Kittay

How often should a druid be using nourish on most of these fights if they're on raid? I am starting to think maybe it is healer fail somewhere else in my guilds raid. Fights like Mimiron to help keep my group up. I put a rejuv on everyone in my party. WG and put regrowth on the lowest players. I am having to nourish a lot more then i would like to.

 

Ezarg

Well, wait a moment. Spirit doesn't provide any different kind of regeneration than mp5. It's not like spirit regens your "green" mana, and mp5 regens your "blue" mana, and you need more of the "green" kind. Before 3.1 spirit was definitely much better because it had huge effect on oo5sr regen, and now it's much less relevant since the oo5sr regen is much closer to the regen while casting - there is still a difference but it's third of what it used to be. Thanks to the buff to Intensity we didn't actually lose any regen while casting that came from spirit.

Let's take a real example. Compare [Evoker's Charm] to [Frozen Tear of Elune]. They have identical stamina, intellect, and spellpower, and 1 point of difference between their throughput stats. The charm has 41 spirit, the tear has 17 mp5. Currently 1 spirit converts to about 0.26 mp5 (I just took that from my character on live - unbuffed - 900 int, 1000 spirit, swapped a spellpower trinket for spirit-world glass) so 41 spirit is 10.6 mp5, 12.2 mp5 if you factor in Living Spirit, and 13.4 mp5 if you factor in Kings. It's also ~8 spellpower after Living Spirit and Kings. So if you want to decide between the charm and the tear, you're choosing between 3.6 mp5 and 8 spellpower. Using gems as a reference ([Royal Twilight Opal]) 9 spellpower is normally equivalent to 3 mp5.

I think the main drawback of stacking only mp5 items is that your Int on items is going to lose a lot of regen value it currently provides through Intensity, so I think spirit is good for us because it makes Int worth more.

EDIT: I'll take back the last statement as that's really just circular logic. Bottom line is when you choose between raw mp5 and spirit, you choose between mp5 while casting and spellpower and the conversion rate is very similar to the conversion rate on gems.

 

Kenshinji

@Allinone
If the changes to innervate do actually end up being a small buff, then Spirit has not at all been nerfed at all. Spirit used to be a great stat because it gave mp5, sp, and effected how much mana you got back from innervate. Spirit still gives the same mp5, the same SP, but now we are gaining MORE mana from innervate (or close to the same ammount anyway). It effects less things, and I suppose it has been nerfed in that sense. But spirit is just as effective as before.

EDIT: Less confused now.

 

Ezarg

Yeah - I thought about it a bit and edited my previous post.

However, here is a thought - if you replace all your spirit gear with raw mp5 gear, and Blizzard changes Innervate to be calculated from base mana, you'll end up with more mp5 while casting AND ten (yes, 10!) free talent points assuming you are willing to give up Nature's Swiftness...

So you could do something like this. Hmm.

 

Fallenangel

What? No.
You can say that because the actual throughput of innervate wasn't changed much, then this isn't a big nerf to our overall regen at the current level of gear. But since Spirit used to contribute to innervate and after the patch it won't, then Spirit's value as a regen stat will go down.
What this means is:
1. Gemming for bonus in blue sockets will be less beneficial (go more JC buffs).
2. Spirit trinkets lose some of their appeal, likely phasing out the ilvl200 ones but not the spark.

Since budget wise, Spirit will still be superior to mp5, then for balanced items (=all but trinkets and gems), items that have spirit will still be superior to those with mp5, although by a lower margin.

 

Dav1l

I have seen quite a few posts about General Vezax healing in this thread. So here are my thoughts about it.

The best trinket on this encounter is... [Battlemaster's Bravery]. Yes, it really is. I've noticed that most healers stand there till they get 6 stacks, and only then run out. The reason is that you probably die from seventh stack if you don't partially resist the damage, you are not topped by the time you get damage or if you get some sort of damage besides it (shadow crash, life leech etc). I think you have got an idea by now Just run in, rejuv yourself, wait for ~4 stacks, pop the trinket and barkskin for more safety. The seventh stack will give you around 9-10k mana. Profit.

