Negating the energy or runic power gain aside because god knows they have the ability to do dps regardless if theres even a druid there or not, you mean to tell me you can have a rejuv up on EVERY single caster and guarentee that it will proc.
Also again aside from this me giving casters 1-6 hell even 10 percent mana over the course of a fight does not even remotely come close to the scenario of a healer running out of mana
every person in a raid does what they can to increase their own dps so they can contribute as a whole and put out respectable numbers I would rather conserve my own mana than give a little boost to others.
also a permant decrease in cost > the RNG to get a little back
Negating the energy or runic power gain aside because god knows they have the ability to do dps regardless if theres even a druid there or not, you mean to tell me you can have a rejuv up on EVERY single caster and guarentee that it will proc.
Also again aside from this me giving casters 1-6 hell even 10 percent mana over the course of a fight does not even remotely come close to the scenario of a healer running out of mana
every person in a raid does what they can to increase their own dps so they can contribute as a whole and put out respectable numbers I would rather conserve my own mana than give a little boost to others.
also a permant decrease in cost > the RNG to get a little back
Here's what was generally decieded on the value of Revitalize. Most druids do (or did) most of their healing with Wild Growth and Rejuvenation. In most hardmodes (which was the content at the time) druids were called to blanket the raid with Rejuv and Wild Growth. When healing hardmode Steelbreaker or XT, its fairly common to have a resto druid or two blanketing the entire raid with both of these spells. If I can provide a passive bonus to the raid (a couple thousand mana per caster, extra Runic Power, Rage, Energy) then it is worthwhile. Most good DPS wont let themselves get capped on their resource. As someone who plays a feral offspec, and a Frost DK alt, i know that If I cap on Runic Power or Energy, I am doing something wrong. Any extra energy gets turned into pure DPS. While that 1-2 extra Frost strikes or rakes might not be a raid breaker, they add up. 2 extra high damage attacks (at least) for 10 different DPS...It adds up.
Theres no way you can argue that first off i said take 1-2 points im not saying the whole thing so in actuallity you just reduce the chance to proc and by a very small amount.
Second i know we have a thread around here with the actual math but the gaines from rune power and energy from revitalize over a 5 minutes fight was caculated to 50- 60 energy per minute. Thats one combo and the rune value was something like 50 which is 1 stike worthy. this is not only to mention that we are messing with a science of energy /rune power return and a perfectly planned rotation may go to waste.
Aye, you "just" reduce the chance to proc, but every point adds (in effect) exactly the same amount of mana. Erdluf's maths demonstrate quite clearly that one point in Revitalize gives each rejuv tick similar mana to one point in TS per Nourish cast. Unless you're casting Nourish more often than your Rejuvenation is ticking, it's never going to give more raid-wide mana. If you're running OOM while using Nourish a huge amount and while your other healers have ample mana, it might help - but you've got deeper issues than your personal mana pool there.
When we take into account the energy, rage and Runic Power gains, Revitalize outperforms TS even further. Rolling Rejuv on a DK or two before the pull really shouldn't be hurting your mana pool at all, and it allows them to throw one or two Deathcoils out before they reach melee. Once they're in there and you're healing as usual, it continues to give them extra Deathcoils in the RP dump phase of their rotation. In the case of an Obliterate Unholy DK, this will add a decent chunk of damage in when they're otherwise doing very little or nothing. To be frank, I don't see the value of TS being even comparable to Revitalize. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'd love to see something that'll improve my playstyle.
It's not even close. If you're haste-capped and pounding out some Rejuvx5-WG spam, you could be throwing 90-100 Revit procs on the raid per minute. Imagining they're all for mana, that's around 7.5 procs every 5 seconds--if your average raid member (lowballing it) has 20k mana, you're generating 1500 MP5. Your Wild Growth creates more mana than it costs. Now remember that some of those ticks are for things besides mana, which is typically even better, because they all add DPS. It's an extremely strong talent.
For comparison, even throwing pretty heavy Nourish spam, Tranquil Spirit is going to give you like 40 MP5 per point.
