Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion - Page 24

George · 02/17/09, 12:08 AM

You can also easily do naxx with <15 DPS so why replace extra healers with extra DPS? Groups bring more healers in order to gear them up and DE less gear. Having extra healers skews the meters but in such an easy environment analyzing healing is always going to be trivial and misleading.

Fallenangel · 02/17/09, 4:32 AM

You can also easily do naxx with <5 healers so why replace extra DPS with extra healers? Groups bring more DPS in order to gear them up and DE less gear. Having extra DPS makes the run faster and in such an easy environment analyzing healing is always going to be trivial and misleading.

Hellebore · 02/17/09, 6:20 AM

Originally Posted by Rijndael

You have too many healers for Naxx (unless you are going for the no death achievement), so healing meters are just measuring who is a better sniper.

Easy guide to topping healing meters as a resto druid:

Step 1: Lifebloom/Rejuv every tank who is taking damage. If you find yourself with spare time, also put Regrowth on them.
Step 2: Is the raid expected to take damage? (Malygos/Thaddius/Maexxna/Sapphiron/Loatheb/Gothik dead side/Kel'Thuzad/etc.) Wild Growth on every cooldown, and blanket the raid with Rejuvs. Modify this step appropriately so you don't run out of mana, but still cover the damage when it happens.
Step 3: PROFIT!

Edit: That isn't to say this is all there is to druid healing, you also want to learn to respond to spikes with Swiftmend, Nature's Swiftness and Nourish, and learn when Regrowth is worth using on the raid. But learning these things will not make a big difference on the meters, though it will make you a far better healer. Also druids have enough spells where there isn't a single good healing style -- some druids use Regrowth as a main spell rather than Rejuv and have good success with that.

Edit2: For reference, here is a recent WWS: Wow Web Stats

Just to back this up, this is a parse from a Sap kill a week before the WG/CoH nerf, I was playing with seeing how many Revjs I could get ticking at the same time and managed to out heal even the CoH spamming priest. As others have said I am in no way saying this is the be all and end all of healing style but you can use it to prove a point. The point I was proving to the other healers was that the WG nerf is nothing like as harsh a nerf to healing output as the CoH nerf is to priests.

Parse here: Wow Web Stats

Inorrri · 02/17/09, 7:15 AM

Originally Posted by Fallenangel

You can also easily do naxx with <5 healers so why replace extra DPS with extra healers? Groups bring more DPS in order to gear them up and DE less gear. Having extra DPS makes the run faster and in such an easy environment analyzing healing is always going to be trivial and misleading.

^ Guy beat me to it.

If healers are good, the outcome of most of the fights will always be the same - boss down without a wipe whether it's 4 healers or 10. Extra DPS, however, will always bring extra damage > faster kill time > less pressure on everybody > smoother runs (this part only works if healers are good).

mandala · 02/17/09, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by Larkhill

some basics first
The World of Warcraft Armory
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Druid -> Talent Calculator
369 haste
2150 sp with majestic figurine up

resto druid healing via glyphed HT.

you dont actually lose your big heal. you actually gain a bigger (and actually faster) heal. the spec revolves around a modified 14/0/57 where you actually do end up taking naturalist and empowered rejuv instead of subtlety and whatever else you decide to do with the useless points (replenish i guess).

the strategy now becomes roll hots on the tank/offtank. wild growth as needed and when you need a big heal, regrowth followed right after by a healing touch. simple.

now heres some numbers for ya. as of doing these tests...im assuming u have the regrowth, swiftmend and healing touch glyphs and regrowth is already on the target. i used myself, only buffs i have are gift. 369 haste. my gcd is 1.348 (1.078 for the heals affected by GOTEM)

worst case scenario:

regrowth hits for 5500. 1.8 seconds
healing touch hits for 5300. 0.9 seconds
swiftmend for 6100

Total amount of heals. 16900
Time to complete cycle- 1.8 + .9 + .5 = 3.2 seconds

the .5 is time u have to wait for your GCD to catch up

so under worse case situations for the cycle, you heal the target for almost 17k, a number healing touch would heal for under best case situations raid buffed. cycle took 0.2 seconds more then a HT would have.

now lets see best case scenario.

regrowth crits for 8300. 1.8 seconds (or 1.2 if u had a natures grace already)
healing touch crits for 8400 0.4 seconds. (or 0.3 if you have one of the 505 haste trinkets or a BL)
swiftmend crits for 11000

Total amount of heals. 27700
Time to complete cycle-

1.8 + .4 + .9 = 3.1 seconds

or if u had a natures grace before starting the cycle:

