Erdluf

I think you meant HPS, not HPCT. Fully talented, but ignoring Rejuv Glyph:

All lifebloom rotations have HPS > Rejuv.
All lifebloom rotations have HPCT < Rejuv.
Continous Lb is very low DPM. Other Lb rotations may have better or worse DPM than Rejuv depending on various factors (Idol of Awakening, 2t7, 4t8, Lb Glyph).

 

Fallenangel

No, I meant HPCT. Once stacked, a single cast of lifebloom heals for about 9*1450=13050. A rejuv ticking 6 times heals for about 13200. Since their cast time is the same, then their HPCT is the same. LB has twice the HPS of rejuv.

 

Erdluf

I'd argue that if you always manage to refresh Lb between the ninth and tenth ticks, you probably intentionally spent some time not casting (refused to cast WG with Lb at 8.9s, afraid that Lb would fall off). In practice I would either cast the Lb early (an 11% HPCT penalty) or just wait the tenth of a second (a 10% HPCT penalty). If this kind of thing happens every other refresh, you are looking at about a 6% gap in HPCT.

Throw in 4t8, and the amount healed by Rejuv increases by almost 13%, increasing the gap.

Certainly you will have situations where the extra casting time and mana aren't as valuable as the HoT (and if you really need HoTs you might refresh Rejuv early, reducing its HPCT). My point is that if you're really limited by cast time, give up Lifebloom before Rejuv.

 

Ezarg

Does this kind of comparison even make sense? Mathematically of course this is all true, but it's comparing apples to oranges. If I have two HoTs that have roughly the same HPCT but one requires a refresh every 8-9 secs and the other every 15-17 seconds then you can't compare this directly in any way. Of course LB has 2x HPS of rejuvenation - it's simple effect of their respective durations - for every 16 seconds you cast LB twice, and rejuvenation once and they will heal for about the same per cast.

At the same time, if you account of that and say that you cast rejuvenation twice in 16 seconds (on different targets), same as you'd with lifebloom, then rejuvenation is going to win either way. Simply if you need that HPS on a single target, LB wins, but if you just want overall HPS on multiple targets, rejuvenation wins.

If you throw in mana consideration into account, refreshing LB twice on a single target over 16 seconds will cost you 1500-1600 while two rejuvenation casts are somewhere around half that. If you want to keep your mana cost down and "slow-stack" it, then LB will cost you ~500 over 16 seconds but will heal for 2/3rds of what it would do otherwise, in which case it becomes really close to single rejuvenation cast. The benefit of LB here is that it's "not rejuvenation" meaning you can use it on top of rejuvenation and get both.

 

Bhalu

Please notice that it really depends on the encounter what spell fits best. I only use LB two ways at the moment. Either stacking it on any tank (only keeping three stacks while burst damage hits him, letting it bloom then) or using it in order to regain mana when getting a clearcast.
Casting five times RJ followed by WG when healing raid damage is way better and cheaper than throwing LB onto various people (for instance think of Mimiron hardmode phase 2).

 

Cathiecj

I know what the haste cap is to get us to a 1 sec GCD on Rej and such. But what is the actual CAP to hastes effectiveness. What would it be to get Regrowth to a 1 sec GCD?

And as for the rolling of LB. IMO if your going to use it, you might as well let it bloom. Letting it bloom returns half the mana cost of the spell, so the mana question shouldn't be an issue. But, I do only use it on the tanks, and generally only during difficult boss fights or when I'm tank healing. Although, since 3.1 I don't use it often, nor do I tank heal often.

 

tbsp

This post has a helpful calculator for various haste combinations:
Resto4Life� Blog Archive � Gift of the Nerfmother

Using the 0/5 GotEM values gives the 1.0sec GCD haste cap for spells not affected by GotEM.

With WoA, Aura and 3/3 CF: ~1136 haste rating

These numbers are also available in various posts on the forum (ie; Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion).

 

Chameelia

Hey Allinone,

Thank you so much for your assistance in answering my questions. I think on a gut level, I was pretty sure that would be the reply, but the verification is nice. Also, thank you for "putting the cookies on the bottom shelf." I like to get nuggets of information in layman's terms so I appreciate your ability to do just that.

AND to lxsli

You're correct, effect is a noun and affect is a verb. I goofed, thank you for your attention to detail.

