That's the thing - GUI doesn't lock your spells for any longer than GCD from when the GUI thinks your spellcast started. Also, if I recall correctly, since something like patch 2.4 or so you don't need stopcasting macros anymore - the GUI has been patched to behave as if you used /stopcasting if you just intend to queue spells - which makes it easier for people to chain casts by hand without actually cancelling their previous cast.
Regardless, even with gcd only acting clientside, your spells are locked for the duration of the gcd making queueing impossible(or close to it). I guess if you hit the cast button while in the red area on quartz, you should be able to chain casts relatively well, however they still won't be getting queued and it's pretty hard to time them yourself like that, so I very much doubt the result will be much better than just spamming the button. Someone with a g15 or autohotkey could easily test this.
Also, trusting the client is incredibly stupid, so I very much doubt Blizzard has gone that way. They could just allow the client to start casting when clientside gcd stops and then check if the client was actually able to cast later serverside, I guess.
So if I understand this right, this is the same amount of haste required to reach 1s GCD, since Nourish and GCD are both 1.5s base. The GCD on Nourish will always be the same as the casting time, because it isn't affected by GotEM. So theoretically it is impossible to perfectly chain Nourish. You don't have the 300ms grace time at the tail end of the spell when you can queue it, because the GCD is still active. I'm sure with addons or superb timing you can come close to perfect chaining, but the game won't help you with queuing so any latency will disrupt your timing.
I don't know about that. Generally speaking, if I just look at my skill bar and queue based on the rotating spark, I can queue the next instant when the spark reaches top left corner. Since those are instants, they have no real cast time and it's all about GCD.
The biggest problem has been actually for me with spells where cast time is just barely under GCD - something really weird happens there and you get a lot of "Spell is not ready yet" messages. When the spells are way under GCD, they behave to me like instants and I can queue them based on GCD spark, and if they are above GCD the normal 300ms rule applies and you can queue them that way.
The GUI definitely allows you to queue instants, which saved me a few times when the servers got really laggy - I could still keep throwing rejuvenation on different people and eventually when the lag cleared the server would catch up and all those people I threw rejuv on would actually show with more or less correct timers.
Interestingly enough BM hunters have the same thing going on with Steady Shot which after all haste talents has base cast time same as GCD.
EDIT: @sulliwan's data
So, according to your test, large amount of haste is good for Nourish because it reduces the average delay? I'm not sure I'm following this. According to your test 20% of haste reduced your average intercast delay by 50%...
Brief Intro...
Our guild is downing most bosses (not mimi yet or any hard modes) with relative ease, but ariyana is possing sum problems, we are having a hard time killing the "cats" before they kill our tanks in the intial pull. Healing Compostion in the raid consist of 2 druids, 1 Pally, and 3-4 Priest.
So Now to My Question....
Strat 1 = 3Lifeblooms, 1Rejeuv, 1Regrowth on all tanks
Strat 2 = Nourish Spam with Intermintent Regrowths and Wildgrowths
Why I bring this up in the first place...
My guild has showed a more significant sucess rate if both druids do strat 2 although this not a typical way to heal I have found it to have quite some sucess but my guildies have giving me quiet some greif for doing this strat, therefore im brining this up to here for a second opinion.
Better Description of Strat 2...
Before the pull I have a regrowth, rejeuv rolling on all three tanks, then I begin to spam nourish non-stop, I do this for two reasons...
1 = To keep Nature's Grace Up At All Times
2 = To keep Living Seed Up As Much As Possible
I will also as needed squeeze in a regrowth or wildgrowth in to keep the 20% healing affect benefit from nourish, If I and the other resto druid do this it shows a much higher sucess rate. First time I did this alone without the other resto druid i did 25% of the healing with over 5500 hps, with sumwhere to Nourish healing 50% and Living Seed Healing 40% and then the resto going to varous hots, Since the other druid is doing it my meters have been nerfed a bit but I will repeat this again we are haivng a much higher sucess rate...
Sooo back to my question....
Is my strat a optimal healing option for this situation?
OR
Is this strat only working with my guilds healing compostion?
OR
Is this all just dumb luck?