Hope it helps someone.

 

Kenshinji

Okay, maybe it was presumtuous of my to say that spirit is not being nerfed. What I meant was that mana regen is not being nerfed, at least not for me. In fact, it is being buffed for me. Maybe the difference is that I am so undergeared that I am gaining additional mana via this change.

I also discounted things like spirit trinkets and people who are not JC as I do not have any spirit trinkets, and I cannot immagine what it's like not being a jc.

I do not know how much a better geared resto's innervate returns, and the only peson to offer that that I've seen is Allinone:
If those numbers are right, how much more spirit would we need to match the 15k that the new innervate is going to be giving?

They are nerfing HOW spirit effects regen, but according to this, they are not nerfing mana regen.

 

windstrife

so just a quick question... is [Glyph of Innervate] needed after the chage made to innervate? more precisely... how useful is it now?

 

Kenshinji

It is useful to the tune of 3146.4 mana as that is how much more mana you will gain through innervate using the new glyph

 

Allinone

Exactly. We aren't getting nerfed, but spirit is less useful to us now than it was. Across the board spirit receives a 22.5% reduction in its usefullness to us, but for any Naxx/Ulduar geared druid (as NoFair has pointed out) Spirit still leads to better mana regen per item budget than Mp5. I'll sit down later and attempt to make a new gearing list to reflect this.

1500 Spirit/1500 Int gives Innervate a 15551 Return for us, which is just a touch shy of the 15732 that our New Innervate will. Its safe to say that for all Druids (unless my numbers are off) will see this as a buff for all current gear levels.

 

Eddyqw

I did say "since everyone is taking damage and your hots will rarely be overheal, you can treat them as healing for the full amount". I also said (which you failed to quote) "If you have to stop hotting to cast Nourish, your HPS takes a dive and the raid as a whole suffers". I should have been more specific and said Healing Per Cast Time (HPCT) instead of HPS, but if your healing output is capped by the GCD and not limited by the number of targets available... then really the two terms are interchangable, and the essential point of my post remains unchanged. You are of course welcome to nitpick, but perhaps you could do it a little less aggressively? In any case lets move on from here using the terms HPCT and HPS where appropriate.

Your Iron Council example is one I didn't have in mind while writing my post, and you make a good point - using Wild Growth on cooldown, if you've been using Rejuvenation to full effect, is going to be mostly overheal. On our last IC-25 kill though, I was the only person assigned to raid healing. Obviously other classes have heals that bounce around and help out, paladins can use Beacon to switch off the tank, etcetc, but I was doing the vast majority. As you said, Rejuvenation alone is very close to enough to keep people topped up (in fact with the NR aura and some luck its enough by itself). Maximum HPS isnt required, so you don't cast WG on cooldown, you wait until it'll be utilised - or (this is what I do) you dont Rejuv the melee at all, and use WG to keep them topped up. This also lets JoL take full effect, saving me mana. So yes - on IC-25 hots wont always heal for the full amount, you'll never reach anything like 13k HPS even if you spend every moment casting, and in all honesty HPCT/HPS aren't very important because theres nothing that can randomly kill someone who's low for a short time.

I'll agree that hots wont always heal for the full amount. Assuming that they will is silly; its quite clear that they dont or we'd have druids hitting 13k HPS regularly. However, in the worst-case scenario where a target takes extra damage and other healers are temporarily distracted, the hots will keep ticking. This does happen and is important. The example I was thinking of when I wrote my post was Mimiron Phase 2, since I assumed that was where most people would run into trouble with raid healing. The damage, just like IC-25, is incoming on the entire raid. Unlike IC-25, its heavy aura damage (about 3k per second I believe) combined with random spikes, which can and do target the same person back-to-back. This demands that people be topped up as soon as possible.