It's not even close. If you're haste-capped and pounding out some Rejuvx5-WG spam, you could be throwing 90-100 Revit procs on the raid per minute. Imagining they're all for mana, that's around 7.5 procs every 5 seconds--if your average raid member (lowballing it) has 20k mana, you're generating 1500 MP5. Your Wild Growth creates more mana than it costs. Now remember that some of those ticks are for things besides mana, which is typically even better, because they all add DPS. It's an extremely strong talent.
For comparison, even throwing pretty heavy Nourish spam, Tranquil Spirit is going to give you like 40 MP5 per point.
These may seem like extraordinary numbers, but just thinking over the math in my head, I think his numbers are somewhat conservative. Its not unimaginable to have more like 8-9 procs every 5 seconds in some encounters. Raid members now average more like 25k mana pools with raid buffs. So 9 procs per 5 seconds / 5 = 1.8. 1.8 procs per second. 1.8 procs * 60 seconds = 108 procs per minute. 108 procs * 250 mana (1% of the 25k mana pool) = 27000 mana generated per minute. 27000 / 12 = 2250 MP5 to the raid PER DRUID in an ideal situation.
Or lets say its non-casters and its even better. A few procs produces extra attack. Figuring again nearly 2 procs per second, the druid is basically throwing out the potential to do an extra spammable attack every 2-3 seconds. That's a crapload of DPS that's just a byproduct of healing.
Even on a slow fight where you only have a few rejuvs going on at once and WG happening every 15 seconds or so its still gotta be AT LEAST 500 MP5 (or whatever contribution that comes out to for non-casters). If you don't believe the theorycrafting, run Recount, and then see how much mana, runic power, energy, and rage everyone is getting. Or wait until the end of the raid and check out a total contribution. I know I've seen raids where I ALONE gained 80k mana over the course of the night (or something like 50 MP5 factoring downtime) even being the only druid with the talent.
So yeah...that's probably better than a minor gain in efficiency to a moderately used heal.
These may seem like extraordinary numbers, but just thinking over the math in my head, I think his numbers are somewhat conservative. Its not unimaginable to have more like 8-9 procs every 5 seconds in some encounters. Raid members now average more like 25k mana pools with raid buffs. So 9 procs per 5 seconds / 5 = 1.8. 1.8 procs per second. 1.8 procs * 60 seconds = 108 procs per minute. 108 procs * 250 mana (1% of the 25k mana pool) = 27000 mana generated per minute. 27000 / 12 = 2250 MP5 to the raid PER DRUID in an ideal situation.
Or lets say its non-casters and its even better. A few procs produces extra attack. Figuring again nearly 2 procs per second, the druid is basically throwing out the potential to do an extra spammable attack every 2-3 seconds. That's a crapload of DPS that's just a byproduct of healing.
Even on a slow fight where you only have a few rejuvs going on at once and WG happening every 15 seconds or so its still gotta be AT LEAST 500 MP5 (or whatever contribution that comes out to for non-casters). If you don't believe the theorycrafting, run Recount, and then see how much mana, runic power, energy, and rage everyone is getting. Or wait until the end of the raid and check out a total contribution. I know I've seen raids where I ALONE gained 80k mana over the course of the night (or something like 50 MP5 factoring downtime) even being the only druid with the talent.
So yeah...that's probably better than a minor gain in efficiency to a moderately used heal.
How are you getting 8-9 procs per 5? Assuming full rejuv coverage, you have 6 ticking every second, or 4.5 procs on average. Was the proc rate for WG determined? From what I remember the proc rate was lowered some time after WG was added to the talent.
Also keep in mind that some mana procs are pretty much wasted. Most DPS casters have no mana issues, not to mention the mana melee - rets and enhance shamans, and these classes sport a much lower mana pool anyway.
Your also making a hypothetical situation where every druid has 25 rejuvs going. All hots assuming haste cap have a 1 sec GCD that coupled latency and other factors means you at the most will have 15-17 effective rejuvs
2 of these and probly 2 targets of WG are going to be on most likely rage capped tanks plus the offchance you hit somebody like say a ret pally/shaman or hell anyother mana bar class that really doesnt have mana problems these effects are all wasted.