OR
Am I just a complete idiot?
Sorry to make this soo long but im trying to provide the full story and not bits and pieces, I also bring this up cause I have recieved nothing but grief about this from guildies and am searching for a second opinion. Well Criticism and advice and or thought are greatly appreciated.
In before... No I dont go oom from this, and no I dont have to innervate myself at anytime during this bossfight ever, thank you 2k spirit....
One reason you might want a lot of haste - if you plan on casting a lot of regrowths.
It doesn't come into play very often, but I'm considering regrowthing in response to things like Tantrum on XT hard and Ground Tremor on Freya. It's definitely slower than Nourish spam and risks getting beaten to the punch by flashes and chain heals, but I'm thinking of using it instead of Nourish spam or continuing to rejuv/wg the raid.
For XT, it's more because those people will probably continue to take damage over the next 30 seconds, and for Freya it means that getting people out of the danger zone health-wise also leaves a hot on them for swiftmending purposes.
Like I said, I'm not convinced that it's better than continuing rejuv/wg spam or nourish spam, but it's probably something I'm going to try, and I'll take all the haste I can get for it.
My raid healing group usually consists of: 1 pally, 1 druid, 1 or 2 priests, 3 or 4 Shaman.
For the pull, which is where most ppl have trouble. We usually have a DK tank a majority of the cats. A pally tank 1 cat and our warrior tank the boss.
Our DK lays a Death and Decay on the ground to pull so he has time to run LoS. I am behind the corner on the left where he runs to, and the melee is usually up on the steps on that side. There is a healer with the melee. I Rejuv the DK so i can Swiftmend right after the pull, which is when he takes the most damage. I usually also have a regrowth on him. I am not a big fan of the nourish spam, but i do that for this fight while I am waiting on my HoT to need reapplied, including WG. I have been fear-warded and the pally OT pulls cats off the DK. The shaman that is with the melee naturally helps with DK tank, while he keeps melee up.
That is pretty much how we handle the pull. The rest just takes practice.
Our initial strat for pulling Auriaya used double rogue distracts to split 2 cats from the main group (delays some of the damage), a DnD at the top of the stairs to get initial aggro, and a pally running in bubbled to pull. The tanks would blow cooldowns (shieldwall, etc) for the initial damage burst. I'd RG+RJ+3LB a tank (or two) and spam nourish. Once you've lived through the first 10-15sec the burst should be over.
We've dropped some of components of that pull since then, since they're overkill, but they all seemed to help initially.
That is not true. GotEM reduces the GCD by 20%, which is not equal to 20% haste.
GCD without any form of haste: 1,5sec
GCD with 5/5 GotEM: 1,5sec - 20% = 1,5sec x 0,8 = 1,2sec
GCD with NG (20% haste): 1,5sec / (1 + haste) = 1,5sec / 1,2 = 1,25sec
The right values for haste to get a 1 second nourish cast are (at least I will believe it, until I'm proved wrong):
New Casting Time = (Base Casting Time)/(1 + (% Spell Haste / 100))
I believe you are correct. I run with about 470 haste and my nourish cast is just above 1 second with NG proc'd. If i put on my T7 gloves my cast is almost 1 second. I don't have any clipping problems and can absolutely chain cast them(love when I get consecutive NGs). I don't know if it makes any difference, but my latency is usually about 30ms.
Okay, so technically a druid could run with ~510 haste (assuming no CF) and not clip Nourish with a NG proc. Thats exactly what I was looking for. I'll go through over the next day or so and edit the 510 into my posts, so other druids dont get confused. Based off that information, I would continue to call NG a very strong talent. Thanks Skjaven for pointing out how the formula is calculated.
@temptedangel: You should only have to spam direct heals during the pull; there is more damage flying around during this part of the fight than at any point afterward. We LoS the pull also, and depending on our tank/healer comp that night the MT may have to pop shield wall when the kitties arrive and the OTs are picking them up. The MT and usually one OT will take a lot of damage initially, so 2 hots rolling and nourish spam is what I've found most effective in keeping them up. Once the cats are being tanked the damage is much more manageable, and a more normal healing strat will be more effective. Once the kitties are down it should be hots all the way to mitigate her scream most effectively, and only the MT should need direct heals. The tank absolutely needs our hots running for when we're running around in fear.