1.3 + .4 + .9 = 2.6 seconds

the .9 is time u have to wait for your GCD to catch up

as u can see u clearly heal for a lot more then a standard HT would and in a similar (or shorter depending on natures grace procs) amount of time.

now, this is all assuming u do everything on 1 person. what could also happen is u regrowth the tank, then use the .4 second HT on a dps. this way you lose almost no time healing the tank but can still heal the dps in a really quick amount of time cause chances are, they might need it.

i really dont know how this would work for those using standard ui cause the targeting would take too long imo but for the grid/clique or healbot (i use healbot) users, it shouldnt be a problem.

also, i realize this eliminated the use of nourish completely. nourish was, by design, only useful for its speed. by having this new cycle, you have a quicker heal in HT while still retaining your big heal via the cycle i displayed. this effectively makes the t7/5 gear useless as there are better pieces for everything but the gloves (pants are arguable but i like the KT cloth pants or even the sapph cloth pants more).

thoughts? am i missing something?

I said in an earlier post that i thought nourish would become very powerful in 3.1 (just a guess after playing around) due to its low mana and buff to intensity, though after really trying it, Nourish just doesnt do as well as HT. I really tried using nourish in my rotation, but its just not very reliable. Its very RNG versus Glyphed HT (which ive used since 3.0 and have LOVED and defended intensly) Seeing this really shows its power, and reassures me that im not a noob for using HT glpyhed (ZOMG U LOZES UR NS+HT!) which... ns +ht is ok, but more or less becomes overheal... with HT glyphed i use NS + regrowth--just in case my regrowth is going to fall off i can refresh it real fast (or NS+Regrowth+ swiftmend if i really needed)

After really thinking, in ulduar is there going to be another set bonus with nourish to make it better and worthwhile or possibly a glyph? i currently have Headpiece of reconcilliation, Leggings of mortal arrogance, Spaulders of catatonia, so i dont really want to use t7.5, just because best in slot = best in slot.
I think if nourish had more talents (like combine imp regrowth to include nourish, thatd be sweet) or a glyph it might be viable. I mean, who is going to wear t7.5 in ulduar for set bonus?

CowTree · 02/17/09, 11:48 AM

StolenLegacy,
About the too many healers thing, you are running that Gluth fight way too slowly, he actually enrages at the very end of your first attempt. You guys really want to get him down in 5 minutes or less and you're going over 7. Here's an example of 5 healers doing that same fight in 3:22. Wow Web Stats We had a ret pally and a prot warrior in the back, I don't know why he was back there at all, but whatever. This was a joint guild run to test a merger, so the make up was not good, and the damage was not what it usually is. If you look later in the report you'll see we did not get Thad down that evening, because of lack of dps (tired people dying on the first shock didn't help). So, all I'm trying to say is, being heavy on heals can and will hurt your raid, on some occasions.

As for your healing, I would go along with Inorrri. And, have some faith in your Rejuvs.

If you were wondering, the merger happened...

ArTyman · 02/17/09, 2:43 PM

Hi, this is my first time ever replying to this site, and i have been reading this thread for awhile. I have just a few requests to the more experienced healers.

Remember also that my Druid is an average geared Druid, i dont have the whole t7 set, but the point is to beable to be efficient enuff to do the raids and dungeons i need to do to acquire all of it. and if you want to look at my spec, stats or gear, and give me some helpful tips would be nice, the name is Dooms server-Kilrog.

From what I understand the healing that you do depends on your healing roll in your group, for instance in a 5man group you would use just about all of your heals HT, Nourish, regrowth, wg etc.

In a 10 man group with 3 healers, well that simply depends on your roll, which my roll has been generally healing the raid and helping the other 2 healers who have only the tanks to keep up. While I am not the best geared in our guild I am one of the most reliable healers in our guild they can rely on me to take a job and do my best with it, while working with the other healers to complete our goals.

My main heals for that roll are WG, LB, and RJ for raid heals which generally depending on how im feeling if someone is dropping quickly in the group an the WG hasnt reached them or isnt enuff I will apply a LB, and RJ which is usually enuff for dps an if they need more i'll use nourish since the majority of dps 8k will be almost half a bar which is where i see nourish come in handy as being a quick heal for low HP teamates.

For my off healing on tanks i usually try to keep all my hotts up on main tank, and when the off tank is taking damage i do the same for him, however i dont see nourish as being any help with healing tanks being how high there HP is, in my eyes your only wastin your time with nourishs on tanks unless it is a last resort and you dont have the time for HT, but in my case as being a back up healer for tanks I tend to trust in the tanks main healer and take the extra time to cast a HT on the tank to give the healer a little break then i return to group healing, and juggle this back and forth to the best of my ability.

