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Old 04/20/09, 7:44 PM   #1021
grimtage
Von Kaiser
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Dragonblight (EU)
Originally Posted by Paininabox View Post
I completely agree that having a really quick heal to snap out some life-saving healing is very good. However, the point being raised is whether the sacrifice one makes for this ability is worth the loses on other fronts. Yes, you save a dps when he would otherwise die and you effectively grant your raid an additional 4k dps that it wouldn't have had otherwise. However, there comes a point when the sacrifice hurts your overall healing and puts additional stress on other healers because you are less strong in areas that you took hits in to take glyphed HT and associated talents.

My main issue with the popularity of this spell is that you portray that the person would die without the .5s cast HT. I raise the contention that if you cannot afford the time of a 1.4-1.2s cast or you cannot rely on a 15 sec cooldown swiftmend/ NS+HT, then there's more wrong in your raid than you not keeping up. The encounters aren't balanced for you to require whip-crack glyphed HT speed heals to keep people up. If the window is really that small, you either royally screwed up prior to that by waiting too long to heal, or the healee was doing something stupid and in that case probably deserve to die if the damage is that fast. Healers have the ability to make up for people's mistakes more than others, which has grown into a kind of expectation that you're responsible for making up for them. There comes a point where you have to decide whether it's your fault for letting the guy die or his fault for riverdancing in the void zones. Of course there are instances when it's no fault of their own, whether through bad luck or encounter mechanics, but you should be able to cope with them, between yourself and the team of healers in the raid. You shouldn't have to shoulder all of the responsibility for every near-death experience.
Totally, if every encounter were to be executed perfectly then GHT would be absolutely useless. However, the main cause of wipes is people not performing perfectly. The only reason healers are there is to make sure the raid can survive long enough to kill the boss. If the boss mechanic is such that, like on Razorscale, there is a fire put on the floor that can gib people in 2 seconds if they decide to stand in it then GHT can and will save people that other spells in our arsenal won't. It won't keep them indefinitely alive in the fire, but it will give them that extra second/tick of life before they die that might prove the difference between them dying and them surviving. If you do this only 3 times in a fight then that's 3 raid members you've kept alive. Granted, a priest shield would be a much much better way of doing this, and thus it's hardly ever worth taking GHT. In fact, I haven't used it once since Ulduar came out, but I can see why one would want it in very specific circumstances and thus there is no reason against respecing to learn certain encounters where it can counter raid stupidity. My mission statement isn't to convince people to use GHT all the time, it's merely to convince people that it has a niche and is not useless.

If you're assigned to raid healing on Razorscale, which would be bad to be honest, as healers all have to sometimes move and what's going to heal the tank whilst healers are moving if not HoTs? Anyway, it's hypothetical, so if you're assigned to raid healing on Razorscale, then GHT is worth speccing into, it's worth losing Nature's Grace, it's worth losing Revitalise, it's probably even worth losing Living Seed. Again, this is a very specific example and it's only if your raid is partial to standing in fires, but still - it's a niche.

p.s. I agree that we should just let the dumb bastards die, but I can't seem to stop myself for wanting to keep those green bars green!

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Old 04/20/09, 8:26 PM   #1022
Paininabox
Piston Honda
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Runetotem
I'm not denying it has a niche. I'm just contesting that we already have tools to save people, and that when they are used wisely, they are more than adequate for dealing with all situations. Plus, it's not like you're all alone; every healer has 1-3 "save me" buttons to pop. Pooling the healer's resources together, you have a formidable amount of burst healing to cope with these things. I admit that it could be a viable choice for progression, stupid raids, and people with bad latency. However, the scope of its worth in the rare situations where the .5-.6s difference in cast times can save someone is too small to warrant any real permanence to the build. Our standard arsenal can already cover 80-90% of near-death scenarios. It's better in the long run to just teach the morons how to raid/kick them out instead of sacrificing healing power to enable them to be bad. A glyphed HT build is a bandaid fix to stupidity in the raid/poor gear. If you feel like you need the thing just to down bosses because people won't fix their mistakes, then tell them that if they die they won't get any dkp/gear for the night. That tends to make people pay attention.

Level 80 Restoration Druid Spreadsheet here.
(v1.41)

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Old 04/21/09, 12:26 AM   #1023
Lord BEEF
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by grimtage View Post
You saying that GHT is worthless compared to Nourish
I never said that. I said it's not worth the opportunity cost, which is 7 talent points and a glyph slot.

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Old 04/21/09, 1:28 AM   #1024
Ezarg
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Uldum
I think when you consider GHT vs. Nourish you have to ask yourself whether the extra health from the GHT over unglyphed and unhotted Nourish is really that important.