In before... No I dont go oom from this, and no I dont have to innervate myself at anytime during this bossfight ever, thank you 2k spirit....
Why are you stacking spirit to ungodly amounts...your throughput takes a nose dive. 1756 unbuffed spellpower is atrocious. No one needs that much spirit. And the meta makes me cry.
As to auriaya, pre-hotting before the pull followed by nourish spam after the pounce combined with some cooldowns from your other healers should do the trick. We usually pull using a hunter trap or totems then the tanks pick up the adds as they run around the corner to us.
@ Cuddlekin Down to 1909 Spirit Raid Buffed (Changed some gems and enchants)
-Is 1900 Spirit really THAT much?
-Healing Power is >2200 Raid Buffed with flasks and what not (NOT including shammy totem), and Ive yet to see a significant differnce in heals (PER A HOT TICK) compared to druids who stack spell power, Yes I am aware that in the overall duration it heals for alot more but how often do your hots get to heal to thier full potental?
-And I get that Meta because my spell power is low therefore my heals/crit dont heal for as much, I havent been able to test it but I hope that helps me close the gap on what my nourish crits could be healing for if I stacked spell power....
Any Opinions and criticism would be nice!
@All Above Responses
-Lol I got more responses on how people pull the boss then if my healing strat was statisfactory, If I wanted help on that I'd post that in a differnt form xD
Last edited by temptedangel : 06/07/09 at 11:55 PM.
@ Cuddlekin Down to 1909 Spirit Raid Buffed (Changed some gems and enchants)
-Is 1900 Spirit really THAT much?
-Healing Power is >2200 Raid Buffed with flasks and what not (NOT including shammy totem), and Ive yet to see a significant differnce in heals (PER A HOT TICK) compared to druids who stack spell power, Yes I am aware that in the overall duration it heals for alot more but how often do your hots get to heal to thier full potental?
-And I get that Meta because my spell power is low therefore my heals/crit dont heal for as much, I havent been able to test it but I hope that helps me close the gap on what my nourish crits could be healing for if I stacked spell power....
Any Opinions and criticism would be nice!
@All Above Responses
-Lol I got more responses on how people pull the boss then if my healing strat was statisfactory, If I wanted help on that I'd post that in a differnt form xD
1.9K spirit is a ton. Spirit might have been an okay stat to stack whenever you had healing rotation in vanilla WoW to abuse o5SR, but since then its been a terrible stat to stack and you're living way, way in the past. Nowadays spirit is a hybrid stat, adding both mana regen and spellpower. Unfortunately, much like most things hybrid, that makes it absolutely useless at doing either job. Int provides nearly double the amount of regen than spirit thanks to replenish being so awesome. If you compare spellpower and spirit in terms of iLvl, spellpower gives nearly eight times the bonus. What this means is you never want to seek out spirit as a stat, instead go for primary stat you need. I'm not saying avoid spirit like the plague on your gear, but you definitely shouldn't be gemming for it.
You want as much spellpower you can find. Why? If you are ending progression fights with mana, it usually means that you have to much mana regen (depending on the fight). I know, now your saying "What's wrong with to much mana, I love mana!" Most fights that mean anything have a DPS check associated with them, so the raid will go with the bare minimum amount of healers. Most raids will be smart about this and stack healers that have high throughput so 5 awesome healers are the equivalent of lets say 7 average healers. Druids are in luck because the class can put out a huge amount of throughput, but to do this you need spellpower, and as much of it as you can get. You might not see a difference right away, but it adds up. If you simply regem'ed all your gear to SP gems you will see noticeable results in your next raid. If you're competitive with resto druids in your raid that are stacking SP, then that probably means they are doing something wrong with their rotation. If I were in your shoes I would use the opportunity to demolish them on meters (yes I'm well aware lolmeters aren't a valid method of establishing who is a good healer, but it shouldn't be ignored either) and gain a 100% raid invite.
