Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion - Page 29

Dey · 02/25/09, 7:17 AM

From my experience with Regrowth and Nourish is that Regrowth glyph is bad for raid healing since most people you'd heal with a regrowth won't have it before, and if they have it and you're using 4x T7 it's much better and faster to use Nourish. However, Nourish could work for raid healing since you will be spreading Wild Growths around as well as Lifeblooms and Rejuvinations.
And for MT healing, Nourish wins by far, not just that it works greatly with T7 bonus, but it's also much more HPM if we take into account the talents reducing Nourish mana cost. Plus, if you're using Nourish for MT healing, you can ditch Nature's Grace since with Nourish you'll still be limited by the GCD.
Add to that Nourish gets 4% more critical strike rating from Nature's Majesty, and that's more Living Seed procs and more healing in general.

kywirelessguy · 02/25/09, 9:42 AM

I think you are underestimating the regrowth hot though. Even if you're not getting the 20% bonus you are leaving a hot to tick which can also be swiftmended if damage continues. And you can't rely on wild growth as your nourish bonus when its not always going to end up on the targets you want.

I just don't feel like nourish is a good 25 man raid heal. For 10 mans/Heroics when you don't have a pally/priest it might be worthwhile, but in 25 man's you should have a pally/priest to fulfill that direct healing role, leaving the druids to do what they do best, spam hots/wg's on the raid. Even on a fight like patchwerk I'm rolling hots on all the tanks rather than picking one to spam heal. Thats what the other healers are for.

Avarice · 02/25/09, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Norfair

Blizzard has stated that in order to use dual spec, players should use a Lexicon of Power, which can be created by inscribers and used by anyone. Therefore it is safe to assume that changing glyphs in the field will be a possiblity.

This is no longer true. Switching from spec to spec now only requires a 5 second casttime spell, that can only be used out-of-combat. They also made other changes such as it being available as of level 40.

The lexicon of power is not yet introduced, but Blizzard is still considering implementing it. But it will not be a requirement for switching specs.

Nitz · 02/25/09, 11:56 AM

Or it could be so switching specs on the PTR is easy, easier than what's intended on Live.

Najtrok · 02/25/09, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Avarice

This is no longer true. Switching from spec to spec now only requires a 5 second casttime spell, that can only be used out-of-combat. They also made other changes such as it being available as of level 40.

The lexicon of power is not yet introduced, but Blizzard is still considering implementing it. But it will not be a requirement for switching specs.

I think this is an exclusive PTR situation, since they want you to test the dual specs and have fewer restrictions for more intense testing.

Mawic · 02/25/09, 1:07 PM

Originally Posted by Norfair

Neck:
[Life-Binder's Locket] (best in slot)
[Chains of Adoration] (haste alternative)

I'm curious why I hardly ever see the [Wyrmrest Necklace of Power] suggested as a possible best in slot neck piece. It seems like hands-down winner.

Sure it's a dps piece, but compared to the Chains of Adoration it's got more stam/int/haste and more spellpower thanks to the gem slot. The hit on the Wyrmrest necklace is wasted, but I'd argue that the mp5 on the Chains of Adoration isn't much better. 3.1 may change the equation, but right now mana just isn't an issue.

And the best reason in my case... on nights when I need to switch to Boomkin, I've got a single item that's BiS for both specs.

Edit: Vs. Life-Binder's, I guess it just comes down to whether or not 43 haste > 35 crit + 16 mp5. I like the haste.

Playered · 02/25/09, 1:24 PM

Originally Posted by Mawic

I'm curious why I hardly ever see the [Wyrmrest Necklace of Power] suggested as a possible best in slot neck piece. It seems like hands-down winner.

Sure it's a dps piece, but compared to the Chains of Adoration it's got more stam/int/haste and more spellpower thanks to the gem slot. The hit on the Wyrmrest necklace is wasted, but I'd argue that the mp5 on the Chains of Adoration isn't much better. 3.1 may change the equation, but right now mana just isn't an issue.

And the best reason in my case... on nights when I need to switch to Boomkin, I've got a single item that's BiS for both specs.

Except that the healer version is BiS without undeniably useless stats such as hit rating and you cannot have both (not to mention yellow socket is better than blue socket).
Grats if you want a BiS DPS neck which is also ok for healing but that does not suddenly change the fact you can only have one of the two items and the one for healing is better for healing.