Also this is a 15% chance capped out you arent even guarenteed that it will even proc, while that is a weak point becauase the RNG of that happening is bullshit its just not that high of a chance. Also there was never a point that said it shouldnt be used just that a 5% chance vs 2 points and a 15% is just not that compelling to put the points in. It will proc you do have the talent it just wont proc as much and thats with an already low proc rate so theres nothing really missed.
Every point in revitalize is worth exactly the same amount. Every point means each rejuvenation will restore, on average, 0.3% mana on every mana user that it is cast on. That means that at three points you'll restore 0.9%/cast, or three times as much if that wasn't obvious. So if you value one point in it over one point in TS then you also value two, and three points over additional points in TS as well.
Even if you don't just blindly spam the raid with RJx5/WG you can still easily keep rejuvenation up on people that do need the mana like say a paladin. A 3/3 revitalized rejuvenation is almost as strong as improved BoW. Keep in mind that improved BoW provides 18.2 mp5 for two talent points compared to revitalize which has the potential to be upwards of 100 mp5 for just a global cooldown every 18 seconds and one extra talent point.
For some non-mana example, take a rogue FoKing on Anub. He's hitting 5 targets and averages 2454 per MH hit and 1354 per OH hit. That's 19040 per FoK. Keep rejuvenation on him and he'll get 50 energy every 3/0.15 * 50/8=125 seconds. 19040/125=152 DPS. So just by spending three points in revitalize and keeping rejuvenation up on say four rogues you increase raid DPS by 600. Obviously this isn't how it works out in reality since it would heal the rogues too much in phase 3 and phase 1 doesn't last 125 seconds but there are more places to FoK.
Numbers taken from some recent parse of ours
Why hit food is bad
"You have to spend 10 seconds to apply it, you have to fish it and you cant use the feast."
Aye, I don't even know why we are posting hypothetical situations. It's pretty easy to look at a parse and see the actual effects of Revitalize on a raid and they are both substantial and valuable.
Most of the mana granted to other mana users is not needed most of the time, as nearly all boss encounters aren't long enough for say, a mage, to go out of mana. Replenishment and other raid buffs provide more than enough mana returns, along with talents, and other spells they already have, such as a warlocks' lifetap (which grants spell power when glyphed). bonus runic power will mostly go to waste, as a RP dump is only used after a chain of strikes which put them on nearly maxxed RP anyway. rage and energy bonuses will be so tiny compared to talents and on hit procs that it'll barely be noticeable. All and all it's a wasted talent.
Most of the mana granted to other mana users is not needed most of the time, as nearly all boss encounters aren't long enough for say, a mage, to go out of mana. Replenishment and other raid buffs provide more than enough mana returns, along with talents, and other spells they already have, such as a warlocks' lifetap (which grants spell power when glyphed). bonus runic power will mostly go to waste, as a RP dump is only used after a chain of strikes which put them on nearly maxxed RP anyway. rage and energy bonuses will be so tiny compared to talents and on hit procs that it'll barely be noticeable. All and all it's a wasted talent.
On the most demanding of fights, this is an incorrect assessment. Even if I argue the most controversial portion of Revitalize (i.e. the mana return), it shows definite value. I am seeing anywhere from ~75mp5 to ~150mp5 on the most demanding fights to our highest mana users. This is not insignificant. This is the type of impact that allows them to drop a regen trinket in favor of a throughput trinket or the like. This is also the type of impact that prevents them from having to Divine Plea or Evocate, etc. I know for a fact it's a difference-maker in allowing me to keep two throughput trinkets and a throughput Idol equipped even on XT or IC Hard Mode. Revitalize ups raid-wide DPS and HPS period. This is a good thing. In a min-max world, pushing progression content, seconds and fractions of seconds matter.
Also, it's not like you are going to put those 3 points to some magnificent effect somewhere else in the tree so the risk / reward quotient is pretty strong in favor of these points.
Most of the mana granted to other mana users is not needed most of the time, as nearly all boss encounters aren't long enough for say, a mage, to go out of mana. Replenishment and other raid buffs provide more than enough mana returns, along with talents, and other spells they already have, such as a warlocks' lifetap (which grants spell power when glyphed). bonus runic power will mostly go to waste, as a RP dump is only used after a chain of strikes which put them on nearly maxxed RP anyway. rage and energy bonuses will be so tiny compared to talents and on hit procs that it'll barely be noticeable. All and all it's a wasted talent.