I strongly recommend changing your meta to [Ember Skyflare Diamond]. Think about it for a minute, why do you care about crit? You have two spells that can crit and rarely, if ever, will they make up a majority of your healing. You can't predict a crit, you don't plan to get a crit when your casting a direct heal, and crit usually ends up in overheal. This meta might look okay on paper, but in a real healing situations it doesn't work out. Meanwhile, you could be putting 25 reliable SP towards all of your spells. Not only that, but you also gain more mana regen with the 2% int bonus. With your current meta your trying to force a square peg in a round hole. The way to fix your problem is to gem for SP to increase throughput, not use a crummy meta.
Finally, I just want to mention that there is no shame in using your innervate on yourself. I see it often where resto druids believe this is some sort of badge of honor. Where's the innervate going otherwise? It's not the end of the world if you use it on yourself, you don't need to build gear sets that have a huge amount of regen. The disadvantages outweigh the advantages, even if that one loud mouth arcane mage loves you.
As to your heal strat on that crazy cat lady, go with the first one. Keep full hots on all the tanks, but make sure you have them up before the pull. To do this get triblooms running on each tank, and then drink. Refresh triblooms, and then drink to be topped off. Rinse and repeat till pull. Once pull starts get rejuv's running on each tank, once tanks are actually being hit throw out Regrowths. Keep your hots up while the tanks are tanking, with your spare time cast Nourish on tanks that need it. If the tanks are at full life, cast nourish anyways, but /stopcasting if they are still full at the end of the cast. You can honestly blow out your entire mana bar during the initial part of the fight when the adds are up and be completely fine, the fight is a joke once they are gone.
Cat lady, incidentally, is one of the places where having a decent fast heal like glyphed healing touch is handy because people can get unlucky and die to the defender.
@ Cuddlekin Down to 1909 Spirit Raid Buffed (Changed some gems and enchants)
-Is 1900 Spirit really THAT much?
-Healing Power is >2200 Raid Buffed with flasks and what not (NOT including shammy totem), and Ive yet to see a significant differnce in heals (PER A HOT TICK) compared to druids who stack spell power, Yes I am aware that in the overall duration it heals for alot more but how often do your hots get to heal to thier full potental?
-And I get that Meta because my spell power is low therefore my heals/crit dont heal for as much, I havent been able to test it but I hope that helps me close the gap on what my nourish crits could be healing for if I stacked spell power....
Any Opinions and criticism would be nice!
@All Above Responses
-Lol I got more responses on how people pull the boss then if my healing strat was statisfactory, If I wanted help on that I'd post that in a differnt form xD
Fully raid buffed you should be ~ 1300 Spirit or so. Your spellpower should be pushing 3k, not counting trinket procs. Trust me, you'll see a massive difference (in how well your HOTs heal) in a resto Druid with 2200 SP and a resto Druid with 3000. The rule of thumb is easier than the theorycrafters make it. If you're healing a very hectic fight and you end up never using a mana pot, never needing innervate and you're still not going OOM, you have way too much regen gear, gems or enchants.
As for your other question regarding how to maximize your HOTs. Your best bet is just to use your sense of anticipation. Think about who might be taking damage in the near future and keep HOTs up on the tank(s). If you know a large amount of AE damage will affect the raid, start casting rejuvs on people 10-15 seconds before it lands so the rejuv ticks top people off. Save Wild Growth for moments the raid needs it, etc etc. Maximizing what you get out of hots is just about beating the Priests/Shaman to their direct heals. You do that by making sure when people take damage, a Rejuv is up. Overall that spell should make up 60-65% or so of your total healing if you use Recount. Usually Rejuv/Wild Growth are 90% of my total healing.
Cat lady, incidentally, is one of the places where having a decent fast heal like glyphed healing touch is handy because people can get unlucky and die to the defender.
Swiftmend? Nourish? I don't understand reasoning behind spending glyph slot and up to 7 talent points to get castrated Nourish in the end.
Also best thing to avoid "people being unlucky" is to keep HoT's on them.
Yes I am aware that in the overall duration it heals for alot more but how often do your hots get to heal to thier full potential?