It's absolutely true that using Nourish without a glyph or 4T7 bonus and without hots on the target is absolutely inefficient in all sorts of ways. But if your mana regen can support it and there is no need for the extra 4k or so health on the cast then why not? Now that Nourish actually can crit fairly often, it's a very viable way to give someone ~6k or so health with no preparation or cooldown at a very small overall mana cost in under a second (if you have enough haste). Doesn't matter if it goes sub-GCD - it's still better if you can give someone that health sooner.

Sure talented and glyphed healing touch will do better job, but is it worth creating the whole talent tree and set of glyphs just so you can use HT on certain fights while Nourish will perform just as well? People don't have infinite health pools and there are other healers in the raid so when someone goes down to 20% you typically see immediately 8k or so incoming heals on his health bar - you throw your 6k in from Nourish and job's done - time to move to another unlucky guy.

So in my opinion it's mostly a matter what other healers you're raiding with and how you team up doing healing. If you have a very strict environment where noone will ever cast a heal on "your" target then maybe GHT is a way to go. But at least in my experience that's not really the case.

EDIT:

And to respond to someone earlier:
Originally Posted by Foxery View Post
I must say I'm scratching my head a lot, reading these past few pages. How is there still a serious discussion about Druids going back to a "direct heals" play style, after how many times this idea has been refuted? Our niche is HOTs, Blizzard has stated that they like it that way, and it still works just fine. You can always roll a paladin. I don't know, they seem dull to me. If anything, I'm enjoying the 3.1 mechanics, and blowing through [today's hot raid zone] with plenty of mana and raid members staying alive.
Well, that strictly depends on your raid composition. If you have no holy pallies in the raid, then someone has to do that job. Ulduar sucks without holy pallies. There is so many encounters designed for direct damage healing. In so many encounters hots just don't cut it where people get whacked for 60% of their life just to get whacked for another 60% one or two seconds later. If you can give them that 30% of their health bar quickly you'll save them, otherwise they will die. We have to now resort to rather arcane methods of healing if there are no viable options of healing direct raid damage, or this does become a total faceroll and in the end faceroll wins because it's just simpler and more effective - simply put there are so many cases where people can't wait for a rejuv tick, regrowth is just a plain waste of mana because the HoT is pointless with such widespread raid damage and the need to keep everyone topped off at all costs, and lifebloom just got too expensive in general to just toss it around everywhere (and it just doesn't tick for enough within first couple seconds). So what are we left with?

I like healing, I like playing druids, it's just disheartening how one-dimensional this became in this expansion - at least for me. Maybe it's just lack of holy paladins in our raids that causes this misery, but honestly I'm coming to conclusion that with exception for a couple of fights, it would be hard to justify bringing in a tree vs a paladin in Ulduar, given the choice and basing the decision upon purely effectiveness of healing.

Last edited by Ezarg : 04/21/09 at 1:48 AM.

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Old 04/21/09, 1:52 AM   #1025
art3d
Glass Joe
 
Пампкин
Night Elf Druid
 
Non-US/EU Server (EU)
Originally Posted by Lord BEEF View Post
Having done some Ulduar healing, I can say that living seed is easily worth the talent points. Even though my top two healing spells by far are rejuvenation and wild growth, living seed is still accounting for roughly 3-5% of my overall healing, and was nearly 10% of my total healing on Vesax.

I can't imagine glyphed healing touch being worth all of the talent points and glyph slot honestly. If you run it and have naturalist you run into issues with the cast time being lower than one second. When this happens, you run into the same problem moonkin do with wrath and nature's grace. Essentially you can't queue another spell without getting the 'not ready' message so it takes 1sec + latency + reaction time and it's not any faster to chain than nourish.

For people that are really low I've been sticking with regrowth because of the massive amount of total healing that it does. I use nourish mainly just for tank healing. With a 40% crit rate and crits of about 10k I've been fairly impressed with it.

Here are some charts for reference: WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish
Guys! I was soooo wrong about Healing Touch strategy! I have tested it on most bosses and compared it to rg/nourish and it really does suck =( Anyway, I am very glad that now i am sure which way to go. The only thing i regret is that someone new to tree raiding would run into my post and copy bad ideas. Just delete it, please.
PS: the only question that remains now (for me atleast) is wether to go wg/nourish/swiftmend or wg/nourish/inner , for now i am leaning to the latter.
Sorry for all the typos, kinda tired after 12 hrs of raiding )

Last edited by art3d : 04/21/09 at 2:01 AM.