Congratulations, you have successfully refuted all of the math in previous posts with your astute observations and purely anecdotal comparisons. Every resto druid can now respec to drop the talent, Thank you!
On a more serious note, we stoped using WWS and our WoL is private, so instead of telling you numbers and having them questions I will link an old WWS.
Aye, I don't even know why we are posting hypothetical situations. It's pretty easy to look at a parse and see the actual effects of Revitalize on a raid and they are both substantial and valuable.
Our 2 Restoration Druids assignments are to Wild Growth the melee, and blanket the raid with Rejuv (obviously a little different depending on the damage. So in our raid comp, Revitalize is a significant boost in damage. Even in any other raid comp, I couldn't imagine not picking up a full 3/3 talent.
Back to what this thread should really be about. My guild has made it up to Twins. And as I thought, it IS a Steelbreaker all over again, this time with fun stuff to do, like collect orbs and click portals. My guild has only 2 attempts on them however; both kinda so so. Using like 35 attempts on Faction Champions is for the lose! I have estimated it to be about a 5 minute fight, with my guilds DPS. Regen did not seem to be MUCH of an issue, obviously playing it smart. Full SP trinkets are recommended over [Spark of Hope] and [Idol of Awakening] from my experience so far. This is just what I've concluded so far, and I am also curious as to what other druids/raids are doing for this encounter.
I have been running resto for WotLK (feral in BC) and have been reading posts to make sure I understand various aspects of resto.
1) I know spirit is good, but wonder if MP5 is better for combat mana regen. I have a good amount of spirit and a smaller amount of MP5, should I make more of an effort to increase my MP5? I am trying to maximize my HB and with raid buffs can get to 3k, but at a cost of having to know when to change trinkets before fight to ensure I don't go oom because of my lower MP5.
2) I have the 4 set of T8.5 and can't see to give up that 4 set bonus till I get 4 set of 9.5. Any other gear out there that will compensate for the loss of that 4 set T8.5 bonus?
I am the main raid healer in my guild, and therefore this post pertains more to raid healers. With the 4 set bonus from t8 we get an instant heal on our rejuv, which is a godsend to raid healing resto druids, and consequently revitalize was seeing alot of procs. Now however with both of the t9 bonuses being based on crit it is my professional opinion (have been resto druid since vanilla and have seen many different healing styles come and go) that it would be more beneficiary to take points out of revitalize, or living seed (if your raid members need more dps) and put it into celestial focus in the balance tree. Doing so would lower our haste soft cap to 253, allowing us to stack more crit/int, giving more use out of our set bonus. Being a healer of any class your main concern is to maximize your healing output, not help the dps because you have a talent that can do it.
You will be hard-pressed to get the 4t9 bonus and still not be haste capped. In my planned gear setup I have about 450 haste and that's with using the 245 T9 and using crit items where possible.
I am the main raid healer in my guild, and therefore this post pertains more to raid healers. With the 4 set bonus from t8 we get an instant heal on our rejuv, which is a godsend to raid healing resto druids, and consequently revitalize was seeing alot of procs. Now however with both of the t9 bonuses being based on crit it is my professional opinion (have been resto druid since vanilla and have seen many different healing styles come and go) that it would be more beneficiary to take points out of revitalize, or living seed (if your raid members need more dps) and put it into celestial focus in the balance tree. Doing so would lower our haste soft cap to 253, allowing us to stack more crit/int, giving more use out of our set bonus. Being a healer of any class your main concern is to maximize your healing output, not help the dps because you have a talent that can do it.
Without doing the exact math on this, I can say I have a big problem with it. You want to spend all those points just to get 3% haste? Points you could take out of NG or ET? You want to take points of a crit-based talent like Seed to get haste?
You suggestions are counter-intuitive at best. Let's not forget a little word called synergy.
