I honestly think glyphed ht is overkill but can see how this could be different for different guilds, in my personal experience when someone goes low they're either getting swiftmend a or a nourish from me. If it happens to be one of the few people that don't currently have a hot on them depending on how dire the situation is i'll either nourish without a hot (fast 4-5k heal) or apply one then nourish or regrowth.
However i can do this because my healing team works very well together, i can say with confidence if someone goes low that 2-3 people are going to react with equal speed, this means i personally don't have to be the one to top them. They're going to get love from our disc priest and a fol or holy shock from our paladin, this is complemented with any "smart heals" like cheal or wg (from our other resto druid) tickling them. Therefore me personally hitting them for 13k is not required. If the group of healers you raid with are considerably slower than you such that you know you need to spray heals around like you’re a paladin then go for it, but there is already a class designed to exactly what your speccing and glyphing for, get them to play to their strengths and you play to yours.
We're typically running with 3 trees, a pally, a shammy, and a priest that is dual spec'd disc/holy. I can say with confidence that I bring raiders up from dangerous health levels almost every single boss encounter with GHT. Sure, sometimes I lose a little efficiency and top spot on meters if I use it too much, but it's better than being too late with a nourish and overhealing, or worse, letting the target die. As the poster above me notes, it's not like I'm losing anything notable when our glyph options are all unpredictably adding, what, <1% to our healing?
I'm hoping that when T9 comes out, they change the Rejuv glyph to be the current T8 bonus. I think trees will be very sad to let go of that instant rejuv bonus.
On a related note, the wording of the Glyph/T7 states that it increases the healing for each additional HoT present on the target. This means that even with the Glyph/T7 bonus I am only receiving a 20% bonus to my Nourish if I only have 1 hot active.
That is not how I read the Glyph description (4t7 is similar):
Your Nourish heals an additional 6% for each of your heal over time effects present on the target.
To me that says one HoT = 6% additional healing (over and above the 20% from the spell tooltip).
I have not tested this to confirm which interpretation is correct.
Edit:
Originally Posted by wws
2:59'08.544 Kelt gains Wild Growth. #36000
2:59'10.529 Kelt gains 736 health from Erdluf Wild Growth. #36141
2:59'10.732 Kelt gains 1079 health from Erdluf Regrowth. #36142
2:59'11.076 Kelt gains 398 health from Erdluf Lifebloom. #36169
2:59'11.545 Kelt gains 1962 health from Erdluf Rejuvenation. (1198 Overheal) #36192
2:59'12.092 Kelt gains 399 health from Erdluf Lifebloom. #36231
2:59'12.576 Kelt gains 661 health from Erdluf Wild Growth. #36265
2:59'13.045 Kelt gains 398 health from Erdluf Lifebloom. #36286
2:59'13.045 Erdluf Lifebloom heals Kelt for 3195. #36287
2:59'13.139 Erdluf Lifebloom was removed from Kelt. #36288
2:59'13.514 Kelt gains 624 health from Erdluf Wild Growth. #36317
2:59'13.717 Kelt gains 1079 health from Erdluf Regrowth. #36322
2:59'14.467 Kelt gains 1963 health from Erdluf Rejuvenation. #36365
2:59'14.499 Kelt gains 587 health from Erdluf Wild Growth. #36372
2:59'15.514 Kelt gains 550 health from Erdluf Wild Growth. #36427
2:59'15.514 Erdluf Wild Growth was removed from Kelt. #36428
2:59'16.171 Erdluf Nourish heals Kelt for 5915. (4271 Overheal) #36476
2:59'20.469 Erdluf Rejuvenation was removed from Kelt. #36683
2:59'34.721 Erdluf Regrowth was removed from Kelt. #36828
This seems to confirm my interpretation. Ticks are consistent with 2286 spellpower:
Rejuv: (338+2286*1.2*.376)*(1+.05+.1+.15)*1.04*1.06 = 1962.6
Regrowth: (335+2286*1.2*.188)*(1+.05+.1)*1.04*1.06 = 1078.5
Lifebloom: (53+2286*1.2*.09518)*(1+.05+.1)*1.04*1.06 = 398.2
Wild Growth middle tick (2:59:12): (1442/7+2286*1.2*.11508)*(1+.05+.1)*1.04*1.06 = 661.4
Nourish range is
(1883+2286*.671)*1.2*1.1*1.04*1.06*(1+glyph_bonus)
(2187+2286*.671)*1.2*1.1*1.04*1.06*(1+glyph_bonus)
Note that at the time of Nourish, two HoTs were still on the target.