3k per second on the whole raid is 75,000 DPS on the raid. That says to me that I need to maximise my HPCT, in order to maximise my HPS. Since that means using hots every GCD, I'm not going to be topping anyone up quickly - but since everyone is now effectively taking considerably less damage from the aura, the other healers have more time to do their thing. It also results in pushing me way up the healing meter and spiking up to 7-8k HPS, which is fun, if rather irrelevant.

My question to you is: do you disagree with my actual point (that we should stick to hots & swiftmend when we must in heavy raid damage situations)? Or just with my reasoning, which I'll admit I could have stated better.

 

• Playered

1500 Int and Spirit gives you more in the region of 17500 mana not 15500 and that is ignoring how stupid it is to use 1500 Int in any calculation beyond those at top end Icecrown levels if even then. We will be getting roughly the same or more mana for what gear people have right now but at Icecrown levels it will be a nerf.

As it stands in 3.1.1 Innervate gives you roughly (at 4.5x regeneration):

Spirit ->	1000	1100	1200	1300	1400	1500	1600
Intellect
1000	9520	10472	11424	12376	13328	14280	15232
1100	9985	10983	11982	12980	13979	14977	15976
1200	10429	11472	12514	13557	14600	15643	16686
1300	10855	11940	13025	14111	15196	16282	17367
1400	11264	12391	13517	14644	15770	16896	18023
1500	11660	12826	13992	15158	16323	17489	18655

Red figures are where we lose mana from the 3.1.2 change under the assumption of 15732 mana returned.

Myself for example sits at around 1200 Int and 1500 Spirit and as a result the change gives me a fraction more mana than I would have got in 3.1.1.


@ Eddy I was only pointing out your bad numbers and how wrong your overhealing statement was by putting it into the most favorable context and still showing that it overheals.

 

Allinone

My mistake. Although I'm not sure your figures are correct either Playered. If you are counting 4.5x regen, you are counting the passive regeneration, in one form or another. Could someone please clarify for me, does Innervate increase mana regen by 400%, which with intensity would give us 450% mana regen while active, or does it simply allow for 400% mana regen total during its duration (a 350% increase) I could have sworn it used to be the later.

In either case, if it is infact the full 450%, to make that chart accurate you would need to add the passive (50%) mana regeneration to the new innervate to calculate the total amount of mana gained during the 20 seconds, in order to get a better comparisson to your chart.

 

• uliko

Innervate increases your spirit regen by 400% thus giving you 500% spirit regen in total and allows all of that to regen while casting. By default you have 100% spirit regen and only 50% of that regenerates while casting so going from 50% to 500% is a 450% increase, thus x4.5.

Why hit food is bad
"You have to spend 10 seconds to apply it, you have to fish it and you cant use the feast."

 

• Playered

No? then you would need to add 50% passive regeneration onto the 3.1.2 Innervate as well which I'm rather certain no one will because that is just your passive regeneration you get all the time.
Would you add your MP5 stat values to your Innervate because they happen while you're under Innervate? we subtract the passive regeneration from Innervate so 500% - 50% = 450% we do not add 50%.

uliko has explained Innervate so no need to delve further into it but it's funny how long into the game we are and how people still cannot understand how the Innervate tooltip reads. I guess the 3.1.2 change is needed for more reasons than PvP.

 

Allinone

Ah, that makes more sense. An increase of 400% really means that it allows 500% of our mana regen. Thats the missing peice I was asking someone to point out to me. Thats what threw my calculations off (and every other calculation i've had dealing with Innervate for the past 2 months). I breezed over the wording of that spell ages ago, I never really cared to break it down, since an Innervate always equaled a full mana bar in the past. The wording for that is horrid, it would make much more sense to have it read "Allows 500% of your Spirit based Mana regeneration to continue while casting for 20 seconds"

 

Fafhrd

A few notes about healing with the bonus.