Since 3.1 my overheal's have increased. I used to be around 16% OH now I'm usually at 25%. I've noticed that the other healers are overwriting my HoT's when it's not needed. Granted sometimes it is important to overwrite a HoT with a big instant, and sometimes both they and I don't realize I have a HoT on the target. Any suggestions on what I can do to reduce my OH? Has anyone else experienced the increase in OH since 3.1?
Swiftmend? Nourish? I don't understand reasoning behind spending glyph slot and up to 7 talent points to get castrated Nourish in the end.
Also best thing to avoid "people being unlucky" is to keep HoT's on them.
You may want to read earlier in the Restoration Glyphs thread. Glyphed healing touch is not a castrated nourish if used as a raid heal. Nourish has a very bad innate coefficient compared to Flash Heal or LHW -- it is balanced to be as effective as those heals with a hot on the target. GHT does not require pre-conditions, scales as well as LHW and has the same haste as a Tidal Waved LHW innately. HOTs are great but they will not save people from unlucky burst events, like repeated attention from a feral defender.
Since 3.1 my overheal's have increased. I used to be around 16% OH now I'm usually at 25%. I've noticed that the other healers are overwriting my HoT's when it's not needed. Granted sometimes it is important to overwrite a HoT with a big instant, and sometimes both they and I don't realize I have a HoT on the target. Any suggestions on what I can do to reduce my OH? Has anyone else experienced the increase in OH since 3.1?
Your increased overheal is likely due to the new blooming mechanic of lifebloom. Aside from relying less on Lifebloom, there's not much you can do to mitigate this.
Swiftmend? Nourish? I don't understand reasoning behind spending glyph slot and up to 7 talent points to get castrated Nourish in the end.
Also best thing to avoid "people being unlucky" is to keep HoT's on them.
AGAIN?
GHT is not an "alternative" to Nourish. It's not like having GHT means you'll never cast Nourish. You need to quickly heal a person that doesn't have a hot on them? -> GHT. You need to quickly heal a person that does have a hot on them? -> Nourish/Swiftmend.
Unless, of course, you don't have the glyph of healing touch, in which case you're stuck with Nourish whether you like it or not.
If you have a dedicated "pick-em-up" healer (most likely a disc priest) then the whole GHT vs. Nourish discussion is absolutely moot because you'll never use either for raid healing, and I think we're all in agreement what's good for tank healing.
@ Cuddlekin Down to 1909 Spirit Raid Buffed (Changed some gems and enchants)
-Is 1900 Spirit really THAT much?
-Healing Power is >2200 Raid Buffed with flasks and what not (NOT including shammy totem), and Ive yet to see a significant differnce in heals (PER A HOT TICK) compared to druids who stack spell power, Yes I am aware that in the overall duration it heals for alot more but how often do your hots get to heal to thier full potental?
-And I get that Meta because my spell power is low therefore my heals/crit dont heal for as much, I havent been able to test it but I hope that helps me close the gap on what my nourish crits could be healing for if I stacked spell power....
Any Opinions and criticism would be nice!
@All Above Responses
-Lol I got more responses on how people pull the boss then if my healing strat was statisfactory, If I wanted help on that I'd post that in a differnt form xD
I think that's a lot of spirit. To me it seems unneeded. I run with 1106 spirit and 2415sp in tree unbuffed. I'm stacking spellpower and rarely ever have mana issues. I'm able to give my innervate to someone else, I keep full hots on the tanks at all times. I wild growth practically on cooldown for most fights and i use lifebloom inbetween WGs. I don't have 4pc t8 though, but if I did, I'd try out using rejuv in place of lifebloom on the raid (insta rejuv tick must be nice). As for Nourish, I don't have it glyphed, and I only use it whenever I have full hots on the target and swiftmend / NSHT is on CD. I don't use nourish to raid heal.
I play glyphed/spec'd HT, but it's not like I use it all night long. My non-HoTs make up between 15%-30% of my healing on any given fight. But if I see someone drop to 35% or so, and I don't have SM up... BAM! HT saves the day in .8 secs. That can be anywhere from a 5k-11k heal depending on your glyphs and if you crit. Nourish can't compete with that. You shouldn't be casting Nourish or HT all that much in the first place, so I opt for the speed and simplicity, and I don't have to worry about how many HoTs are on my target.
