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Old 03/09/09, 11:30 AM   #661
Norfair
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Grim Batol (EU)
Originally Posted by MystRayne View Post
Has anyone calculated the difference on mana regen between Darkmoon Card: Greatness (taking into account the 45-sec internal cooldown) and the Majestic Dragon Figurine.

I am finding that the Majestic Dragon Figurine does give me 180 extra spirit for 10 seconds whilst casting, but surely if I gain a constant 90 spirit as base with the Darkmoon Card: Greatness, and on top of that the proc of 300 for 15 sec, it would mean greater mana regen. Is anyone able to confirm whether in fact, I am calculating this correctly.
If I have to believe the wowhead comments, the greatness cards will have a ~33% uptime at best, meaning on average an extra 100 spirit. This is 190 spirit on average as compared to 180 of MDF, so they are about similar if you count in "late procs" and such.

However, the MDF will give you a more constant spellpower buff compared to the greatness card, which for healing is a plus. Then again in 3.1 Innervate won't give you a full mana bar anymore, so then you can get more mana out of the greatness trinket if you use Innervate during a proc.


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Old 03/09/09, 12:17 PM   #662
Playered
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
You should use the Intellect version (with Spirit proc) for the Darkmoon Card too but all this information should be in the trinket thread.

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Old 03/09/09, 10:01 PM   #663
bubblecannon
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Khaz'goroth
After finally downing 10+3 and having to burn two innervates during the fight, I think they really need to reconsider these changes. During trivial content I must admit that I find healing a bit of a joke, but during 10+3 I was mostly GCD locked and had to pot + innervate as soon as off cooldown. Does GC have a position on the healing classes during challenging content? (eg. 10+3?) I'd not be keen to do this fight once 3.1 goes live TBH unless it gets nerfed a little.

Slow stacking LB may be viable, but the drop in HPS at certain points can force you to get stuck inside a RG/Nourish spam to keep your tanks alive (eg. for the few seconds of drake overlap right when whelps spawn / torment debuff). At these points, if your LB stack drops you can get stuck having to just use spam heals to keep your tanks up without the time spare to restart your LB stack.

(Note: I was solo healing drake+adds tank + main raid healing with RJ/WG on spare GCDs)

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Old 03/10/09, 12:17 AM   #664
red
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Tauren Druid
 
Laughing Skull
On Sartharion 10+3, I definitely agree with your assessment of GCD lock and often not having time to restack LB if you let it drop off. However, I don't think I have quite the mana troubles you do. I use 1 pot if nothing has gone wrong by the time the 3rd drake lands, and usually I have to blow Innervate when dps is working on the 3rd drake. I still have plenty of mana by the end of the fight though, after Innervate. Maybe it's because we have different roles.

We run with a holy paladin who heals the drake and add tanks with beacon, while I heal the Sarth tank and the raid. Mostly I just keep up LB/RJ on the tank, with HT after breaths. For the raid I heal with RJ, or WG during Twilight Torment. I actually heal the fight specced for Healing Touch with the glyph. Since mana isn't a serious issue, I really enjoy being able to land my heals less than a second after casting; it's saved people many times.

Being that we're in GCD lock for the fight, The regen changes won't affect our performance. However, the Lifebloom change may take some adjusting. Either we 1) let LB bloom and restack for a loss of GCD and/or HPS, 2) we take a significant mana hit by keeping LB rolling, or 3) we don't use LB at all. Personally I'm leaning toward options 1 or 3 for 10+3.

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Old 03/10/09, 1:38 AM   #665
Zuel
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Burning Legion
Why would you do OS103D after 3.1 hits? I guess there's still the drake, but apart from that there's no reason to continue to do that headache of a fight.

We'll have to change our healing style when there are multiple tanks, since it's really no longer viable to roll a stack on more than one, maybe two at a time. We can make up for this in other ways since our spellbook isn't limited to just the one heal, but I don't think it will change so drastically that we drop lifebloom entirely out of our arsenal. It's still a good spell, it's just no longer the one button cure-all it is right now.

I also don't know why we're talking about letting a 3 stack bloom and then reapplying it. A completely unpredictable 10k heal is never as good as a constant 1300+ tick, and keeping a 3 stack on one tank isn't overly taxing on your mana pool. I like the new bloom, but I still see letting a stack fall off as an error on my part.