The mathmatics of how I play is not planned out on a calculator and the talents I have specked into I am constantly second guessing my self. Is how i'm playing the correct way? Is the talents i have selected inefficient? I am just looking for general answers not the answers that take algebra knowledge. altho i appreciate the pple that take the time to figure out the exact differences with haste, and the effects of that on your healing timers, and the over all differences with our heals. For without you guys everyone would just be guessing

.

Vazu · 02/17/09, 3:32 PM

Originally Posted by caduber

That's exactly what I'm trying to determine: Whether we have some weak healers or if the meters are just not very indicative of healing ability.

Meters are a sloppy and inconsistent way to judge how your healers are doing.

There's just way too much overhealing right now. People aren't forced to conserve at all. The only real way you can judge healers right now is to look at fights where you're losing people to damage they can't avoid. If you come down from a vortex on Malygos and several people are dead, something is wrong and it's on the healers to adjust. Judging your healers is mostly about comparing their job vs. the job of another healer for a specific fight. Anticipation and awareness are the cornerstones of quality healing. Right before a lava churn on three drakes Sartharion (for example), a resto Druid has to know that for a brief moment while everyone is moving, the tank may receive a huge spike in damage. Not only are we watching everyone's health bars, but now I'm getting to my safe spot and I'm ready to Swiftmend the tank if needed. Good healers aren't good because they top meters. They're good because they know exactly how their specific class can contribute for every single boss fight in the game. I would challenge anyone who wants to get better to see themselves in the role of a raid leader. If you were setting up healing, how would you assign yourself? Giving quality feedback to your officers and making respectful recommendations is what seperates good guilds from great guilds in terms of the quality of their healers. It's just very rarely about numbers like DPS is.

caduber · 02/17/09, 5:42 PM

Originally Posted by Vazu

It's just very rarely about numbers like DPS is.

Point taken. Reason I posted OS25+2D is that it is a fight where we consistently lose people. Maly 25 has been problematic recently as well, primarily in terms of raid healing. The reason why I'm pursuing this sort of inquiry is that as a raid healer, and as someone who has studied the encounters and feels relatively self-confident, I'm questioning some of the deaths, wipes, etc. that are clearly healing issues. I understand that you can only compare apples and apples. But if I can't compare a raid-healing druid with a raid-healing Shaman, then how do I assess the capability of the Shaman?

If I'm belaboring this point I apologize. It's a point of contention that I'm dying to clear up, because I feel like this attitude that meters mean nothing for healers could be breeding complacency.

downnola · 02/17/09, 7:02 PM

Originally Posted by caduber

Point taken. Reason I posted OS25+2D is that it is a fight where we consistently lose people. Maly 25 has been problematic recently as well, primarily in terms of raid healing. The reason why I'm pursuing this sort of inquiry is that as a raid healer, and as someone who has studied the encounters and feels relatively self-confident, I'm questioning some of the deaths, wipes, etc. that are clearly healing issues. I understand that you can only compare apples and apples. But if I can't compare a raid-healing druid with a raid-healing Shaman, then how do I assess the capability of the Shaman?

If I'm belaboring this point I apologize. It's a point of contention that I'm dying to clear up, because I feel like this attitude that meters mean nothing for healers could be breeding complacency.

Meters can be deceiving in my opinion. You can have someone that is good at padding meters, but can often be more worried about tossing out as many hots as they can and wind up neglecting the tank at critical moments. It doesn't tell the whole story like Recount can for DPS classes, and that's why I personally don't put much thought into healing meters. I use them and keep an eye on them, but only to see what other people are doing. I'll check the spell graphs and spell hit counts to see if someone is just plain being inefficient. However, to rely on it for anything other then that isn't typically a good idea, unless of course a healer is overhealing by a large margin and is sitting at the bottom of the barrel in effective healing done.

calderstrake · 02/17/09, 7:08 PM

Originally Posted by ArTyman

From what I understand the healing that you do depends on your healing roll in your group, for instance in a 5man group you would use just about all of your heals HT, Nourish, regrowth, wg etc.

In a 10 man group with 3 healers, well that simply depends on your roll, which my roll has been generally healing the raid and helping the other 2 healers who have only the tanks to keep up. While I am not the best geared in our guild I am one of the most reliable healers in our guild they can rely on me to take a job and do my best with it, while working with the other healers to complete our goals.