I play glyphed/spec'd HT, but it's not like I use it all night long. My non-HoTs make up between 15%-30% of my healing on any given fight. But if I see someone drop to 35% or so, and I don't have SM up... BAM! HT saves the day in .8 secs. That can be anywhere from a 5k-11k heal depending on your glyphs and if you crit. Nourish can't compete with that. You shouldn't be casting Nourish or HT all that much in the first place, so I opt for the speed and simplicity, and I don't have to worry about how many HoTs are on my target.
Nourish, assuming you've moved away from tier 7, shouldn't rely on hots to produce anyway.
And at any given time as a raid healer I am sitting with almost 20 raid members with at least 1 hot that can be SM'd anyway...
I don't see how the HT glyph for raiding is worth a major glyph slot in any way, shape, or form.
I play glyphed/spec'd HT, but it's not like I use it all night long. My non-HoTs make up between 15%-30% of my healing on any given fight. But if I see someone drop to 35% or so, and I don't have SM up... BAM! HT saves the day in .8 secs. That can be anywhere from a 5k-11k heal depending on your glyphs and if you crit. Nourish can't compete with that. You shouldn't be casting Nourish or HT all that much in the first place, so I opt for the speed and simplicity, and I don't have to worry about how many HoTs are on my target.
I honestly think glyphed ht is overkill but can see how this could be different for different guilds, in my personal experience when someone goes low they're either getting swiftmend a or a nourish from me. If it happens to be one of the few people that don't currently have a hot on them depending on how dire the situation is i'll either nourish without a hot (fast 4-5k heal) or apply one then nourish or regrowth.
However i can do this because my healing team works very well together, i can say with confidence if someone goes low that 2-3 people are going to react with equal speed, this means i personally don't have to be the one to top them. They're going to get love from our disc priest and a fol or holy shock from our paladin, this is complemented with any "smart heals" like cheal or wg (from our other resto druid) tickling them. Therefore me personally hitting them for 13k is not required. If the group of healers you raid with are considerably slower than you such that you know you need to spray heals around like you’re a paladin then go for it, but there is already a class designed to exactly what your speccing and glyphing for, get them to play to their strengths and you play to yours.
Nourish, assuming you've moved away from tier 7, shouldn't rely on hots to produce anyway.
And at any given time as a raid healer I am sitting with almost 20 raid members with at least 1 hot that can be SM'd anyway...
I don't see how the HT glyph for raiding is worth a major glyph slot in any way, shape, or form.
Nourish by itself, without the glyph or the t7 bonus receives a 20% bonus to its heal if there is a HoT present on the target. As such nourish will ALWAYS rely on HoTs to produce. By not having a hot on your nourished target you are gimping your Nourish by 20%. On a related note, the wording of the Glyph/T7 states that it increases the healing for each additional HoT present on the target. This means that even with the Glyph/T7 bonus I am only receiving a 20% bonus to my Nourish if I only have 1 hot active. Where the Teir/Glyph starts to shine is in a single target healing situation, where it is very likely that a druid will be rolling 2-3 HoTs on the target at all times anyways.
Swiftmend is also on a 15s cooldown. While I agree that this is enough to cover most cases, It is most assuredly not enough to cover them all. Now, we can have disagreements and discussion about GHT all day, I think the post preceding mine summed it up best. Is it the most efficient use of our talents/glyphs? Probably not. Depending on your role in the raid though, it could be a useful tool.
Would I recommend every druid glyphs for GHT? No. I also wouldnt look at them like they were stupid for doing so. If you are almost always called on for raid healing, a combination of any of Wild Growth, Swiftmend, Rejuvenation, Healing Touch, or Innervate could also be argued for or against. Other than Wild Growth, nothing on that list screams nessecity. With no mana issues, and the supposedly buggy mechanic on Rejuvenation, Healing Touch at least appears viable.
06/05/09, 12:44 PM