With a glyph bonus of 6%, the range is 5270-5740. With a glyph bonus of 12% the range is 5568-6064. Logged heal was 5915.
Note: some of these coefficients are from wowwiki and don't match those at the start of the EJ Itemization thread. WG numbers are consistent with the first tick gaining (1/7 + 6%) of the base damge. Each successive tick loses 2% of the base damage. The log contains ticks 2,4,5,6,7.
Last edited by Erdluf : 06/09/09 at 10:08 AM.
Reason: Log results
We're typically running with 3 trees, a pally, a shammy, and a priest that is dual spec'd disc/holy. I can say with confidence that I bring raiders up from dangerous health levels almost every single boss encounter with GHT. Sure, sometimes I lose a little efficiency and top spot on meters if I use it too much, but it's better than being too late with a nourish and overhealing, or worse, letting the target die. As the poster above me notes, it's not like I'm losing anything notable when our glyph options are all unpredictably adding, what, <1% to our healing?
I'm hoping that when T9 comes out, they change the Rejuv glyph to be the current T8 bonus. I think trees will be very sad to let go of that instant rejuv bonus.
With three trees you should have very little use for GHT. If you don't have a HoT on someone, someone else is bound to; Nourish if its yours, Swiftmend if it isn't. I'm the only tree on my raid team, and while I have been tempted to try GHT I generally have enough other options available and better things to use my glyphs for. If I'm running hots on half the raid I don't strictly have to toss a heal at anyone in the other half who takes damage, so at worst I can just trust the other healers who have a quicker/more efficient solution to deal with certain situations and work on the rest. We all want to do everything, but sometimes its better if we don't.
That is not how I read the Glyph description (4t7 is similar):
Your Nourish heals an additional 6% for each of your heal over time effects present on the target.
To me that says one HoT = 6% additional healing (over and above the 20% from the spell tooltip).
I have not tested this to confirm which interpretation is correct.
Edit:
This seems to confirm my interpretation. Ticks are consistent with 2286 spellpower:
Rejuv: (338+2286*1.2*.376)*(1+.05+.1+.15)*1.04*1.06 = 1962.6
Regrowth: (335+2286*1.2*.188)*(1+.05+.1)*1.04*1.06 = 1078.5
Lifebloom: (53+2286*1.2*.09518)*(1+.05+.1)*1.04*1.06 = 398.2
Wild Growth middle tick (2:59:12): (1442/7+2286*1.2*.11508)*(1+.05+.1)*1.04*1.06 = 661.4
Nourish range is
(1883+2286*.671)*1.2*1.1*1.04*1.06*(1+glyph_bonus)
(2187+2286*.671)*1.2*1.1*1.04*1.06*(1+glyph_bonus)
Note that at the time of Nourish, two HoTs were still on the target.
With a glyph bonus of 6%, the range is 5270-5740. With a glyph bonus of 12% the range is 5568-6064. Logged heal was 5915.
Note: some of these coefficients are from wowwiki and don't match those at the start of the EJ Itemization thread. WG numbers are consistent with the first tick gaining (1/7 + 6%) of the base damge. Each successive tick loses 2% of the base damage. The log contains ticks 2,4,5,6,7.