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Old 04/21/09, 4:14 AM   #1026
Fallenangel
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Chromaggus (EU)
So, why are people casting nourish?
As a tank heal - Ok, I can see it as a viable tank heal if you're forced to do it. I find it be the case very rarely, prominent examples being Ignis and a plasma-blasting Mimiron. I guess it's useful for hard-mode Vezax as well with a specific build/glyph/gear set - namely 4t7.
As a raid heal - This is where I stumble. If the target just lost a few K, a rejuv costs less, heals for more and takes less time to cast. If the target is going to take more damage soon, regrowth gives more or less the same amount of upfront heal plus an excellent hot (to the guy above who said regrowth hot is useless, I suggest you install some form of combat parser). And the worst problem is, if the target doesn't have a hot on it, it heals for basically nothing. Nourish is just a big "win-more" spell to me in that regard. People complain about the opportunity cost of GHT when they glyph a spell that accounts for a small fraction of their total heals, a glyph that only helps it in certain situations. I haven't tried GHT myself as I'm a big regrowth fan but I'd certainly go for that over nourish as a raid heal. Tell me regrowth takes more time to cast than nourish and sometimes your target won't last that long? I'll tell you GHT takes even less to cast. I'll also tell you you just healed someone for 4k which is not even 20% of his HP.

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Old 04/21/09, 4:24 AM   #1027
Styr
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Kil'Jaeden (EU)
My 25-man raid group managed to bring down only the first three Ulduar bosses, so my experience may not be sufficient to come to the conclusion that Blizzard changed resto druid healing mechanics not to the better. Before patch 3.1 we were a class with a somewhat strict lifebloom cycle restricted by the omnipresent global cooldown (which was dull on the long run). Our main job was to stabilize the MT/MTs with three stacks of Lifebloom.
After patch 3.1 we are a class who is most effective hiting the rejuvenation button every global cooldown, interrupted by the occasional Wild Growth. Healing predictable moderate damage is our strength more than ever. Four pieces of T8 will push our healing output so drastically that it would be most unwise to give us any different assignment. I don't think that healing as a resto druid is now more exciting than before. The question I am asking myself now is if healing became even less exciting... I wish they would have changed Regrowth or Lifebloom to a somewhat worthwhile raid heal. I don't see their usefulness in this particular situation.

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Old 04/21/09, 4:29 AM   #1028
ttyl
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Destromath
Originally Posted by Lord BEEF View Post
I said it's not worth the opportunity cost, which is 7 talent points and a glyph slot.
Where would those 7 points go and what glyphs would you use instead? Most likely 5/5 Nature's Bounty and either Nourish or RG glyph. With GHT, there is no reason to use Nourish or Regrowth for direct heals, making 5/5 Nature's Bounty and those glyphs a very small increase in healing.
Originally Posted by Ezarg View Post
Doesn't matter if it goes sub-GCD - it's still better if you can give someone that health sooner.
This is exactly why GHT is good, except you're refering to Nourish in that statement.

EDIT:
Originally Posted by Fallenangel View Post
Tell me regrowth takes more time to cast than nourish and sometimes your target won't last that long? I'll tell you GHT takes even less to cast. I'll also tell you you just healed someone for 4k which is not even 20% of his HP.
Yes, exactly. There is no reason to use Nourish or Regrowth for a direct heal. If you're using either to save someone's life, GHT will do it faster. If you're using either to top people off, that is usually not a good use of our time/mana. I will try to put it as simple as possible:

Ever use a direct heal to save someone (while Swiftmend/NS are on cooldown)? Use GHT.
Ever use a direct heal to top off someone that is not in danger? Let HoTs or "smart" heals eventually do it.

p.s. ty for the term GHT!!!

Last edited by ttyl : 04/21/09 at 4:55 AM.

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Old 04/21/09, 5:21 AM   #1029
Rijndael
Don Flamenco
 
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Dwarf Priest
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Fallenangel View Post
So, why are people casting nourish?
You cast nourish when other healers would be forced to rely on flash heal/lesser healing wave. In other words, if the target needs to be topped off NOW. Examples: Mimiron's napalm. Nourish hits as hard as flash heal, and crits a lot, and leaves a living seed. This is useful for continuous burst damage like napalm.

Last edited by Rijndael : 04/21/09 at 5:48 AM.

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Old 04/21/09, 5:29 AM   #1030
Kalitari
Von Kaiser
 
Human Death Knight
 
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
Is there theorycraft anywhere where you can see the HPM and HPS of all current druid healing spells in one table? I'd be interested in seeing how talenting and glyphing affects the viability of Healing Touch... The fact that you can get HT casting time down to 1.0 seconds - Haste seems very, very fast but I have no idea how good it is (HPM/HPS) when compared to other options.

