really care about things being overhealed then use Regrowth or Nourish for the direct heal before other healers 'steal' your healing.

There is going to be <x> amount of healing to be done on certain jobs, if one of you does 60% and the other 40% then it still gets done and you could justify that two people were needed. If one did 90% and another 10% you would be worth considering dropping one of those healers because it's obvious both are not needed.

George · 02/03/09, 9:08 AM

I have to agree with Playered. There are some fights that lend very well to HoT raid healing (e.g. Malygos vortex phase, Sapphiron, etc) where HoT spells alone can keep someone alive without the help of direct heals. If raid damage is bursty though (e.g. Sarth flame crashes, Arcane Barrage during Malygos P2 and the majority of raid damage) you can't expect a priest in that moment of healing to micro-analyze the health situation of each player relative to your HoT spells. You can't forget that your HoT spells have a duration, if a player on 3D sarth has just been hit with a 12k flame crash there might not be time for a priest to even look for a HoT spell let alone analyze whether the remaining duration will apply enough healing or apply the healing fast enough for the situation.

That isn't to say that HoT spells are useless in these situations. I think there is a lot of validity to using HoT spells on the raid in a variety of situations including situations like 3D sarth. I feel that "my HoTs get overhealed by bad priests who don't listen" is an excuse. It could be an excuse to not take a closer look at the healing assignments, an excuse for poor spell choices in a particular situation, or even an excuse for not understanding that it is OK (and even necessary) for HoT spells to be healed over sometimes. I don't think its fair to place blame on other healing classes for what in many cases isn't really an issue at all. When it comes to current raiding content it is more than likely a symptom of healing being too easy/having more healers than are really needed.

Averna2 · 02/03/09, 9:40 AM

Originally Posted by Playered

Why does it matter if other healers heal over your HoTs?

I do agree with you, Playered, but one point to bring up is that if that priest, for example, realizes that there's a HoT on a player, they could hypothetically save some of their mana by just letting it tick and not healing the player up to full.

Granted, this is a completely hypothetical situation. When you see someone at low health, you don't want to just sit there and wait for tick heals, because they could take more damage and die. Also, what priest (or anyone, really, other than a fellow resto druid who has an addon for it) would take the time to look and see if there's a HoT on someone? Takes too much time unless you have an add-on configured.

Unfortunately, the fun of coordinating healing isn't necessary right now. No one really runs out of mana, so why would non-HoT healers save their heals for HoTs to tick? Maybe once we get into an actual mana intensive, difficult instance, this will change.

Akomos · 02/03/09, 12:43 PM

I absolutely agree with Playered. However, my point is that by using RG (or Nourish, e.g. on KT frostbolt volleys) rather than RJ in this situation, the priest or paladin who's looking at his healbot or xperl or grid or whatever will (much of the time) skip over that target and heal someone else or save his mana. In a perfect world, yeah, my healing buddies would recognize my hots and leave those targets alone (which is occasionally the case, e.g. Sapphiron). But RJ is a totally wasted cast in a fair number of raidhealing situations -- for me.

Also yeah, my 25man group consistently brings too many healers. Dual specs can't come soon enough.

Baranak · 02/03/09, 3:30 PM

1) Why're you worried about wasted heals in a healer heavy environment? Do you have mana issues? If your raid depended on your 8k - 2k every 3 second heal, they'd be long dead. That's the nature of HoTing, a lot of it will not fire or get healed over.

2) For KT's frost bolts, why not just Prejuv 10 and heal for 6k a second instead of spamming regrowth? The class is versatile enough that it's a great raid healer and a single target healer. If you're that wary about someone overhealing your HoTs (lol), why not just glyph HT and then spec appropriately?

Akomos · 02/03/09, 3:49 PM

I dunno where you're getting the "omg my hots r getin heald over i ned 2 have btr meter scores!!!1" out of this thread, but that's not the issue.

My point is that with the people I heal with, RJ is in a lot of cases an entirely wasted cast as a raidheal. Using Nourish or RG is a far better solution because it results in much less wasted mana, GCDs, and overheal for the raid as a whole since my co-healers will cancel or skip their casts if they see the healthbar go back up. Prejuving the hell out of the raid is a valid strategy, I guess, but pretty unnecessary for KT frostbolts -- my experience is that I'd be wasting a ton of mana for a fairly low return, given that raid damage in that fight isn't terribly bursty so we're not in danger of losing anyone if it takes 5-10 seconds for someone to get around to dropping a CoH/WG/flash heal/nourish/flash of light on them.