I checked the WG coefficient and it seems indeed incorrect. I don't know if something has changed during the time, or that I made an error (although I am certain I doublechecked everything while writing that post). What is on WoWWiki is incorrect however, all hot ticks receive the same absolute increase. Here are some numbers I just tested today:
0 healing, out of treeform:
339
305
271
237
203
169
135
Total healing: 1659 (and NOT 1442 what the tooltip suggests; the increase is 15% which comes from Genesis and Gift of Nature)
2195, out of treeform:
686
653
619
585
552
518
484
Total: 4097
Total increase of 2438, meaning total coefficent of 1.111 without ToL or MS modifiers, or 1.111*1.06*1.04=1.224 with.
Also you can see that each tick is increased with about 348.
27 healing (from base spirit), in treeform:
377
340
304
266
229
191
154
Total: 1861
Increase of 2853, coefficient: 1.225. Each tick is increased with around 407.
This makes me believe that fully talented in ToL each Wild Growth tick will get increased by 0.175 of the amount of spellpower we have. I have updated it on the first post of the itemization thread.
I play glyphed/spec'd HT, but it's not like I use it all night long. My non-HoTs make up between 15%-30% of my healing on any given fight. But if I see someone drop to 35% or so, and I don't have SM up... BAM! HT saves the day in .8 secs. That can be anywhere from a 5k-11k heal depending on your glyphs and if you crit. Nourish can't compete with that. You shouldn't be casting Nourish or HT all that much in the first place, so I opt for the speed and simplicity, and I don't have to worry about how many HoTs are on my target.
My Nourish casts in just over 1 second, once it crits I can almost guarantee chain casts of 1 second. With zero hots on a target(which is very rare-considering rejuv. should be all over the place) it hits for approx. 4k and crits for close to 6.5k I believe(hopefully I am right on this-just guessing from memory). Your crit rate is 17% on your GHT, I think mine is about 37% on Nourish. In order to to maximize your GHT you have given up %20-%30 threat reduction, all points in regrowth(which is still a useful spell) and your NS+HT. You gave up all of this for a spell you admittedly don't use that much:/.
I am not saying you are right or wrong, but the opportunity cost just seems a bit high for something I am not even sure is better. This debate has been going on for a long time and I try to understand it, but just can't. I just think Nourish offers about the same thing at no real cost. If you are needing a .8 second cast heal, I would wonder what is going on with your raid. Your strength as a druid is not Nourish and HT anyway so spending lots of talent points on those things just doesn't compute for me.
Your increased overheal is likely due to the new blooming mechanic of lifebloom. Aside from relying less on Lifebloom, there's not much you can do to mitigate this.
I don't use lifebloom very often. And when I do, it is only on tanks.
My Nourish casts in just over 1 second, once it crits I can almost guarantee chain casts of 1 second. With zero hots on a target(which is very rare-considering rejuv. should be all over the place) it hits for approx. 4k and crits for close to 6.5k I believe(hopefully I am right on this-just guessing from memory). Your crit rate is 17% on your GHT, I think mine is about 37% on Nourish. In order to to maximize your GHT you have given up %20-%30 threat reduction, all points in regrowth(which is still a useful spell) and your NS+HT. You gave up all of this for a spell you admittedly don't use that much:/.
I am not saying you are right or wrong, but the opportunity cost just seems a bit high for something I am not even sure is better. This debate has been going on for a long time and I try to understand it, but just can't. I just think Nourish offers about the same thing at no real cost. If you are needing a .8 second cast heal, I would wonder what is going on with your raid. Your strength as a druid is not Nourish and HT anyway so spending lots of talent points on those things just doesn't compute for me.
I felt like my hands were tied too often as a tree in scary situations, and unfortunately, that is quite often in my guild. The trick to being comfortable with the spec, for me, was finding the line between casting it too much and just enough. Only recently have I found that line. Sometimes I still cross it, and y'know maybe I'd be just as effective with Nourish, but during the weeks I tried it, it just didn't work for me.
I don't use Regrowth all that often anymore, and mostly it's just for extra hots on tanks, not for the initial heal, so the RG/Nourish crit talent is replaced by HT easily. I look at any crit bonuses as merely bonuses, and prefer speed greatly to that. The loss of NS+HT is not really a loss now that I use NS on my brez macro instead. Stopping to brez can be very disruptive if you are trying to rez an OT while the raid is taking big damage.