 

Allinone

I've been putting off any notings of Revitalize as its been a moot point. Until recently a resto druid would get its benefit even if not talented for it (at least for Wild Growth). There was no point to take the talent as they would have truely been wasted. Blizzard has fixed this issue.

Today I took a quick look (not deep for all classes) at the personal mana gains that I received during our shortened raid last night and calculated the mp5 for each encounter. Last night we had two resto druids who were both spec'd 3/3 into revitalize. For simplicitys sake i'll assume that we applied Rejuv/WG to me evenly, giving an even seperation of Procs from revitalize. I'll define 'Normal Healing' as healing only when targets are taking damage, and Rejuv spamming as casting Rejuv on nearly ever cooldown. Results are as follows:

XT (Normal Healing)
Time of Fight: 415s
Mana Restored from Revitalize: 4567
mp5: 55.02 mp5
mp5 per Druid: 27.51

Kologorn (Normal Healing)
Time of Fight: 264s
Mana Restored from Revitalize: 2825
mp5: 53.5 mp5
mp5 per Druid: 26.75

Steelbreaker (Spamming Rejuvenation)
time of Fight: 135s
Mana Restored from Revitalize: 1955
mp5: 72 mp5
mp5 per Druid: 36

Auriaya (Normal Healing)
Time of Fight: 477s
Mana Restored from Revitalize: 3916
mp5: 41 mp5
mp5 per Druid: 20.5

Hodir (Mostly Rejuv Spam)
Time of Fight: 458s
Mana Restored from Revitalize: 9776
mp5: 106 mp5
mp5 per Druid: 53

as you can see, mp5 ranged anywhere from 20-53 mp5 per druid depending on the nature of the encounter. Now due to the nature of this spell, the mp5 is based off of each persons mana pool and these values will range depending on the gear of whoever this procs on. Raid buffed I sit around 22k mana, and compared to our other 'casters' I ranked 6th out of 11 in mana gained from revitalize. Its safe to assume that if we were to skew these numbers in any particular fashion, we could weight it higher, as I did more healing to myself than the other Resto druid did. When trying to compare this talent, one has to think about more than just ther personal benefit, as it does effect the entire raid. Are these 3 talent points worth 20-50 mp5? If it would only effect me, i'd say no. Since it should help all the other healers and casters in your raid, then my answer becomes a resounding yes.

Its less effective for other mana users (Hunters, Ret and Prot Paladins), but also is fairly unique in the fact that it can translate directly into DPS for Death Knights, Rogues, Feral Druids, and Warriors as any extra Rage/Runic power/Energy can turn into more attacks. From what I can see from my WWS, those gains are much smaller;

1632-1856 RP gained over the course of the boss Kills for DKs,
1080 Energy gained for Rogues,
392-576 Rage gained for Warriors/Feral druids.

As my personal experiance with these classes are limited at best, i'm not even going to attempt to try to determine how this translates to DPS. For the raid utility that this provides, I think that i'll stay spec'd into this. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this subject?

Some side notes also at how this ability works. It procs even at full health, and apparently has no internal cooldown. Looking at some Parses from WWS, I can see 2 ticks from different resto druids taking place (on the same target) in under a second, with another tick taking place 2 seconds later. I'm also noticing some wierd behaivor when looking at the parse. Sometimes it credits the mana regen due to a certain players revitalize <Feral Druid gains 4 rage from Allinone's Revitalize>, and other times it credits it to simply revitalize <Feral Druid gains 4 rage from Revitalize>. I'm not sure if this is a random thing in WWS, or if you can track the buff differently based on if its from Wild Growth or Rejuvenation.

 

Kemi

Off-topic post deleted. Anyone who actually cares about "effect" vs. "affect" can PM me. :-) Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

 

Amijay3

In regard to Revitalize I think of it as this: It is a Nice To Have talent, Not a Need to Have talent.

I don't think that Blizzard would design any encounters depending on the raid having Revitalize as they have Replenishment so any benefit your raid gets from Revitalize is just gravy.

 

Sheshonk

After reading your post I began wondering what type of rDPS return one would get from Revitalize and how it would compare to brambles. We have roughly 5 points to play around with in our specs and figuring out which is the least terrible choice has been one of my concerns as of late. Our options...

