Gurth

I don't really see the point of dumping wild growth, even with the cooldown on it.

I see wild growth used on cooldown anyway just cause it's a too powerful spell:

- in a tank and spank fight, it's 1 hot more on the tank. The good thing about WG is that it ticks every second (less chanche of wasted ticks than rej or regrowth) and the cooldown match its duration. That means 100% uptime, roughly 70% of 3xlifbloom stack HPS plus whatever splash damage melee/ot can eventually get. without you even worry about targeting them. And it's really cheap aswell.

- in a splash damage fight it will still be used on cooldown but its efficiency scales dramatically due to the number of targets available. The fact it also auto select the targets in needs of heal around the one you cast it is invaluable in a whole number of situations, especially if you play 25 mans.

Yes it will not be 40-50% of our healing like it is now, but do you really think that you can skip it? I don't think so, the spell mechanics and scaling make it just good to have.

 

Whïspur

[deleted cuz my idea was fail]

 

Anaram

I've a hard time picturing a fight where WG wouldn't be worth more than few extra % of spellpower seeing how at minimum it can be used as an extra singletarget hot.

In a hectic fight it's difficult to always find the time to decide where to use singletarget heals. My personal rule of thumb is to use wild growth when unsure, smart targeting gives it a pretty decent chance to be helpful.

 

Vienuolis

I missed this information in forum, so need to ask you about it.

How i know SP benefit depends from cast time. Also i know what Haste reducing cast time. So, does it mean what haste reducing benefit from SP?

The same with talents, whats reducing cast time.

sry if question is stupid^^

 

malthrin

@Whispur:

This bears repeating. No, +120 spellpower is not worth losing 20% haste on hots and Wild Growth.

 

• uliko

No, haste or cast time reduction talents does not reduce spell coefficients.

Why hit food is bad
"You have to spend 10 seconds to apply it, you have to fish it and you cant use the feast."

 

Ynox

Also you loose 8% from GotEM which is a 0.12 Sec cut from the Global CD, which is worth more than 8% Haste

As you see in this post with Hastecalculation for different situation and this post about how GotEM is applied

so if you have a 5 GotEM+ Celestial Focus + Moonkin/Retriaura + Wrath of Air totem you need at least 118 Haste Rating for a 1 Sec GCD
if you have a 5 GotEM + Moonkin/Retriaura + Wrath of Air totem you need 220 Haste Rating to hit a 1 Sec GCD.
if you miss 2 Points of GotEM and WG for Lunar Guidance you need with same buffs 341 Haste for a 1 Sec GCD.

so if you have no CF but 5 GotEM you need 7,43% less haste than if you only get 3 Points in GotEM but have CF. Not 5% like stated above. Haste calculation is not 8%-3%=5% ! CF is worth more than 98.37 Haste Rating (3% Haste equivalent) but 1 Point in GotEM is even worth more than 6% Gear Haste, but only for those spells.

 

• Playered

New/interesting post by GC (here)

Main points:
- Replenish is known to be a poor talent.
- Living Seed is not considered that bad.
- Honestly, there is a technical limitation that prevents hots (and dots) from being able to crit. We are removing that limitation though, so who knows.
- Haste and armor pen are things we put on lower level gear to make it lower level gear. Higher level gear will be more suitablly optimized.

The third point is the most interesting as this will (finally) give us the possibility of having a means of crit rating being non-shit on our gear. If this did happen though I assume the base would be nerfed slightly due to the general increase and additional scaling we would end up with.

Follwup response which seemed to agree with my assumption.

 

Septus

I don't know why the affliction lock and shadow priest work around wouldn't work for HoTs.

 

Raikagi

If it came down to that I'd prefer the Shadow Priest solution added to Tree of Life rather than the Pandemic solution. Allowing HoTs to 'crit' for extra healing adds a random element to spells that really isn't needed, and thinking back to the times having a HoT crit would save someone it's basically...Never. Having a flat % of healing added to all ticks would be very nice though, and make crit just as useful.

 

Ynox

Totally aggree with that because the Crits would often be at the wrong time, Resto Druid is about constancy, your hots should give the other healers time to react, if there is something like this. A buffer of Hots which can or cant crit is worthless because you get more worst case scenarios.

I think that the crit % will somehow work into the SP to Heal calculation will make the gear choices more exciting.

Now RJ Ticks are 0.647* SP+ Base Tick

Could be a factor like RJ Tick = 0.55 SP*(1+ Critchance)+Base Tick (at around 17% crit its the same like it is now, the same as Shadow Priests if I'm not totally wrong)

or just a SP converter RJ Tick = 0.6*(SP+Critrating/2) or something like that.

All numbers how it could be are just out of the blue, how it could be implented to work with the constancy of your hots.