- It's most useful on fights with heavy healing and unpredictable raidwide damage. On fights like Mimiron phase 2, or Deconstructor, it doesn't work as well, when you're pre-hotting. It shines if you are solohealing Yogg-Sarons brain.
- On fights where most of your healing comes through Rejuvenation, the bonus can exceed 10% of your effective healing.- As been stated, it doesn't take glyphs or talents into account. My average rejuvenation tick is 2404, the bonus heal is 1983.
- A small tip, Rejuvenation + Swiftmend + [Living Ice Crystals] heal is pretty powerful now.

As a sidenote, I've noticed a tendency of not wanting to cast Rejuvenation on targets with full health, as not to "waste" the bonus, I have to guard against that. And it makes sniping a lot easier, for better or worse.

Here's a combatlog parse of healing Yogg-Saron, which is very fun fight as a healer - you can use your whole arsenal of spells: WoW Meter Online

 

isonicq

Am I right to say that the new innervate restores 15732 mana in addition to whatever is restored via my innate mp5/intensity regen over 20 seconds? In that case, when comparing the old innervate to the new, should we be comparing our current mp5 with innervate, multiplied by 4 (over 20 seconds), with 15732 + (current mp5 x4)?

I believe what's confusing me is that I used to calculate the mana return from the current innervate as 4x mp5 with innervate on me (about 16000 currently), which is the total mana restored over the 20 seconds with innervate up. The new innervate should then be said to restore 15732 + 4xFSR mp5 over the 20 seconds, to make them comparable.

 

Najtrok

I believe you are right. While Innervate pre 3.1.2 "removes" mana regen and replaces it by a value 500% higher, the new one "adds" to the 50% (in5sr) so its [0.5 * (spirit based mana regen) + new Innervate]. We can drop out pure mp5 since in both stats its the same.

Well but if you were calculating in both examples with 450% then those values are accurate.

Pre 3.1.2: Mana Regen = 4.5 * (spirit based mana regen)
Post 3.1.2: Mana Regen = 4.5 * base mana

the latter is a fixed value, while the above is a dynamic value depending on spirit and int.

 

grimtage

I found out recently that even though it casts around people on your target, it doesn't actually heal them - it just uses up some of the wild growths around them, it only heals the ones around your mouseover target. However, it does make your Nourish stronger. Slightly less exploitable, but nonetheless, you can cast it whilst out of range. So if you're running to someone in pvp who needs a heal now and your SM and NS is on cooldown, you can WG them whilst out of range and run into range and Nourish. Kind of situational, really.

7 stacks won't kill you if you just heal yourself once after the 6th tick (7th tick hits for 16-17k) which you should do every time, as the 7th tick is what matters for getting your mana back quickly. Also, barkskin doesn't effect the damage taken, only shadow resistance. You should never eat a shadow crash on vapours, simply wait for the tick, move out and move back in after the shadow crash happens. Likelihood is that you keep your stacks - the game gives you a lot of leeway because of latency issues.

 

Kemi

(moved here from the Restoration Itemization thread at Allinone's suggestion)

Except that if you slow-stack to 3 and then let it bloom, you get better HPM and HPS than if you continually throw up one LB and let it bloom, then throw up another. Basically, your mana cost is only fractionally higher for a slow-stack of 3 than for three sequential one-stacks (since you'll generally clip the last tick of the first two LB's), but your average healing is twice as good.

In fact, if you slow-stack to 3 and let it bloom, even if the bloom is 100% overheal, you're still getting roughly the same HPM as you were pre-3.1 (assuming you're in tree form), since the per-cast cost of LB, minus the mana refund, is about as much less than the old per-cast cost of LB as the HOT healing of an (average) 2-stack is less than the HOT healing of the pre-3.1 rolling 3-stack.

Some numbers. Note that both of the post-3.1 analyses are worst-case, because they assume 100% overheal on the bloom. Note also that all three have functionally the same number of casts per time, and thus I've only provided comparisons in terms of HPS rather than HPCT, since HPCT is the same function of HPS in all three cases.

