Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion - Page 5

Oktan · 12/30/08, 3:48 PM

Why so much hate for Nourish? Isn't the spell a lot cheaper to cast than Regrowth, and with 4T7 heals for more than a non-crit Regrowth? Granted the spell is pretty situational, but I find it useful to help keep my tank topped off for fights such as Patchwerk.

I'm actually considering specing out of living seed and imp. tranquility to get tranquil spirit. Since Wow Web Stats shows that I actually use Nourish quite a bit, and living seed is just bad, for a 3 point investment deep within the resto tree.

Maybe i'm just being dumb, and Nourish really is not worth putting on your cast bar. Any pointers to improve my play are much appreciated. I'm almost always exclusively used as a MT healer-- I like the role, and i'm not too crazy about druid raid healing, as I have yet to play with an experienced enough healer that did not just heal over my hots.

Lemanakmelo · 12/30/08, 4:53 PM

I still am happy with Nourish as it is now. It's a Flash Heal. In BC I would have loved a flash heal, I was a Regrowth lover but there are still times when Nourish would have been great, like on Lynx phase of Zul'jin, or the frost bolts in Winterchill. If you look at other healers like priests and shamans, Flash Heal/Lesser Healing Wave are very useful in a small number of situations, and are less efficient than their other heals. A priest/shaman would be considered bad if they used mostly Flash/LHW, but if they use them when they are most needed they are a good healer.

The one problem is that I believe for priest/shamans their Flash spell is very high hps, and very high mana cost, where Nourish seems to be trapped somewhere between Flash Heal and Flash of Light, because it's not more mana efficient than Regrowth and it's not (depending on gear) greater hps than Regrowth.

It still has its use as a very fast heal, and I think saying that you should completely remove it from your bars at this point in time is a bit ridiculous. Just because NS-HT is needed pretty rarely, it doesn't mean we shouldn't bother keeping it on our bars.

Akomos · 12/30/08, 5:42 PM

Oktan, Nourish is only significantly cheaper than Regrowth if you're not in tree for some reason. That treeform discount applied to Regrowth is pretty impressive. Living Seed is really only useful for Imp+Glyphed Regrowth spam action for stabilizing tanks as far as I can tell (though really, wtf else are you going to put those 3 points into? Tranquil Spirit is godawful even if you use Nourish a lot, which you probably shouldn't be).

I like Nourish fine; I use it when someone's taking weird spiky raid damage that I already Rejuv'd them for (usually in heroics) or when I actually do need to be worried enough about mana efficiency on tank healing that Regrowth spam isn't an option (2-healing Patchwerk-10 with a low-dps raid). It's not useless, it's just not the end-all answer to all our healing issues. A bread-and-butter heal that is worth 5 talent points (!) for a 10% mana reduction it is not.

Woodwynd · 12/30/08, 6:18 PM

I think nourish will be a big part of every druids game as this x-pac progresses. With 4pc and decent SP it already has a role to play. It's going to scale better than regrowth with spellpower, especially if you go for upgrades on pieces that aren't part of the tier set (weapons, neck rings etc.). In the new content-patch there is going to be a real issue for druids on when to drop the 4pc, even worse if WG works with it in the next patch.

As for WG nerf, i think it does need a CD, if only to improve its efficiency as well as druids skills. Personally i think WG on a 6sec CD is a little much, i'd like to see 3 or 4.

The problem i have is that CoH is a 41 point talent and is more efficient, in most circumstances, than WG a 51 point talent.CoH front loads the healing. WG is a HoT that targets(as i've observed) the lowest health toons within the radius, meaning spamming it on the raid results in overcasting. On top of that, currently for fights like Loatheb, Malygos and Gluth WG loses much of its efficiency if CoH is also being used because of the front load aspect. Granted this will improve with the CD, but i think the extra 10 talent points should at least get us a few seconds off the CD.

Oktan · 12/30/08, 6:39 PM

Originally Posted by Akomos

Oktan, Nourish is only significantly cheaper than Regrowth if you're not in tree for some reason. That treeform discount applied to Regrowth is pretty impressive. Living Seed is really only useful for Imp+Glyphed Regrowth spam action for stabilizing tanks as far as I can tell (though really, wtf else are you going to put those 3 points into? Tranquil Spirit is godawful even if you use Nourish a lot, which you probably shouldn't be).

I like Nourish fine; I use it when someone's taking weird spiky raid damage that I already Rejuv'd them for (usually in heroics) or when I actually do need to be worried enough about mana efficiency on tank healing that Regrowth spam isn't an option (2-healing Patchwerk-10 with a low-dps raid). It's not useless, it's just not the end-all answer to all our healing issues. A bread-and-butter heal that is worth 5 talent points (!) for a 10% mana reduction it is not.

All true. However, cheaper is cheaper.

I'm at a bit of wits end on what to do with these 5 talent points. Currently these 5 points are in living seed and imp. tranquility. I feel that these are a waste. Living seed is, at best, 3-4% of my healing on any given boss fight, and since I main tank heal almost exclusively, imp. tranquility is a waste. So, that leaves talents like Naturalist, tranquil spirit, and replenish open-- all of which i feel are pretty lackluster. However, with my use of Nourish, I felt that tranquil spirit would probably be best.