 

Anaram

Regarding GCs post: Interestingly enough the original poster refers to haste & crit while GC then responds on haste & penetration.

Anyway, I'm not sure this applies to resto druids in any real fashion. What are they going to replace crit or haste with on higher level gear? Hit? Spell penetration? Expertise? Resilience? Defence? Dodge? Parry? Armor penetration? Block rating? Block value? Strength? Agility? Spell resistances? Bonus armor?

They could add more sockets, that's about it. We are already getting pretty much every stat that is useful to us. They could start itemizing less stats on gear when we got up tiers instead of more and the gear would get better. Pretty much every other spec will at the same time be getting more stats on gear, though, so I'm doubting this would actually happen.

Mark my words though, this is what's going to happen: we'll get some form of crit scaling on hots. Blizzard might make some time debating this (and then some more time rationalizing why it isn't needed) but they'll eventually do it. They did it with pretty much everyone who wasn't getting 100% crit damage modifier (except pure arcane mages who "only" get 75%) and they did it with both the dot heavy specs in game.

 

Blackpatch

Deleted.

CONSERVE YOUR RAGE AND LUST

 

Bull@ER

Worse still, the seed is only 30% of the amount healed. We're not paladins. We don't do 20k heals (at least I haven't). The odds of having a living seed proc and be fully effective healing are pretty small and even if it were to happen, the heal would be pretty small, too. Hardly worth 3 deep resto points.

Now if Living Seed caused crit overheals to increase the target's maximum health by the amount of the overheal for 15 seconds...that'd be something. (the 'something' might be 'OP')

 

CowTree

I tend to agree and disagree with that. While I love the idea of a PWS-like mechanic, my main problem with Living Seed is the cost. I think the better solution to Living Seed would be to reduce it to a 1 point talent and buff/move some other things around in the tree. An example would be switch it with living touch & add nourish to living touch. That would also kick the problem the developers have with the utility of Nourish.

 

Fallenangel

Living seed heals after the next hit, this was changed a while back.
Under optimal conditions, living seed increases the direct-heal portion of regrowth by 22%, assuming a modest crit rate of 65%. Improved regrowth improves it by 41% for 5 talent points.
It's not so bad. Take it.

 

CowTree

Deleted that...Thanks, I completed misinterpreted what you were saying.

 

Fallenangel

Assuming base 15% critrate on regrowth and living seed, an average regrowth will heal for 0.85x + 0.15*1.5*1.3x = 1.1425x.
Add imp regrowth and it changes to 0.35x + 0.65*1.5*1.3x = 1.6175x, or 41.5% increase.
The figure without living seed is 0.35x + 0.65*1.5x = 1.325x, which gives seed the 22% increase.

 

Poly

I think the bigger problem with Living Seed is that the value of the seed is 30% of the amount of healing that was actually done. So if by the time you get your regrowth off the target gets topped off, your living seed will have a strength of 0 (worst case). The times Living Seed would seem to be best is on a tank you know will get hit again soon (proccing the seed), but tanks are also the target most likely to get topped off by another healer before your regrowth completes casting. They really need to make the strength of the seed equal to 30% of the amount that would have been healed for the talent to have any real value. That being said, I still took the talent for lack of better things to take...

 

Akomos

When do you really want Seed to work for you other than in a crazy high-throughput situation on a spiked tank, though? I mean, yeah, it'd be great if it were a flat +critheal increase, but in practice I find that it doesn't make too terribly much difference. Crit Regrowths are already almost always overheal for raidhealing anyway in my experience.

I dunno. I guess I just don't see a huge issue with it. IMO giving Nourish a bump (3.0.8 will certainly help but I dearly hope they're not done with the spell) and making Replenish something more than a place to dump those 3 otherwise-useless points are massively, massively more important IMO.

 

surfmonk

Seems like it's worth looking at actual use rather than how it 'feels' or 'seems' or theory. Healing heroics, I'm seeing Living Seed doing 3-7% of heals. IMO that's worth the 3 talent points, esp. since there's nothing else I'd use them on.

 

trismegistus

An interesting discussion developed last night in raid between me and a resto from another guild.

I prefer to use the BC style healing with some changes:

Lifebloom on tank(s) + Rejuvenation and Regrowth if it's a single tank. I use Nourish to heal spikes if all three hots are up and Swiftmend is on cd. If there is any melee damage taken, I immediately hit Wild Growth. As far as stats go, I tend to balance things but always gemming for spell power and using Int (orange) and Spi (purple) when the socket bonus is worth or if I know I will replace the gear very soon.

His healing style appeared to be more of this:

Stack as much haste as possible. Use Regrowth on many targets that could possibly take damage for later Swiftmend usage. Use Rejuv occaisonally and LB on only one tank.