Lord BEEF · 02/25/09, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by Fallenangel

The choice of glyphs depends on what your role is, as dictated by raid composition and the encounter.

That to me is a sign that they're all pretty well designed. We get actual choices to make.

I think this does allow us the flexibility to be a very solid tank healer. If 4pc T7 works with the new glyph, on a typical tank with three hots it would get an additional 33% (15+18) boost, crit for around 40%+ of the time, and crits that leave a seed that works even if there's overheal. That's pretty darn good.

I still doubt many druids will be tank healers, but it's nice to have the option

Amijay3 · 02/25/09, 4:09 PM

Mathcrafting is not my strong point. However I have the following questions if anyone is so inclined to give them a look or give me a simple equation i can easily enough figure out myself.

Please disregard T7 bonus as I don't wear 4 pieces of T7.5 and unless it is being added to T8 as well I don't see that changing.

If so inclined figuring for both with and without the Nourish / Regrowth glyphs would be great.

1. How much will Nourish Hit for on average if there is 0 Hot, 1 Hot, 2 Hots, 3 Hots, 4 Hots, on the target.

2. How much will Nourish Crit for on average if there is 0 Hot, 1 Hot, 2 Hots, 3 Hots, 4 Hots, on the target.

3. What would the New Nourish's crit percentage be from talents / from full Raid Buffs? (I want to compare it with what I already have in a reliable Regrowth crit)

My feeling is that Nourish will pull far ahead on tank healing, but leave us wanting in terms of random dude needs a direct heal situation. As I rarely MT heal, I am very upset about my reliable critting Regrowth being nerfed and would love to see the numbers behind the "New Nourish."

Vazu · 02/25/09, 4:10 PM

Originally Posted by Lord BEEF

That to me is a sign that they're all pretty well designed. We get actual choices to make.

I think this does allow us the flexibility to be a very solid tank healer. If 4pc T7 works with the new glyph, on a typical tank with three hots it would get an additional 33% (15+18) boost, crit for around 40%+ of the time, and crits that leave a seed that works even if there's overheal. That's pretty darn good.

I still doubt many druids will be tank healers, but it's nice to have the option

The trouble with Nourish is that it's really not great for anything other than tank healing. Further, for it to be most efficient, I think players would want 5/5 in Tranquil Spirit - Spell - World of Warcraft for the mana reduction. Also, I think it really restricts that Druid healer from doing anything else. Obviously you could throw a Wild Growth on the tank and have it (maybe) hit melee. But apart from that, for Nourish to be good you'd need a few rolling HOTs up. Regrowth is just (even post nerf) so far superior in every way because it doesn't really demand that you're healing only one target. Plus because the HOT lasts so long, you can Swiftmend it. I donno. I really want to like Nourish. I don't think it's a bad spell. I just think glyphed Regrowth is so much better for overall raid utility. We really didn't need a flash heal. Investing 5 talent points to get the most out of Nourish means most players will have to spec out of something else, like Living Seed or Revitalize. Both of which are much improved in this next patch.

I'm guessing most resto Druids will spec Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft or something close to that for 3.1.

Rijndael · 02/25/09, 4:20 PM

Originally Posted by Vazu

The trouble with Nourish is that it's really not great for anything other than tank healing. Further, for it to be most efficient, I think players would want 5/5 in Tranquil Spirit - Spell - World of Warcraft for the mana reduction. Also, I think it really restricts that Druid healer from doing anything else. Obviously you could throw a Wild Growth on the tank and have it (maybe) hit melee. But apart from that, for Nourish to be good you'd need a few rolling HOTs up. Regrowth is just (even post nerf) so far superior in every way because it doesn't really demand that you're healing only one target. Plus because the HOT lasts so long, you can Swiftmend it. I donno. I really want to like Nourish. I don't think it's a bad spell. I just think glyphed Regrowth is so much better for overall raid utility. We really didn't need a flash heal. Investing 5 talent points to get the most out of Nourish means most players will have to spec out of something else, like Living Seed or Revitalize. Both of which are much improved in this next patch.

I'm guessing most resto Druids will spec Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft or something close to that for 3.1.

Nourish is faster. Even on the currently easy encounters, there are many situations where shaving 0.5 seconds off a direct heal is very helpful: Kel'thuzad, Sarth with 3 drakes, etc. On the other hand, there are very very few situations where I cast Regrowth on a raid target that already has the Regrowth hot ticking. This tends to happen on tanks (where the extra 20% will just go to overheal 99% of the time), or maybe on Sapp, where Regrowth tends to overheal a lot anyways as it's used for the HOT portion. In general in raids the vast majority of Regrowth healing for me is not the direct healing, which is making me question the utility of the Regrowth glyph even in this patch.