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Old 03/10/09, 4:14 AM   #666
Baranak
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Proudmoore
Am I missing a point or is the end result of casting and letting it bloom slightly more efficient for mana purposes (assuming bloom) than it is now?

Having not raided as a resto druid until 3.0 might have helped my experiences because I don't really see Lifebloom as that great of a spell. The other side to this is that I'm usually healing raid and very rarely healing tanks unless it's Sarth, so I don't really bloom as much as some of the people here. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm thinking that slow stacking isn't/won't be necessary. Even if you roll bloom on two tanks now it doesn't really tax mana. So I'm just going to state outright that rolling Bloom (currently on live) on two tanks isn't a problem and therefore come 3.1, even keeping it up on 1 tank will be fine. As it stands now, it fits a niche well now (only used as a buffer, great for keeping up tanks who take spiky damage).

So the two relevant questions that come into mind would be am I struggling for mana and is Lifebloom required to be kept on multiple tanks at once? In current content right now, will that change much? I can only think of two fights where there is enough spiky damage to validate multiple bloom roll, Patchwerk and Sarth3d. In both cases, there is another healer there to help and I usually end up throwing a RJ&RG and that's enough to help with the second tank I help heal. For Patchwerk, I am always on the add tank and act more as a buffer using blooms for hatefuls. With two tanks, I roll bloom on the first tank more as a courtesy (and to pad charts), than what is really needed to be honest. Even in an optimized fight where it pretty much will tick every second on two ticks, it came out second for my breakdown behind me spamming regrowth like a madman. This number should've been less as one of our MT healers DC'd before pull. More on Sarth below.

As for the first question, with this change would changing healing styles really be necessary (for mana purposes)? As a raid healer (most of the time), the most mana taxing fights for myself are:
1) Maly
2) First half of Sarth 3d
3) Saphiron
The things these three have in common is that I'm mostly Pre-RJing every GCD and that there is a lot of raid damage that occur constantly. Lifebloom will not affect how I heal in either case 1 and 3, but for 2 it's a little tricky. The only reason Sarth3D is tough for myself is that I spend time bouncing between both the add and drake tanks and focus more on what needs more help (too many adds or both drakes down) as well as try to RJ the raid when I can. For the 30 or so seconds when both drakes are up and the OT has a lot of adds on him is usually the hardest part for me to heal, but I don't think it so unbearably mana intensive that I will need to slow stack/ let blooms fall off for the 30 seconds required to down them.

So what will the Lifebloom change mean for me? Nothing. It will neither affect my playstyle (heavily RJ oriented), my healing priorities (needing to keep a stack on a tank constantly, 2 if I foresee big damage incoming). As far as the death of multiple tank blooming goes, unless there is a fight that is long and heavy consistent raid and multiple tank damage, I wouldn't worry about it yet.

The only thing I'm confused about is didn't they say previously that they wanted us to continue to roll blooms and that they didn't want giant chunks of mana to come back at once (a la pre-replenish days)? Wouldn't the simpler solution just to have been if bloom gave us a smaller percentage (say 5%) every tick (max at 10 ticks, thus 50% return) rather than a giant 1000ish return after 30 seconds (assuming slow stacked)? It would actually require some sort of attention in contrast to the fire and forget method... a role that RJ quite handily occupies for me right now. Assuming the change goes through, wasting 3 GCDs every 13 seconds seems like a very poor design choice.

Last edited by Baranak : 03/10/09 at 4:38 AM. Reason: clarity issues

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Old 03/10/09, 4:49 AM   #667
Feralkin
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Bronze Dragonflight (EU)
The only thing that i am worried about is the timing on letting the Bloom drop. Its really nice if the tank just took 20k and it blooms before the 1.5sec Holy light comes in from the holy paly, but that very limited situational heal is near impossible to control. Maexena is one place that it can be used, time it to bloom on the Main Tank while everyone is stunned. Or if you are the only healer on a certain assignment and all other healers are GCD locked on their assignments. But the only place that happens is in really tough 10 man fights where the number of healers is limited, like sarth3d 10man with 2 healers.

Even Sarth3d 25man there are not a lot of occasions where every healer is GCD locked. So a cover heal is bound to come in from someone else even if you are assigned to that tank. This is not a problem as the healing team as a whole needs to help where they can if their own assignments are not taking huge damage. But it does force us into a very bad situation with LB.