Pre-3.1, rolling a 3-stack:
LB cost 367 mana to cast. After the initial cost to get the stack rolling, you got 3xLB healing for 367 mana per 9 seconds (assuming 1 second of clipping). Total cost per LB healing-second = 13.6 mana.

Post-3.1, slow-stacking to 3 and then blooming:
LB costs 733 mana to cast, but refunds 490 of that mana when it blooms, for a cost of 243 mana. On average, your stack gives 2xLB healing for 243 mana per 9.3 seconds (assuming 1 second of clipping, and 100% overheal on the bloom). Total cost per LB healing-second = 13.1 mana.

Post-3.1, casting single stacks and then blooming:
LB costs 733 mana to cast, but refunds 490 of that mana when it blooms, for a cost of 243 mana. On average, your stack gives 1xLB healing for 243 mana per 10 seconds (assuming 100% overheal on the bloom). Total cost per LB healing-second = 24.3 mana.

As you can see, post-3.1 slow-stacking/bloom actually has slightly better HPM than pre-3.1 rolling a 3-stack, and provides 2/3 the HPS *at worst*, with a possibility of providing considerably better results if the bloom is not 100% overheal. However, post-3.1 single-stack/bloom has about 1/2 the HPM of either of the other strategies, and only provides 1/3 the HPS in the worst case.

There's really no reason not to use slow-stack/bloom: it's just as good HPM as lifebloom stacking ever was, and still gives at worst 2/3 of the old HPS (and HPCT) of lifebloom stacking.

 

goodolarchie

Concerning General Vezax, particularly hard-mode, has anybody tested to see if [Soul Preserver] effect works on that fight? Using that, spark of hope, and doing some branch swinging with the melee for OOC procs would seem to get the most mileage for your mana.

 

Melador

The variability of the healing is one reason I'm not a huge fan of slow-stacking. Math-wise, sure, it works out pretty well, but the whole point of lifebloom is that it's a stabilizing factor in fights. Having a stabilizing factor build up and drop significantly every ~20 seconds makes it hard for other healers to get a feel for the necessary healing of a fight.

At this point I barely every cast lifebloom any more; it's really only used when I see that I have tons of mana to burn and I want to be extra-safe on tank healing. I remain unconvinced that Blizzard moving us away from the juggling act of lifebloom-based healing and towards rejuv/wild growth spam has been a positive thing for our class.

 

Erdluf

Kemi,

You actually underestimated the improved mana savings. Post 3.1, OoC saves you an average of about 43 mana per Lifebloom cast. Pre 3.1 it saved you only about 20 mana per cast.

Melador,

I think variability is a minor argument against lifebloom. Over any nine second period, a slow-stack Lifebloom might heal for as much as 2424 less than Rejuv HoTs, but in most nine second periods it will out-heal Rejuv. I suspect that most other healers are actually thinking more along the lines of 3s windows. Uncertainty about the tank's avoidance is going to dwarf uncertainty about 808 less-than-usual healing.

Most trees take Nature's Bounty, and many take Living Seed, even though that combination adds a lot of variability (around 5k) to our main direct heals. We hope for crits, even if we don't count on them.

There are plenty of reasons to prefer Rejuv (and/or Regrowth) as your stabilizing HoT. They play nice with our other talents (Swiftmend, Living Seed, Revitalize). They don't take up so much of our time (Lb takes twice as much maintenance as Rj).

 

malthrin

Agreed. The incoming damage and healing on the tank is so severe these days that it doesn't feel worth the time - the potential downside of getting behind on raid healing is much more significant than the help it can provide to the tank healers. When I do use it, it's usually not rolling, but putting stacks up when I have free GCDs and deciding whether or not I want to let them bloom to help out the tank healer each time the option to refresh comes up.

Another point is the reduced number of healers these days; when 8ish was common, as for most of Sunwell, it wasn't uncommon to have two or three trees. 3k HPS was a real cushion; these days with 5-6 healers standard, it's rare to run multiple trees.