Re: tranquil spirit. I think it is a weak talent. Here's the problem with it: even with the buffs to Nourish in 3.1, we aren't going to be using it like paladins use Flash of Light, we have a ton of other spells to use. If only 25% of your mana is spent on Nourish, Tranquil Spirit becomes quite weak for the talent point investment, considering the alternatives (Nature's Grace, or Living Seed, or Revitalize).

Edit: I mostly agree with your spec come 3.1 (I would move the Emp. HT point and 1 Subtlety point into Tranquil Spirit, but it's a matter of taste really), and I would use Swiftmend, Nourish, and Wild Growth glyphs with it.

Playered · 02/25/09, 4:28 PM

Tranquil Spirit should be a 5/10/15% like Improved Healing from Priests quite honestly (potentially with the Nourish from Moonglow being removed) in order to make it a viable talent and an attractive one but that's really just one small refinement which isn't of anything importance.

The lost 25% crit chance on RG as a raid heal will not doom it into obscurity as for the most part if you spammed it for the direct heal you were doing it wrong and you should have been using it for the combination of the direct and the hot aspect together.

Fallenangel · 02/25/09, 5:14 PM

Fact is regrowth is (was?) the best spell you have when raid-healing on someone that's already below 70% or so. Saying it's "doing it wrong" while we have no real alternative is odd at best.

Rijndael · 02/25/09, 5:22 PM

Originally Posted by Fallenangel

Fact is regrowth is (was?) the best spell you have when raid-healing on someone that's already below 70% or so. Saying it's "doing it wrong" while we have no real alternative is odd at best.

Really? I am sure Regrowth is not a bad raid healing spell but there's certainly no consensus on it being best. A lot of druids use a combination of Rejuvenation and Wild Growth for a lot of their raid healing. I do the vast majority of my raid healing that way, and it is very effective. (I use Regrowth too, of course, it's just not my main raid healing spell.) The "no real alternative" thing is just wrong, sorry.

edit: I should say more about Regrowth vs Rejuv for raid healing, I think. As we all know, healing is an art, not a science. It is not about maximizing a single number like HPS. Being Regrowth heavy vs Rejuv heavy for raid healing gets at one of the fundamental tradeoffs in healing, which I term "easing pressure" vs "responding to spikes." Damage patterns broadly fall into two categories: "a lot of damage quickly" (spike), and "continuous damage slowly" (pressure). Different healer classes have different strengths and strategies for responding to these damage types. Obviously druids are good pressure responders, but they also have spike tools like fast direct heals and swiftmend. I think the reason there is no consensus on raid healing for druids is different druids run in different raid setups. Some raids have a lot of 'spike healers' so it is better for a druid to respond to pressure with Rejuv, while others have more 'pressure healers' so they need to respond to spikes more with Regrowth. Regrowth is both a pressure spell (because of the hot component) and a spike spell (because of the direct healing component), but it has an opportunity cost as a pressure spell vs Rejuv because of the cast time.

I am more of a pressure healer because I am the only resto druid in my raid full of priests and paladins, so a Rejuv-heavy "easing pressure strategy" works very well for me.

Norfair · 02/25/09, 5:44 PM

Using a hot on a low target is a waste as it's overhealed within 2-3 seconds, only Wild Growth is worth the gcd since it ticks a few times on several targets. It has always been Regrowth versus Nourish. Regrowth "wins" because it crits 50%, meaning not only more healing, but also more Living Seed and more Nature's Grace. In 3.1 all these benefits gets reduced and Nourish gets every benefit of these as well. It was already close between Nourish and Regrowth, I think Nourish now wins hands down. They already heal for about the same amount. Quick pros versus cons:

Nourish pros:
- 0.5 sec faster
- almost half as cheap
- Nourish scales better with spellpower than Regrowth
- Nourish gets a 20% buff on all hots while Regrowth only gets this on the Regrowth hot (which also will cost you a glyph slot btw).

Nourish cons:
- doesn't leave a hot that can be swiftmended
- gives clumsy sub-1.0 casttime after crits (could decide to use Regrowth when NG is up though)

For me the choice is crystal clear at least.