I encourage you to take a look at this parse for a sample of the spec in a typical raid. There are two other trees that were there part of the time as well, one with a much more "traditional" spec and style, Nebulx, (coincidentally, I think he recspec'd yesterday to drop the RG crit points, so don't look him up...), and the other has a long way to go and should probably be ignored.
If you see something I'm doing wrong, I am very open-minded about revisiting my spec and glyphs.
I felt like my hands were tied too often as a tree in scary situations, and unfortunately, that is quite often in my guild. The trick to being comfortable with the spec, for me, was finding the line between casting it too much and just enough. Only recently have I found that line. Sometimes I still cross it, and y'know maybe I'd be just as effective with Nourish, but during the weeks I tried it, it just didn't work for me.
I don't use Regrowth all that often anymore, and mostly it's just for extra hots on tanks, not for the initial heal, so the RG/Nourish crit talent is replaced by HT easily. I look at any crit bonuses as merely bonuses, and prefer speed greatly to that. The loss of NS+HT is not really a loss now that I use NS on my brez macro instead. Stopping to brez can be very disruptive if you are trying to rez an OT while the raid is taking big damage.
I encourage you to take a look at this parse for a sample of the spec in a typical raid. There are two other trees that were there part of the time as well, one with a much more "traditional" spec and style, Nebulx, (coincidentally, I think he recspec'd yesterday to drop the RG crit points, so don't look him up...), and the other has a long way to go and should probably be ignored.
If you see something I'm doing wrong, I am very open-minded about revisiting my spec and glyphs.
Like I said, I am not saying you are right or wrong. If it fits your style and you are successful then power to you. I just believe that Blizzard provides us with a certain amount of resources to do a job: so many gem slots, so many talent points etc. etc. and I don't necessarily believe you are maximizing that. BUT, that is just my opinion and that is all it is. Anyway, have fun and good luck to ya.
Personally, I could never get rid of NS+HT. Just this past weekend we killed Hodir 25 for the first time and during that fight the MT's health went way into the red and I dropped a 17k NS+HT on him. I was raid healing, but to be able to dump that kind of heal in an instant is priceless and probably saved the raid. Once that cushion was in place the MT healers had him back to 100% quickly. I think this is far more valuable than NS+Rebirth, which I can still do if I want to.
Personally, I could never get rid of NS+HT. Just this past weekend we killed Hodir 25 for the first time and during that fight the MT's health went way into the red and I dropped a 17k NS+HT on him. I was raid healing, but to be able to dump that kind of heal in an instant is priceless and probably saved the raid. Once that cushion was in place the MT healers had him back to 100% quickly. I think this is far more valuable than NS+Rebirth, which I can still do if I want to.
Hodir's swing timer is 2.4 secs. With quick response time I could get two HTs off in that time. For insurance I have my [Scale of Fates] macro'd into my HT. That would bring my GCD down to 1sec I believe. With rejuv glyph, that's about 16.5k healed before the next hit. In practice, I would probably have gotten only 1 of those heals off, or had a SM in there, before a pally or someone else was already finishing the job. But just sayin'...
I encourage you to take a look at this parse for a sample of the spec in a typical raid. There are two other trees that were there part of the time as well, one with a much more "traditional" spec and style, Nebulx, (coincidentally, I think he recspec'd yesterday to drop the RG crit points, so don't look him up...), and the other has a long way to go and should probably be ignored.
If you see something I'm doing wrong, I am very open-minded about revisiting my spec and glyphs.
