I'm ok with this, but why would we stand on these principles ?
Is the loss of WG such a big punch in our face that we can't even talk of Dreamstate ? I don't think so. The talent points involved (I mean removed) to go Dreamstate and Lunar Guidance in the restoration tree are not by any mean necessary to be a good healer. I'm not considering WG this way, of course.
Everybody is talking about mana issues in 3.1, and semi-deep Balance could be the answer. Is there so much raid damage in Ulduar that we can't live without WG ?
Remember that I'm only doing 10-man, where, like I said before, WG is not so OP. I already runed Naxxramas without it in my action bars when there was no 6s CD to argue with some friends that were doing 30 to 50% of their heal with it. And I'm still alive.

I was also writing about this beause I'm thinking about dual specing into a classic restoration build with WG and proper glyphs, and a "tank healing build" that could be this 28/0/43.

Don't get this the bad way because I try being constructive.

This was answered somewhere earlier in the thread, but allow me to put some number as to why dreamstate is bad for you. Let me put some of these in light of the coming changes.

Gains:
10% of Int given as Mp5
12% of Int is converted into Spell Power
3% Haste from All Spells

Losses:
Wild Growth (Our only multi-target heal)
Revitalize (Which will be coupled with Wild Growth in 3.1)
Living Seed (Fixed to accommodate over healing in 3.1)
Gift of the Earth Mother (20% reduction on the GCD for HoTs)
5% of Spirit converted into Spell Power
5 Wasted points (have no impact on healing) in the balance tree

In your current gear you sit at 850 unbuffed Spirit and Int, and you have MDF as a trinket. Since Spirit and Int levels tend to be near each other, we can assume an overall benefit of 7% of Int converted into SP. Raid buffed, this is anywhere from 85-100 mp5 gained (current gear + Raid buffs). The real benefit of this build then is 100 mp5, and 70 Spell Power. This is assuming you reach 1000 of each in your 10 man raid buffs. (not to mention the fact that you this lessens the benefit you will receive in spell power from MDF). Even at top gear levels this will top out around 130 mp5 and 91 Spell Power.

Combined with Wild Growth, Revitalize will give massive utility to resto druids, not only as a way to give mana back to casters, but also as a way to give Rage, Energy, and Runic Power to classes that lack any way of increasing their generation rate of this. This will combine for a much higher raid DPS increase than thorns will. In addition, 20% GCD reduction for HoTs is a huge loss compared to 3% haste. Nourish will now crit nearly 50% of the time, and all overhealing will be applied to the seed, this stands to be a much better increase in HPS than 70-91 SP could hope to provide.

This is to say nothing of the 5 wasted balance points.

I think the spell you're referring to is called Tranquility

Even if specced, the 4 minute cooldown is long for something that isn't even raid wide, let alone that it's channeled. I do agree with mindlessness of the Rejuv spam and how it winds up being something that Blizzard doesn't want. However, I'm not quite at the skill level yet where I can roll 10 rejuvs and 2 lifeblooms and toss up WG every time it's off cooldown. For the majority of the resto druid players out there I think it's the same. So in some way it does require skill to get the full potential out of it - mind you it isn't THAT much skill.

If they retooled Tranquility we may have an alternative though.

Thanks for pointing out this, and particularly the fix of the living seed. And holy crap, I missed the synergy between WG and revitalize: big boost !
There will be no 35g wasted with my respec, because I learned all the pros and cons, and will sleep happier !

And to add to this, there are of course choices to make, even in massive aoe healing. Generally, you will toss out rejuv on people with low deficits, regrowth on higher deficit people, WG on clustered groups, you'll probably SM people in critical situations etc. You should also use Nourish rather than Regrowth for people with a decent health deficit that will probably not get any more damage for a while (mana not being an issue has made me lazy in this regard).
That means, I and I suppose most other druids actually use most of our spells when healing aoe damage.

There's really only one fight in the game where rejuv feels spammy to me: Sapphiron. And even there I use a lot of regrowth because people love to stand in the Blizzard, and I usually keep LB rolling on the tank.

I really don't see the problem with rejuv.

I love Rejuv, but honestly, it's braindead to just spam it. The spell is very efficient but it has a lot of drawbacks -- no healing for 3 seconds, lasts 18 seconds, healing isn't very controllable. Even on fights like Sapphiron I (and apparently a lot of others in this thread) use Regrowth a lot along with Rejuv because it combines the hot aspect of Rejuv with controlleability and burst healing. Similarly, if you must heal on the move you wouldn't just use Rejuv, you would use some combination of Rejuv/Lifebloom/Swiftmend/Wild Growth, maybe NS.

Revitalize and Wild Growth hardly get buffed in 3.1. We get a paltry 3%~ per tick per target chance for it to proc from WG not the 15% people might still think equal to RJ.

You can understand why having it at that level for WG would be too strong and especially as a mana restore which is something they have been actively being cautious with. Sadly they have not further compensated the talent somehow so it remains at roughly the same weak level that it was pre 3.1 and nothing has changed to make it a solid investment.


This might have changed in the latest build but I have heard nothing of it.

I agree with your arguments for the most part, but I would like to point out 5 wasted points is double dipping into the "loss" scenario, as it is already covered by every single loss that you have covered. When making comparison it is pretty dangerous to do something like this, especially when the argument is close (not in this case, obviously)

Agree, I originally didn't meant to word it like that. I'm not sure why I wrote it twice in the loss column.

Wasted Points just rub me the wrong way. I personally hate throwing talent points into a tree just to get to the next level. Being forced to take talents such as Nature's Focus or Subtlety in the Resto Tree frustrate me, and yet even they have some benefit to healing.

While I agree with your general opinion about pointbalance for resotpspecs and personally also dislike wasting points this still is only a personal preference. What really matters for one spec vs another is the tools and efficency alone. "Wasting" 5 points isn´t a con if the gain compared to what you give up is larger. Annyoing sure but not a con.

and not to derail this thread further into dreamstate or not to dreamstate for heling raids but for those considering this you need to ponder when you really want that extra mp5. What are the situations that stretch your mana mostly like? Are they often single target healing fights or simply fights where there is a whole lot of raid damage to heal? If the answer is heavily raid damage battles then you haveto consider how many heals you haveto toss to cover as much ground as a wild growth does and how many GCDs slower this is than that single WG cast. All healers have their style but I honestly can´t even begin to comprehend why anyone would like to give up WG for raid healing purposes.

The GCD time lost from refreshing hots on your tank (which you need for your endless Nourish spam) will very quickly devour any "gain" from CF due to not having GoTEM and the boost of 100 MP5 and 70 SP is hardly game changing unless you want the Paladin style 80% overheal on direct heals because tanks do not need the endless spam as much as your epeen does.

Losing Living Seed on your "tank healing only" spec is also a really really stupid move but I guess a spec like this one* would just be your ideal thing for "tank healing" as you are going for an Int heavy build and will 'skip' Spirit and you hardly cast HoTs so the loss of ToL form is nothing right?


Please give up on the stupidity of Dreamstate for your own good, posting less and researching/playing more will do wonders for you. WG is not at the level of the old CoH but that is a good thing because "One spell to rule them all, one spell to find them, one spell to bring them all, and in the spamming bind them." is not a good mantra.


* Please not this is a very stupid 'joke' build that should by no means ever be used even by the person it was aimed at as a snide jab.