ZypherIM · 12/31/08, 12:03 AM

I had a bunch of stuff typed up and then rethought it. You're looking at 8 talent points for regrowth (imp regrowth and living seed), and 5 talent points (tranquil spirit) plus 4t7 for nourish. The 3 talent point difference can't go into anything I don't already have that I actually use really.

With how close they are, I'd rather not tie myself to the set bonus, since nothing in the game right now actually needs the difference between the two spells.

If they add a nourish glyph, add nourish to empowered touch, or make some other change I might change my mind, but being able to freely upgrade once Ulduar comes out will be nice.

Jasyla · 12/31/08, 1:32 PM

It depends on the fight, but I've been rather unimpressed with the direct heal portion of Regrowth. I still use it quite often, and always keep it up on the tank for the HoT portion, but for those situations where the tank is taking heavy damage or raid members need to be topped up quickly, I like Nourish.

Looking at a recent 25-man Patchwerk fight, theses were my numbers.

Regrowth:
2652 = Average non-crit
4368 = Average crit

Nourish:
5196 = Average non-crit
7773 = Average crit

I know the HoT portion is worthwhile for the steady healing, but I can't help but feel disappointed every time I see the direct heal of Regrowth hit someone for less than 3000.

I no not have the Regrowth glyph or 4t7.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Curtdiggler

To piggyback off of what Playered just said, make sure that if you use Clique or anything similar you update your spells to their proper rank. I cleared all Wrath content before I noticed this

Thanks Curtdiggler, I had not updated my Clique bindings. Disregard the above numbers. Or delete the post.

Playered · 12/31/08, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by Jasyla

It depends on the fight, but I've been rather unimpressed with the direct heal portion of Regrowth. I still use it quite often, and always keep it up on the tank for the HoT portion, but for those situations where the tank is taking heavy damage or raid members need to be topped up quickly, I like Nourish.

Looking at a recent 25-man Patchwerk fight, theses were my numbers.

Regrowth:
2652 = Average non-crit
4368 = Average crit

Nourish:
5196 = Average non-crit
7773 = Average crit

I know the HoT portion is worthwhile for the steady healing, but I can't help but feel disappointed every time I see the direct heal of Regrowth hit someone for less than 3000.

I no not have the Regrowth glyph or 4t7.

Your Regrowth numbers act like you have 0 SP while your Nourish numbers act like you have 2300 SP.

Considering the base healing of Regrowth is close to (2364+SP*0.537*1.2)*1.06*1.04*1.1=2866.7 (with 0 SP)... have you not trained up your Regrowth ability from Rank 10 or something?

Curtdiggler · 12/31/08, 2:32 PM

To piggyback off of what Playered just said, make sure that if you use Clique or anything similar you update your spells to their proper rank. I cleared all Wrath content before I noticed this

Dioneirra · 12/31/08, 2:39 PM

Originally Posted by Oktan

Living seed is, at best, 3-4% of my healing on any given boss fight, and since I main tank heal almost exclusively, imp. tranquility is a waste.

Just to make a quick objection. Both talents are somewhat disputable, both in design and actual playing impact. But still, i do have used Imp Tranquility a few time successfully, so i wouldn't call it a total waste. The 2 points, that i can't seem to spend at any other useful talent, turn a 'what the heck was blizzard smoking while designing this?' spell (to be honest, i do not understand any of the changes done to tranquility since the release of the game, the spell has never been anywhere near a really usable or even considered alternative) into a mediocre and seldom used 'oh, damn!' button. Of course, it only has very, very few uses, mostly i activate it if accidently somehow 3 or more groups of trash are pulled at once, because it ensures a short period of time, where the raid has time to react and regroup without having to watch out for the idiot pulling aggro through massive AE healing, as well as not having to pay that much attention to healing, because the heal output is somewhat significant.

Oktan · 12/31/08, 3:00 PM

Originally Posted by Dioneirra

Just to make a quick objection. Both talents are somewhat disputable, both in design and actual playing impact. But still, i do have used Imp Tranquility a few time successfully, so i wouldn't call it a total waste. The 2 points, that i can't seem to spend at any other useful talent, turn a 'what the heck was blizzard smoking while designing this?' spell (to be honest, i do not understand any of the changes done to tranquility since the release of the game, the spell has never been anywhere near a really usable or even considered alternative) into a mediocre and seldom used 'oh, damn!' button. Of course, it only has very, very few uses, mostly i activate it if accidently somehow 3 or more groups of trash are pulled at once, because it ensures a short period of time, where the raid has time to react and regroup without having to watch out for the idiot pulling aggro through massive AE healing, as well as not having to pay that much attention to healing, because the heal output is somewhat significant.

Tranquility would be worth more if it healed the entire area it lands on, and not just your party. Although, that would probably make the spell quite powerful, as it heals for quite a bit.