It's hard to compare you two too much since Nebulx was only there for the last few fights, but here's what I see. Your HT crit 24% of the time for a total average healing of 4898 after 33.8% overheal. Nebulx crit on 48% of his 23 Nourish casts, averaging 5135 healed after 21.5% overheal. Aianea's Nourish averaged 1989 with 70.5% overheal. Adding the overheal back in your HT was hitting for 6545 Neb's Nourish was hitting for 6541 on average, and Aia's Nourish did 6742. Small sample size, but the Nourishes were being cast on a lot of different raid members and you all had 40+% healing from RJ so I'm sure the hots were all over the raid. For the way you are saying you use HT it seems like Nourish would fill the same niche without taking a glyph slot and talent points.
I felt like my hands were tied too often as a tree in scary situations, and unfortunately, that is quite often in my guild. The trick to being comfortable with the spec, for me, was finding the line between casting it too much and just enough. Only recently have I found that line. Sometimes I still cross it, and y'know maybe I'd be just as effective with Nourish, but during the weeks I tried it, it just didn't work for me.
I don't use Regrowth all that often anymore, and mostly it's just for extra hots on tanks, not for the initial heal, so the RG/Nourish crit talent is replaced by HT easily. I look at any crit bonuses as merely bonuses, and prefer speed greatly to that. The loss of NS+HT is not really a loss now that I use NS on my brez macro instead. Stopping to brez can be very disruptive if you are trying to rez an OT while the raid is taking big damage.
I encourage you to take a look at this parse for a sample of the spec in a typical raid. There are two other trees that were there part of the time as well, one with a much more "traditional" spec and style, Nebulx, (coincidentally, I think he recspec'd yesterday to drop the RG crit points, so don't look him up...), and the other has a long way to go and should probably be ignored.
If you see something I'm doing wrong, I am very open-minded about revisiting my spec and glyphs.
Your healing charts seem very strange. You have a paladin as almost the top healer which should not be happening if your other healers are doing their jobs (not to say pallies can't be up there, but it is almost always shamans, druids, and priests).
For Ignis, which is a very raid healer friendly fight, the pally is on top and your HPS is almost 1k lower than his which I find extremely odd. For Hodir you're at 3300 hps which is almost 2k lower than what I usually see trees at.
Here was a Hodir fight from last week: Wow Web Stats
It's hard to compare you two too much since Nebulx was only there for the last few fights, but here's what I see. Your HT crit 24% of the time for a total average healing of 4898 after 33.8% overheal. Nebulx crit on 48% of his 23 Nourish casts, averaging 5135 healed after 21.5% overheal. Aianea's Nourish averaged 1989 with 70.5% overheal. Adding the overheal back in your HT was hitting for 6545 Neb's Nourish was hitting for 6541 on average, and Aia's Nourish did 6742. Small sample size, but the Nourishes were being cast on a lot of different raid members and you all had 40+% healing from RJ so I'm sure the hots were all over the raid. For the way you are saying you use HT it seems like Nourish would fill the same niche without taking a glyph slot and talent points.
That is kind of my point, I'm saying that gHT and Nourish are very comparable, just that I like the speed and that there is no HoT requirement at all. You say "taking a glyph slot" but that's moot because the slot would go to Nourish anyway, right?
Why aren't there any hots on the people taking this sudden spike damage?
Because a single druid cannot guarantee full hot coverage on 25 people. Also, GHT beats Nourish with a single hot both in terms of HPS and in terms of amount healed (at least with my gear), and it is not practical to maintain 2 hots on the raid (and at any rate it would take 3 hots for Nourish to do better than GHT).
Your healing charts seem very strange. You have a paladin as almost the top healer which should not be happening if your other healers are doing their jobs (not to say pallies can't be up there, but it is almost always shamans, druids, and priests).
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That paladin was judging light. If you have to have a holy judging light, it'll bring their numbers up quite a bit. Normally you have a ret do it since theirs is much much more powerful.
edit: I'm surprised hardly anyone runs the regrowth glyph anymore. I personally prefer it over the nourish glyph because I cast regrowth a lot more and having a 20% stronger hot on the tanks is nice.
edit: I'm surprised hardly anyone runs the regrowth glyph anymore. I personally prefer it over the nourish glyph because I cast regrowth a lot more and having a 20% stronger hot on the tanks is nice.