And yeah, my raid brings way too many healers. It's lame and boring =P

smeargle · 02/04/09, 10:26 AM

I don't think it's as much an issue of "zomg meters why cant i beat the pally >.<", but rather a "hmm, where are my heals going and what is actually benefiting the raid?"

I agree with your idea concerning other healers stopping their heal once they see the bar go up, but in the long run it just depends on the fight really. But should anyone really be concerned about "wasted mana" right now? There have even been blue posts about OOM-ness being an almost complete non-issue.

Generally I think, "Ok, is rolling lifebloom on tanks (or lifebloom in general) something important for this fight? Or is spamming RJ on the raid somewhat more viable?" Based on those questions, I'll switch idols and heal accordingly. Since our guild is striving for immortal title, generally it's the RJ relic simply because it's easier to spam RJ for the raid heal and swiftmend possibility. However that doesn't mean RGs don't go out on a relatively every other 2 cast rotation.

At this point, it's just waiting til Ulduar for new healing challenges.

Rhaegal · 02/04/09, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Akomos

I dunno where you're getting the "omg my hots r getin heald over i ned 2 have btr meter scores!!!1" out of this thread, but that's not the issue.

My point is that with the people I heal with, RJ is in a lot of cases an entirely wasted cast as a raidheal. Using Nourish or RG is a far better solution because it results in much less wasted mana, GCDs, and overheal for the raid as a whole since my co-healers will cancel or skip their casts if they see the healthbar go back up.

All this really means is that right now, your other healers are just as bored as you are. (Or they don't understand the fight mechanics, but I'm hoping that's less likely.) If Gluth tank healing, for example, was a much longer, mana intensive process, your disc priest(s) wouldn't be running around spamming Flash Heals on everyone right after a decimate--they'd know they had to budget their mana and they'd trust your HoTs to bring people up, because it's not at all crucial that they be healed in a timely manner. Similarly, I'd trust my tank healers to do their job, and run around throwing Rejuvs like it was going out of style. I fully expect there to be fights in Ulduar where healers have to actually have assignments and stick to them again, or run the risk of failing at their primary function either because they were distracted or OOM. The fact that that's not the case now doesn't mean one or more of our spells are bad, just what people have been saying since November--the content is easy, don't worry about it. Re-evaluate come 3.1.

Strydar · 02/05/09, 4:06 AM

IMO, healing as a druid, or as any class is all about reaction time and a sense of good judgment (using the right skill when needed). I personally think WWS / Recount can successfully tell you who has faster reaction time. Every class has the potential to "top healing charts" on every boss fight (give or take a few exceptions like Patchwerk, where the Paladins *should* top). It just comes from the healer himself.

That being said, I think the best way to differentiate if a healer is "good" or "bad" is to isolate the healer from the others. For example, PvP / Heroics is a good way to tell if a healer has good reaction time or not, and also to see if the healer understands that keeping him/herself alive is really important. (A dead druid during Malygos is a dead druid no matter how well you "could" heal if you were alive).

/2cents

Mazzarus · 02/05/09, 8:20 AM

Originally Posted by Strydar

IMO, healing as a druid, or as any class is all about reaction time and a sense of good judgment (using the right skill when needed). I personally think WWS / Recount can successfully tell you who has faster reaction time. Every class has the potential to "top healing charts" on every boss fight (give or take a few exceptions like Patchwerk, where the Paladins *should* top). It just comes from the healer himself.

That being said, I think the best way to differentiate if a healer is "good" or "bad" is to isolate the healer from the others. For example, PvP / Heroics is a good way to tell if a healer has good reaction time or not, and also to see if the healer understands that keeping him/herself alive is really important. (A dead druid during Malygos is a dead druid no matter how well you "could" heal if you were alive).

/2cents

I agree. Comparing across classes using recount or WWS seems silly to me. Healing is so much more than who had the most effective healing. A druid like myself topping off people above 75% health may be able to top the charts and totally miss key healing situations (like KT ice blocks for example).

However, I do feel that recount/WWS is a good way to measure similar classes/specs. If you have two pallies and one is doing 20% more effective healing consistently, then I would say that is a good indication of the pallies skill.

p.s. Pallies can't beat me on Patchwerk rolling three full stacks of HoTs ;P

• malthrin · 02/05/09, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Mazzarus

I agree. Comparing across classes using recount or WWS seems silly to me.

It's a good thing that log parsers (particularly Stasis) offer a lot more than just a "Total Effective Healing" chart.