Fallenangel · 12/31/08, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by Dioneirra

The 2 points, that i can't seem to spend at any other useful talent, turn a 'what the heck was blizzard smoking while designing this?' spell (to be honest, i do not understand any of the changes done to tranquility since the release of the game, the spell has never been anywhere near a really usable or even considered alternative) into a mediocre and seldom used 'oh, damn!' button.

Can't find any other useful talent? How about GotEM? Master Shapeshifter? Nature's grace? This is one of the weirdest builds I have seen.

Whïspur · 12/31/08, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by Dioneirra

Living Seed is a talent where i still ponder what exact value it offers. The given healing percentage seems to be correct, a naxx clear usually shows 2-3%. From my personal point of view i would judge it as a somewhat to weak reward for the invested points. I do see the point, the devs where trying to make here, i.e. giving druids a shieldlike ability without really providing control, which means, it doesn't really compare to Earthshield or PW:S. The main problem, which devalues the idea somewhat, is the old druid problem: a lot of our spells can't crit, and so cannot trigger Living Seed. The spells which are supposed to trigger this mechanic more often than not usually only provide an average Seed value (Regrowth Crits, mainly).

In its actual incarnation i do like to include Living Seed in my build, just because it works toward even more smoothing the incoming damage on a tank with being a reactive, instant heal. But it still is looked upon by me as a very weak talent which i would most likely replace, if there were a more appealing choice. Which Nature's Grace just is not in it's current state, because it only supports a somewhat lazy or nonflexible style of play (that means, trigger it with a Regrowth or hoping for a trigger during HT spam just seems to contradict druidic healing).

On Four Horseman (8 second lag the first pull for everyone in the raid, lags a hard gimmick), I got 3% of my healing from Living Seed - I was one of two healers healing the ranged tanks in the back.

Wow Web Stats

On Instructor Razuvious death, Living Seed accounted for 4% of my healing:

Wow Web Stats

So on those fights, I'm pleased with how living seed is working out and am thankful for the extra healing it gives. Rest of the night Living Seed accounted for 0-1% of my healing though.. which is expected when a lot more of my healing comes from hots rather than direct heals on people that are likely not topped off already. Therefore, Living Seed can be situationally great on the fights that you are casting direct heals on people that aren't likely to be at 100% health.

Side note: I absolutely love having a full arsenal of heals this expansion!

moxy · 12/31/08, 6:33 PM

Just an observation, and perhaps an obvious one, but it strikes me that a lot of people, myself included, have been trying to evaluate Living Seed mostly by seeing that it accounts for about 3% of our total healing, give or take. Healing is nothing like DPS. It's the kind of healing that's as important as the amount. The least important kind is passive healing (JoL, LotP, etc). Hots are better than that and your standard on-demand front-loaded heals better than that. Best of all are preventative heals, of which is LS is one. They're like smart heals with no cast time and no GCD. It would be nicer if it were a true PW:S-like absorb in which case of course it would show up as 0% of our total healing. (Seems like shields are the domain of Holy spells lore-wise and never Nature.) So take that 3% for what it is and nothing more. The example I like to compare it to is NS+HT. No one uses the fact that it accounts for only 1% of our total healing as a basis for judging its usefulness. I think just cuz LS is this new, weird, invisible heal we're all kinda groping to evaluate it's strength.

Dav1l · 12/31/08, 8:01 PM

My position on this Regrowth vs. Nourish discussion is the following. While you are an undergeared druid, not having any haste and crit at all, plus having very bad mana regeneration on top of that, nourish will be better. The point is that using Regrowth might eventually end you up with 0 mana in the middle of the event. The glyphs are of course the things that matter at this point too. Personally, when I just dinged level 80 I had Lifebloom, Swiftmend and Innervate glyphs. I was doing a lot of testing with my talents and ended up with this spec.

After I got some gear from 25m content, I have found myself with almost full mana in the end of any encounter. That was the point when I overlooked my glyphs, spec and gems. First of all, I have changed my gems from all that spirit/spellpower, int/spellpower and pure spirit to pure spellpower. After that, I have swapped my Innervate glyph to the Regrowth one and adjusted the spec slightly. That is when Regrowth became drastically superior to Nourish for me (no t7 set bonus helps that too). I still don't have problems with mana unless a couple of healers in the raid disconnect or die early in the fight, but my hps increased by a lot. HPS is all I care about now, as soon as I don't watch at my mana bar anymore.
And yes. I am not just going brainless RG spam. It's all situation dependant. For example, on KT tombs I will most likely throw Nourish over Regrowth.

Now on the Living Seed discussion. I agree with moxy on that. The talent itself is very good. It has very nice synergy with our hots. In fact, I find LS as an additional 'hot' if you can call it so. It 'ticks', like lifebloom, rejuv and regrowth do, and thus partially lowers the spike on the tank. That seems to be VERY handy on bosses like Sartharion with adds, Malygos and Patchwerk.

P.S. By the way, the cast time difference between Regrowth and Nourish is not 0.5 seconds as most of you mention here. With some haste on the gear it is around 0.35-0.4 seconds or so.