What do you use Regrowth for, aside from keeping it up on tank?
My experience with Regrowth: 10-15% healed, glyph generally adds 10% to this number (so 11-16.5% ish). HPS gain on the tank isn't very high because Regrowth has low HPS compared to other hots.
Because a single druid cannot guarantee full hot coverage on 25 people. Also, GHT beats Nourish with a single hot both in terms of HPS and in terms of amount healed (at least with my gear), and it is not practical to maintain 2 hots on the raid (and at any rate it would take 3 hots for Nourish to do better than GHT).
How do you guys play with no threat reduction? 2/3 sub is bad enough let alone 0/3. Don't you lose a bunch of healing from just having to be more cautious or dead? As much healing as a druid can do, I am usually up there on threat.
How do you guys play with no threat reduction? 2/3 sub is bad enough let alone 0/3. Don't you lose a bunch of healing from just having to be more cautious or dead? As much healing as a druid can do, I am usually up there on threat.
The worst fight I can think of in terms of threat is Thorim arena, and I seem to have no problems with a competent DK tank. Threat is a non-issue the vast majority of the time in Ulduar.
The worst fight I can think of in terms of threat is Thorim arena, and I seem to have no problems with a competent DK tank. Threat is a non-issue the vast majority of the time in Ulduar.
No offense, but I would say that making the job of the tanks a bit easier is good. Dropping those points to get GHT over Nourish for a few more HPS just does not seem worth it.
Your healing charts seem very strange. You have a paladin as almost the top healer which should not be happening if your other healers are doing their jobs (not to say pallies can't be up there, but it is almost always shamans, druids, and priests).
For Ignis, which is a very raid healer friendly fight, the pally is on top and your HPS is almost 1k lower than his which I find extremely odd. For Hodir you're at 3300 hps which is almost 2k lower than what I usually see trees at.
Here was a Hodir fight from last week: Wow Web Stats
I died in the pot on Ignis, that's why my healing was so much lower. Had to get rezzed and 'vated, and lost my buffs.
The paladin is high on charts because he is probably trying to rock the meters in addition to watching the tank. No comment. Our tank healing is usually fine, so it's a hard battle to start.
As for Hodir, I'm not really sure other than that I know for a fact it is our sloppiest fight, and it is dragged out much longer than most.
Because a single druid cannot guarantee full hot coverage on 25 people. Also, GHT beats Nourish with a single hot both in terms of HPS and in terms of amount healed (at least with my gear), and it is not practical to maintain 2 hots on the raid (and at any rate it would take 3 hots for Nourish to do better than GHT).
I'm pretty sure this is about having more than 2 resto druids in a raid and having to pick up GHT to allow for diversity in tools for handling spike damage. In that situation, there is no reason not to expect a hot an every single raid member. If you are the only resto druid in a raid, there is no argument for GHT. The other classes, as mentioned above, all have tools to deal with people taking unexpected life threatening damage.
What do you use Regrowth for, aside from keeping it up on tank?
My experience with Regrowth: 10-15% healed, glyph generally adds 10% to this number (so 11-16.5% ish). HPS gain on the tank isn't very high because Regrowth has low HPS compared to other hots.
Not a whole lot really, but here and there. It's usually probably a bit under 10% of my healing done, but that's still more than I heal with nourish.
It's not a big deal either way, but I like to have maximum strength hots on the tank while I raid heal. I sometimes swap to the nourish glyph for 10 man content since I do more tank healing there.
No offense, but I would say that making the job of the tanks a bit easier is good. Dropping those points to get GHT over Nourish for a few more HPS just does not seem worth it.
I'm not sure any tank actually says to himself "Hmm healer threat looks kinda high, I better try to do more TPS". Ever. They get way more heat from the DPS.
That said, no, I do not have threat issues despite the loss of subtlety, unless one of two things happen.
1. I lead the pull with a big RJ/SM on the tank while he's getting into position.
2. The tank is slow to pick up adds that spawn during Freya.
06/09/09, 8:31 AM