Someone above did the Napkin math on it, after Lifebloom reaches its 3rd stack, refreshing it starts to increase its Mana per cast drastically. If your tank takes a huge spike of dmg at 5 seconds left on lifebloom, then you will not wait for it to bloom, you are going to swiftmend/nourish spam to top him off. 4 seconds later your tank is full so you are not letting it bloom but you are refreshing it again. Efficiency starts to drop dramatically.

The problem with telling yourself that you are going to let it bloom when there is minimal overheal, is that you get into a pattern. every 9 seconds you do a check on the HP of you target. If it is full you refresh. Every time you refresh after the first 3rd stack, you are wasting 360 odd mana that you cannot get back from the bloom effect. The other side of the coin is to always allow a bloom at the 3rd stack regardless of the targets current Health Points. 90% of the time that will be an overheal of 80+%. So its efficiency drops drastically as efficiency must not be calculated on raw heal but effective heal.

Personally i will be using Lifebloom to take advantage of the 4T7 set bonus on Noursih and the proposed glyph. Keeping regrowth and rejuv on the target, and applying 1 lifebloom then nourish either until i have to refresh another hot or until lifebloom drops off to re-apply it. I see very limited use of 3stacked bombs with paly healers around. And they are far too restricting on unpredictable damage.

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Old 03/10/09, 10:17 AM   #668
Rijndael
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Dwarf Priest
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Feralkin View Post
Personally i will be using Lifebloom to take advantage of the 4T7 set bonus on Nourish and the proposed glyph. Keeping regrowth and rejuv on the target, and applying 1 lifebloom then nourish either until i have to refresh another hot or until lifebloom drops off to re-apply it. I see very limited use of 3stacked bombs with paly healers around. And they are far too restricting on unpredictable damage.
If you are doing that, you might as well slow-stack to 3 (e.g. reapply up to 3 stacks as lifebloom is about to drop, but then let it drop at 3 and start again), it's more HPS for the same mana cost (and only 2 extra GCDs per 24-27 seconds).

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Old 03/10/09, 10:32 AM   #669
Playered
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
I assume their intended level of healers for 10 mans was 3 so if you are finding doing it with 2 healers is a struggle which will become near impossible in 3.1 then I would think it is slightly intended. If you believe it will be near impossible with 3 healers then that is another story but I do not believe it will be that much of an issue there.

Not only this but the majority (if not all) current means of doing Sarth3D is cheesing a chunk of the encounter by brute forcing several aspects of it.

Last edited by Playered : 03/10/09 at 11:09 AM.

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Old 03/10/09, 10:42 AM   #670
Fallenangel
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Chromaggus (EU)
It was stated that 10 man raids are balanced around 3 healers. In fact I believe that resto druids are targetted specifically to push for the 3 healer setup since we excel at healer-low environments due to the high HPS and HPM of hots. We'll see how effective that is, especially with external mana sources - namely feral druid innervating a tree, or stacking DPS shamans for mana spring (that stacks, right?). I wouldn't be surprised to see innervate becoming self cast sometime in the near future.

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Old 03/10/09, 11:03 AM   #671
atliens
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Stonemaul
PTR Field Testing: XT-002 Deconstructor (Heroic)

I'll be the first to admit I was extremely worried about the LB nerf on top of the OO5SR nerf. But after downing Deconstructor on the 3rd attempt, most of my worries are relieved. I rolled LB/RJ/RG on the MT only and raid healed. As for mana, it got a little tight at the end on the last two attempts so I switched to slow-stacking LB when the boss was around 10%. I never ended any attempt completely OOM and gave away my innervate to a boomkin on the 1st attempt. The closest I got to OOM was 5k left. In the end, my fellow druid and I still topped meters every attempt (it helped that Tranquility has very nice use during Tympanic Tantrum).

Could I have rolled LB on 2 tanks, probably not without handicapping my mana left for raid healing. But facerolling LB is not what I want out of this game. All I care about is balance among healing classes. I worry about holy pallies who, from my POV, are unaffected by the nerf and work off an infinite mana supply.