• Revitalize
• Brambles
• Celestial Focus
• Natural Perfection
• Tranquil Spirit

Of those, both Revitalize and Brambles offer a rDPS boost, so that's fairly attractive to me. So I took a quick look at my raid's log last night and ran some napkin math today during class. Obviously these numbers aren't exact, but I wanted to find out if there was a large gap between the talents, or if it was close and warranted further investigation.

Brambles

Brambles provides a 75% damage boost on thorns. The more the tanks get hit, the better it is, as can easily be seen on Razorscale. Sadly, I forgot to use it on Deconstructor.




Revitalize

Revitalize has a chance of giving energy, rage, and runic power to the raid through wg and rj. This doesn't allow them to use their good skills however, it allows them to use their filler skills.

I have a worse sample size here, the only boss I was asked to heal for (short on DPS for the night) was Mimiron. This fight obviously skews the results of revitalize since ph2 mimi is rj/wg heaven. Results differ due to raid comp, we don't really min/max our raid comp due to recruitment issues hailing to T7 (who cares about jumping ship when everyone and their mother can kill 3d). We had in our raid: 2 cats, 1 rogue, 1 bear, 1 prot war, 1 arms war, and 3 DK's.


Brambles vs Revitalize

As can be seen, Revitalize comes out ahead of thorns by roughly 100 rDPS. However, definitely be aware that Mimiron is a strong fight for Revitalize, a more realistic rDPS value for it will probably be 100ish. If someone wants to run with this be my guest, but I think its fairly obvious that Revitalize will outperform brambles in nearly all situations in addition to returning mana (which isn't a DPS gain to casters btw).


So my next question becomes, how terrible is this terrible talent Revitalize? Usually when one takes into account DPS talents, they say 1% damage boost per talent point makes the talent good. So lets assume you are a 5K DPSer, that means revitalize needs to give 50 rDPS per point (150). In strong fights for revitalize it will net these returns, maybe even more (steelbreaker). In most situations I'm assuming it will fall short by a fair amount (100ish rDPS).

Revitalize, better than your other terrible talent options? Yes, I believe so, as long as you have 1sec hot gcd's without Celestial Focus. Terrible? Yes, incredibly so when you consider its a 9th tier talent.

 

Ezarg

I'd say that for resto druids Brambles is a fairly deep talent, too - especially if you happen to have a boomkin in the raid with that already.

The general understanding seems to be that deep talents are supposed to be stronger. I don't agree with that. In fact it's better to have lower-tier talents very strong and higher tier weaker because you can always choose to pack your 50 talent points in first 5 tiers or so and stuff that 51st in the last (let's assume there is no prerequisites), while you can't exactly do the opposite: forget first 4 tiers and stuff everything in the last 5 tiers. So whether you like it or not, you have to spend points in the lower tiers, but you have an option to skimp points on the higher tiers. I'm perfectly fine with Revitalize being where it is in the tree and would have more problem if that got swapped with something more important from the lower part of the tree.

 

tbsp

Your log shows thorns hitting for 230-260 in most cases, with a few outliers. This is roughly what you'd expect from thorns cast by someone with 2-2.5k spellpower and no brambles. I haven't tested it myself, but based on your log (as well as a wowhead comment here, on April 18th '09: Brambles - Spell - World of Warcraft), I don't believe brambles affects thorns cast on other players.

That's why I currently have 1pt in Starlight Wrath instead of Brambles (for a tiny dps boost on XT's heart and Yogg's brain).

 

Sheshonk

I forgo Brambles in both my Tree and Boomkin specs at the moment. I was under the impression they fixed the bug where Brambles was not effecting targets other than you. I couldn't find anything specific in the Moonkin thread, but this post hints that it does in fact work properly. Can I get any confirmation on this?

 

Allinone

The total DPS contribution raid wide if pretty terrible, but we are looking at a buff that stacks with every resto druid in the group. I often use a macro that targets the boss and uses him as the center of my Wild Growth Casts, so Melee (Rogues, DK's, Warriors, Enchancement Shaman, Prot, Ret Paladins) have a much better chance of getting hit with Wild Growth.

The best DPS related use of this might come from Death Knight tanks, who use Rune Strikes at every oppertunity. In my parses I found this Revitalize to generate slightly less Runic Power than 3/3 Scent of Blood. This could lead to a pretty sizeable increase in threat.