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Old 04/21/09, 6:00 AM   #1031
Mesmerelda
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Uther
I see Nourish is just another part of our large healing toolkit, and so it gets used accordingly and when the situation warrants.

I use Rejuv and WG quite a bit of course, but Swiftmend (which I also use quite a lot) is not always available or I don't want to risk not having it up for someone who really needs it later (Hodir-type fight comes to mind). Nourish is a good filler in this situation. You can assume someone is going to top them off, but I personally don't like to. However, it's rare that I'll use Nourish when someone doesn't already have at least a WG or Rejuv on them.

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Old 04/21/09, 6:09 AM   #1032
Inorrri
Von Kaiser
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Silvermoon (EU)
Here are some thoughts:

Rejuv: good hot. always been, always will be. Nothing to add.

Regrowth: good spell to use when somebody in the raid took some damage and is about to take more.

LB: dodgy spell. I can say for sure I will use it much much less with 3.1.

Nourish: with some basic haste, it will go down to 1-1.1 sec every time it crits with NG. Crits 40-45% of the time (without stacking crit rating), adding a 3k Living Seed. Rejuv+WG is enough to boost it up to 8-9k crit heal with 4pT7 and Nourish glyph. With all these synergies, I really don't understand people that even compare this to GHT.

Healing strategy: main problem of many resto druids is that they see Nourish as a MT healing tool. Well, it's not. Leave MT healing to paladins/disc priests. Resto druids are raid healers and Nourish is yet another raid healing tool, just like hots. On most of the fights I spam around rejuv/wg and SM/Nourish on anyone that takes nuke damage. Well it obviously varies from fight to fight, but in general it worked really well.

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Old 04/21/09, 6:14 AM   #1033
Fallenangel
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Chromaggus (EU)
Originally Posted by Rijndael View Post
You cast nourish when other healers would be forced to rely on flash heal/lesser healing wave. In other words, if the target needs to be topped off NOW. Examples: Mimiron's napalm. Nourish hits as hard as flash heal, and crits a lot, and leaves a living seed. This is useful for continuous burst damage like napalm.
Either rejuv/SM or regrowth are better for handling naplam. If you know the target is going to take more damage, why not cast a heal that leaves a hot?
I don't know if priests use flash heal or not, but it's not really relevant. We have other tools, namely RJ/RG, which are not available to them, so if they have to use FH doesn't mean we need nourish.

Originally Posted by Inorrri View Post
LB: dodgy spell. I can say for sure I will use it much much less with 3.1.

Nourish: with some basic haste, it will go down to 1-1.1 sec every time it crits with NG. Crits 40-45% of the time (without stacking crit rating), adding a 3k Living Seed. Rejuv+WG is enough to boost it up to 8-9k crit heal with 4pT7 and Nourish glyph. With all these synergies, I really don't understand people that even compare this to GHT.
LB still has the same HPM as HL with a better spread so it overheals for less and is castable on a few targets. Getting an NG proc via a crit nourish is nice and all, but it won't help you unless you're spamming it. The 4t7 bonus is fading out and besides it and the glyph are only useful for tank healing.
I can see nourish being potentinally more powerful in a 10m setting where it's easier to ensure everybody is hotted. It just doesn't cut it in 25s, not as a raid heal.

Last edited by Fallenangel : 04/21/09 at 6:20 AM.

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Old 04/21/09, 6:26 AM   #1034
Inorrri
Von Kaiser
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Silvermoon (EU)
Originally Posted by Fallenangel
I can see nourish being potentinally more powerful in a 10m setting where it's easier to ensure everybody is hotted. It just doesn't cut it in 25s, not as a raid heal.
I was talking about 25man. I can keep up to 10 rejuvs and 6 wgs on different people with Nourishes/SMs inbetween.
Worked really well.
But then again that's why I always loved resto druids. There are many healing strategies and all of them can work out for different people.

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Old 04/21/09, 6:45 AM   #1035
BoogieKnight
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Kul Tiras (EU)
In a 25 main raid setting, I'm using rejuv as a primary raid heal, throwing it out at anyone taking damage. WG on nearly every cooldown when the raid is taking damage.

On to the topic of nourish: As has allready been said, I am finding it really useful when someone has to be healed FAST, swiftmend is on cooldown and they are taking heavy damage. For example on Kologarn when a couple of clothies are gripped. A swiftmend on one, and then I'm finding the only thing I have time for bar a NS/HT is nourish spam on those being gripped.

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