At one point I noticed Regrowth on about 15 different targets in the raid. to be fair, I didn't ask him the glyphs he has and I for one, use Innervate instead of Regrowth.

I was quite shocked and surprised by this healing strategy. He remarked to em that Regrowth is his favorite heal and our only other good heal is talented, glyphed HT. Obviously since I am only presenting what I remember of the conversation, I may have inadvertently left out pertinent information and I apologize in advance for that.

My question is: Is this a popular style or is it strange to others as well? I felt like he was trying to make the resto druid into a different healing class instead of promoting the strengths.

---

Another question, if you have three resto druids in a raid vs. Patchwerk 25man, is the best strat to roll all three hots on all three tank targets? If there is a different strat, please explain it.

 

Rijndael

I think it's still early enough in the expansion that there is some room for argument about healing strategies (and healing is a 'black art' after all, not a science like dps). That said, it's hard to envision any strategy that doesn't roll lifeblooms on the tanks as good. It's simple to see why -- having almost an equivalent of HPS of flash of light constantly on the tank at the cost one global cooldown and a little mana every 9 seconds or so is just too good to pass up in the vast majority of fights. Even in fights like Sapphiron where druids mostly end up casting Rejuvenation and Wild Growth on the raid, it's still generally a good idea to lifebloom the tank.

Similarly, any strategy that spams a single spell is probably not very good. We have a lot of spells, and if someone says they haven't found a use for them, well they probably haven't thought about it very hard. Even paladins have spell decisions now.

Personally, if I have no specific healing assignment, I am 'tank centric,' in that I roll full hots on however many tanks there are, and spend the remaining cooldowns on raid healing. I see druids who mostly spam wild growth, which won't stay effective for long. Once wild growth is on cooldown, raid healing decisions will presumably be split between nourish (if urgent heal is needed, e.g. ice tomb), rejuvenation (for predictable damage, e.g. sapphiron), or regrowth (if damage is high but not super urgent and you expect more damage later). I look at healing as anticipating the 'shape of the damage' and 'playing tetris' with the spells you have available to best 'fit those shapes,' if that makes any sense.

For your Patchwerk question, it depends on what other healers you have. Druids make fine single tank healers -- they can have full hots and spam regrowth/healing touch to keep up a hateful tank. However, in our raid we have enough single target tank healers where I can afford to have full hots on all three tanks. I think that's a better use of a druid on that fight, anyways.

 

Rensaelys

I have to admit, the idea of just spamming regrowth is alien to me and hardly seems effective at all. I agree with Rijndael that there isn't a reason to really do that with all of the options open to us. We are not Paladins, and I really feel that a Druid who isn't taking full advantage of his class is not doing it right. I am very much a HoT roller, but I am also able to fill multiple, just about any, rolls whenever necessary. What I do on a boss fight changes with each boss that we do. Originally, when my guild first took a shot at Patchwerk, we ended up killing him with me rolling full HoTs (minus WG to avoid healing the melee) and casting Nourish (for the cast time) on the main tank. With the exception of a resto shammy who occasionally bounced CH off of him, I was his only healer.

This has changed some as my guild geared, and now I find myself usually rolling HoTs on the MT and the hateful tank(s) at the same time. During Sapphiron, I will keep HoTs on the tank and/or raid heal, depending on what is needed and what composition our raid is that night. On Sartharion with three drakes up, I am responsible for healing the warrior tank who tanks all of the drakes. By myself. I do this by rolling full HoTs (plus WG, which is excellent as a spare HoT and for dropping some heal on the melee in range) and casting Regrowth or Nourish, whichever is more necessary, and using Swiftmend if I need a burst heal that isn't cast. I've also been charged with raid healing most of Naxx's bosses at times and heal both tanks and DPS during trash.

I'm explaining all of this because I truly feel that as it stands, the Druid class is one of the most versatile healers in the game right now. We can do just about anything if we're competent. I also feel that if you're just spamming Regrowth or Healing Touch, you are not maximizing your potential as a Druid. Druids are not one-button wonders. If you want that, you should probably start thinking about playing a Paladin (I realize they have more than one button, but they are much more limited than we, or really any other healer, are).

 

Malusdei

I totally agree, just spamming any one spell as a druid seems like a complete waste of our awesome utility. Being so versatile is what makes druid healing so fun in wrath imo. I am still in the mindset of rolling hots from BC and prefer hot healing to direct healing but each kind has its place depending on the raid situation. I can't think of a reason to just focus on one spell like a pally might. Most of the time in my raids we have enough other single target healers that keeping up hots on all the tanks is the way to go, maybe with a little spot healing here and there.