Your results are interesting, but the mathematician in me would like to see a much higher sample space before making a sound judgement on this ability. One fight has to many variables in it to say for certain that 'yes, this is a generally expected value for DPS gain'. I'll keep an eye on it over the next few weeks. If any druid is spec'd into Revitalize and wishes to private mail me links to their WWS, i'd very much like to get a bigger data set to work with. I can't promise i'll go through them all, but it'd be interesting to get a large view on this.

And yes, this is only useful for Healers and non mana using DPS (generally) as most casters do not seem to have any Oom problems in current content. What I like about the talent (in our current content), we get to provide a buff simply by healing in our most efficient way. In Naxx it was near worthless since we didnt have to roll Rejuv on the raid as often. With the new encounters, we are encouraged to. It doesnt require us to do anything different from what we are already doing, its a 'free' buff.

 

Krag

Brambles increases damage from Thorns on anyone you cast it on. 394 average damage from Thorns on a Vezax fight that I managed to find one of our WWS reports on.

 

joechuckny

I do not use brambles or revitalize, can anyone send me there spec (via PM) for resto druids? I would love to check it out.

 

Sheshonk

Basic Tree Spec with 4 points to spend.

 

Orlok3105

Isn't this spec best way to spend those remaining 4 points?

Out of other options (Revitalize, Brambles, Natural Perfection, maxing out Tranqil Spirit) Celestial Focus looks like most solid points investment.

 

sulliwan

Your dps estimates from rage gains are way off.
HS and Maul are both on next attack abilities, so you should be using the difference between normal attack damage and hs/maul damage for your damage increase estimates. In case of fury warriors, it is a bit higher than that due to their normal attack missrate and bloodsurge, something like difference*2 should give a roughly accurate damage gain for them.
Also, keep in mind that tanks usually have enough incoming damage for the rage gains from revitalize to be mostly useless.
I am not sure about the DK damage estimates either, been a while since I checked what the hell DK-s are doing, but if I remember anywhere close to correctly then DK dps basically consisted of spamming all their runes, getting full RP while doing that and then dumping all of that RP while runes regen. It could be the case for DK-s that RP gains from revitalize simply overflow. However, as I said, not sure at all about that.

 

Mazzarus

If you have the boss targeted while casting WG it will cast on yourself I believe. If I want to hit the melee I generally cast on the tank or someone in the melee group.

 

Allinone

You are mistaken.

#show Wild Growth
/assist
/cast Wild Growth
/targetlasttarget

Will target the boss, and use him as the center for your Wild Growth, and then switch back to the target you were using. I use this macro. Even when I have a ranged caster targeted the Melee still get hit with my Wild Growth (even if I am more than 15 yards away from them). In my experience this hits more people on average than targeting the tank since,

A) Your Melee are generally closer to the Boss than they are to the MT
B) The Boss has a larger hit box, and it uses the edge of the Hit Box to calculate the 15 yard range.

The macro I provided is really basic. I would like to add a modifier so I could hold a key down (like shift) to toggle the assist and targetlasttarget commands. If anyone off the top of their head knows the right syntax and could post it I would love them for it. I suppose I would really want the normal function to be the default, and the /assist to only take place when pressing a modifier.

Using this macro exclusively is not without its own problems. First of all you have to be within casting range of the boss or else you will get 'Target is out of Range' errors. Secondly this regulates WG to a tank and Melee only heal. The modifier would solve this. This macro shines when you want to use WG on every cooldown but do not have the time to check if there are 5 or 6 people around to use as efficiently as possible. In any case, using this macro in its current state isnt perfect, but very helpful in certain fights.

Edit: Since the Melee classes are most likely to experience a DPS increase from Revitalize procs with Wild Growth, my priority always bends to them. Warriors, DK, Rogues, and Feral Druids are all prime targets. That was actually my initial reason for making a Melee only WG macro. If the Playered reported 15% (below) is true, you could expect this to proc once every 7 seconds (or once per cast) on each melee while chain casting. That makes it worth doing to me.

 

• Playered

It seems that since 3.1.2 (?) Revitalize on Wild Growth is giving us a 15%~ per tick per target chance to restore mana again like the initial 3.1 PTR version which was quickly nerfed down to the 3%~ which we have had for some time (Thanks to Pinch for pointing out).

 

nasents

Change your /cast WG to anther spell to test, but I believe if cast on an enemy your spell hits the enemy's target if possible and yourself otherwise. I think you are hitting the tank anyway.