My main heals for that roll are WG, LB, and RJ for raid heals which generally depending on how im feeling if someone is dropping quickly in the group an the WG hasnt reached them or isnt enuff I will apply a LB, and RJ which is usually enuff for dps an if they need more i'll use nourish since the majority of dps 8k will be almost half a bar which is where i see nourish come in handy as being a quick heal for low HP teamates.

For my off healing on tanks i usually try to keep all my hotts up on main tank, and when the off tank is taking damage i do the same for him, however i dont see nourish as being any help with healing tanks being how high there HP is, in my eyes your only wastin your time with nourishs on tanks unless it is a last resort and you dont have the time for HT, but in my case as being a back up healer for tanks I tend to trust in the tanks main healer and take the extra time to cast a HT on the tank to give the healer a little break then i return to group healing, and juggle this back and forth to the best of my ability.

The mathmatics of how I play is not planned out on a calculator and the talents I have specked into I am constantly second guessing my self. Is how i'm playing the correct way? Is the talents i have selected inefficient? I am just looking for general answers not the answers that take algebra knowledge. altho i appreciate the pple that take the time to figure out the exact differences with haste, and the effects of that on your healing timers, and the over all differences with our heals. For without you guys everyone would just be guessing

.

I'll comment on some of this.

I only use HT in a macro with Nature's Swiftness; I don't even have HT on a skill bar at all. I think this spell is useful only on fights where hots heal the boss (Dalliah the Doomsayer).

Not every resto Druid thinks [Glyph of Regrowth] is a must-have. Nourish is the perfect spell to use when you have LB, RJ and RG on the tank and he needs a direct heal. In long fights when the damage is predictable, I will also put up WG before I Nourish for maximum effect of 4pc t7. For those that don't have the bonus yet, this may not be the best option.

The way I see it, if a resto druid is in the raid, at the bare minimum, there should be a LB stack + RJ on the MT. If not, then you aren't playing to the class/spec's full potential. If you have a Priest in the raid, I feel they are superior raid healers and you should focus more on tanks. It takes a well-coordinated group of healers for the Druid to raid heal effectively because most healers get anxious and snipe your heals. This is why we should always heal the tanks even if only a little to reduce the spike damage and make the healing smoother overall.

ArTyman · 02/18/09, 1:30 PM

thx for the reply swiftmend is one spell i dont use to often I will try to integrate it into my healing.

BTW i've used macro's on a very basic level could you tell me some handy macro's and how to write the code?

ithecho84 · 02/18/09, 2:20 PM

Originally Posted by trismegistus

I'll comment on some of this.

I only use HT in a macro with Nature's Swiftness; I don't even have HT on a skill bar at all. I think this spell is useful only on fights where hots heal the boss (Dalliah the Doomsayer).

Not every resto Druid thinks [Glyph of Regrowth] is a must-have. Nourish is the perfect spell to use when you have LB, RJ and RG on the tank and he needs a direct heal. In long fights when the damage is predictable, I will also put up WG before I Nourish for maximum effect of 4pc t7. For those that don't have the bonus yet, this may not be the best option.

The way I see it, if a resto druid is in the raid, at the bare minimum, there should be a LB stack + RJ on the MT. If not, then you aren't playing to the class/spec's full potential. If you have a Priest in the raid, I feel they are superior raid healers and you should focus more on tanks. It takes a well-coordinated group of healers for the Druid to raid heal effectively because most healers get anxious and snipe your heals. This is why we should always heal the tanks even if only a little to reduce the spike damage and make the healing smoother overall.

I am of the opinion that because of Imp. Regrowth, it will always be the better option compared to Nourish. This may change if our mana situation absolutely bites the dust in the future patch, but there's seriously no reason to ever use Nourish in my mind. Of course, this is under the impression that you have the Glyph of Regrowth. I keek up LB, RJ, and RG on the tank(s) so Glyph of RG is pretty much a necessity.

Noressa · 02/18/09, 2:23 PM

WWS and death reports can easily let you know who is healing at not the right time. If a tank dies and you see no heals, then the druid is being Bad. If the tank dies and you read x hot ticks over the duration, then your druids are at least doing the minimum and your other healers need to be looked at.

Smoothie · 02/18/09, 2:37 PM

Originally Posted by trismegistus

I only use HT in a macro with Nature's Swiftness; I don't even have HT on a skill bar at all. I think this spell is useful only on fights where hots heal the boss (Dalliah the Doomsayer).

I've been wanting to do this, but I haven't been able to make it work (only the NS is being cast). Can you share your macro, please?