GC stated he wanted us to force us into decisions on LB rolling usage. It felt good in there. I had to mind my mana and switch to slow-stacking LB at the very end when it felt tight. My fellow druid said the same thing, mana regen didn't feel as tight as he anticipated. Some boots dropped with haste on them and we agreed that we would probably both take those over Rainey's Chewed Boots (mp5) with regen in consideration.

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Old 03/10/09, 11:13 AM   #672
Maligne
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Clarence
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by atliens View Post
PTR Field Testing: XT-002 Deconstructor (Heroic)

I'll be the first to admit I was extremely worried about the LB nerf on top of the OO5SR nerf. But after downing Deconstructor on the 3rd attempt, most of my worries are relieved. I rolled LB/RJ/RG on the MT only and raid healed. As for mana, it got a little tight at the end on the last two attempts so I switched to slow-stacking LB when the boss was around 10%. I never ended any attempt completely OOM and gave away my innervate to a boomkin on the 1st attempt. The closest I got to OOM was 5k left. In the end, my fellow druid and I still topped meters every attempt (it helped that Tranquility has very nice use during Tympanic Tantrum).

Could I have rolled LB on 2 tanks, probably not without handicapping my mana left for raid healing. But facerolling LB is not what I want out of this game. All I care about is balance among healing classes. I worry about holy pallies who, from my POV, are unaffected by the nerf and work off an infinite mana supply.

GC stated he wanted us to force us into decisions on LB rolling usage. It felt good in there. I had to mind my mana and switch to slow-stacking LB at the very end when it felt tight. My fellow druid said the same thing, mana regen didn't feel as tight as he anticipated. Some boots dropped with haste on them and we agreed that we would probably both take those over Rainey's Chewed Boots (mp5) with regen in consideration.
Wait, you said you rolled LB on the main tank, so who were you slow stacking it on at the end?

Originally Posted by Nurru View Post
Actually pewsey, it's typed as z[tab] and it's pretty well established as the standard notation for the ziplist applicative functor.

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Old 03/10/09, 11:38 AM   #673
Playered
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Twisting Nether (EU)
Originally Posted by Maligne View Post
Wait, you said you rolled LB on the main tank, so who were you slow stacking it on at the end?
He changed from 3 stack rolling into slow stacking for the MT healing in the end.

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Old 03/10/09, 11:43 AM   #674
Lenaldo
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Arthas
I can echo what was said above. I wish I would have ran logs, but forgot. However, last night I had very little mana issues after I adjusted to the changes. The first attempt I went with how I am used to healing(constantly rolling on MT as well as aggressive raid healing) and I ran OOM quite quickly. However, after that attempt I was a LOT more cautious about "wasting" casts(IE I canceled heals on people that got healed up before my nourish/regrowth/etc finished) and refreshing lifebloom(I was actually doing what GC said... Watching to see if I should let it bloom or not). I also found that slow-casting lifebloom was the "best" way to do it.. at least for deconstructor(raid damage was heavy).


I still topped all meters(no priests in the raid); not that topping meters is the most important thing.


Honestly, the increased mana to lifebloom may be a pain in the short run, but it did make me a more alert and tactical healer.


My only major complaint is innervate. It regens VERY little mana now and I was a bit surprised that I went from getting mroe than a full bar of mana on live to about half on ptr. I do not have the innervate glyph, but for mana intensive battles I may pick it up(and definitely drop regrowth glyph).

Nourish has become my go-to heal for raid healing/tank healing. Lifeblooms dont tick fast enough and with the added changes to nourish its a perfect flash heal. However, with the mana back from lifebloom I was finding myself often times throwing 1 lifebloom on people that were 90-95% health and just letting it pop.

All in all, after thinking the sky was falling its not near as bad on ptr. If you havnt given it a shot yet, I would. It took me one encounter to adjust to the changes. We even hit the enrage timer(on purpose) and at that point I was still at half mana with my innervate up.

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Old 03/10/09, 1:06 PM   #675
wileyclaw
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Stormreaver
So, when you guys all talk of the "slow-stacking" technique, do you throw up a LB every 8-9 sec instead of put up the 3 stack right away, or just throw up one, let it bloom, rinse and repeat?

Also, if you are doing it the way that I think (1 every 8-9 sec.) don't you get to a point where its rolling and then do you make your choice to let it bloom and then start over?

Just looking for some clarification, thanks!

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