Full 258 t9 gives only 170 haste rating (no including sockets) now granted are tons of options for your other gear slots, but the way blizz does things is 90% of the time for every non-tier gear slot there are multiple choices with the same or very similar base stats (stam, int and spr) and then either haste or crit. Granted you should maximize your spec for your current gear, I am still using revitalize and no celestial focus as I am still missing my t9 bonus. However I will change once I get it. The reason I brought up the fact about the 2 similar pieces is because you can, like Fallenangel stated reach the haste cap very easily with gear, however that leaves you with less crit than if you went for CF and picked up crit gear. But in the end it is very much personal choice, if you feel your dps or fellow healers need the boost from revitalize by all means use it, if they don't though then definitely pick up CF and more crit. You're job as a healer is too keep your fellow raiders alive, and maximizing your healing ability is what you need to do to achieve that.
Edit: And too Grizabella, I stated to take it out of revitalize, as that is what we are talking about at the moment in the thread. If you had read what I stated completely you would have noticed that I said take points out of seed if your raid dps or fellow healers really need the boost from revitalize.
Last edited by Dasr : 09/15/09 at 5:44 PM.
Reason: Responding to an above post
Edit: And too Grizabella, I stated to take it out of revitalize, as that is what we are talking about at the moment in the thread. If you had read what I stated completely you would have noticed that I said take points out of seed if your raid dps or fellow healers really need the boost from revitalize.
That's just the thing, I would not consider taking points out of Revitalize.
I am skeptical that Blizz would have us suddenly be going all out for crit in our gear. Stick to your haste cap, get the most bang out of each of your talent points. I don't see crit overvaluing spellpower anytime soon, so what's with the mad rush to break 30% crit or drop unique talents like Revitalize?
You mention keeping people alive being a priority and maximizing, yet you are going to drop solid steady stats for RNG-based ones?
That's just the thing, I would not consider taking points out of Revitalize.
I am skeptical that Blizz would have us suddenly be going all out for crit in our gear. Stick to your haste cap, get the most bang out of each of your talent points. I don't see crit overvaluing spellpower anytime soon, so what's with the mad rush to break 30% crit or drop unique talents like Revitalize?
You mention keeping people alive being a priority and maximizing, yet you are going to drop solid steady stats for RNG-based ones?
To this and the above post:
1. Make a list of 245/258 gear and you will be above the haste cap without CF = 359. Hence getting CF is no good, particularly since Natural Perfection seems a lot more interesting now.
2. On the other hand, all gear should be dedicated to having crit since it's that or haste. Get it through your heads, people. You're not trading SP for crit. It's either haste which is pretty meh past the soft cap or crit which affects 50% of your heals. Which is it gonna be?
Some slots don't have a good crit item - for instance legs have no 258 with crit and spirit. and the crit/haste ones drop from Anub. The same goes for the shoulders slot. So, you will be using some haste gear if you're going for maximum SP, and that will put you over the cap.
To this and the above post:
1. Make a list of 245/258 gear and you will be above the haste cap without CF = 359. Hence getting CF is no good, particularly since Natural Perfection seems a lot more interesting now.
2. On the other hand, all gear should be dedicated to having crit since it's that or haste. Get it through your heads, people. You're not trading SP for crit. It's either haste which is pretty meh past the soft cap or crit which affects 50% of your heals. Which is it gonna be?
Some slots don't have a good crit item - for instance legs have no 258 with crit and spirit. and the crit/haste ones drop from Anub. The same goes for the shoulders slot. So, you will be using some haste gear if you're going for maximum SP, and that will put you over the cap.
So it sounds like nothing is changing about our gear priorities, right?
The only real changes are to if you want more haste past the soft cap or more crit, I have no idea where you are getting this idea that I said to drop sp or healing talents for CF, I specifically said to drop revitalize (in case your are incapable of reading correctly Grizabella, which you have already proven once) all this talent does if give the dps a LITTLE boost, its not enough that the talent should be considered mandatory.
Now on to more talk about stacking crit, everyone here knows or should know that rejuv and wg are our top heals in most scenarios (raid healing being a big one). Now the t9 4 set gives our rejuv ticks a chance to crit, which is a very big change, especially if your blanketing the raid with rejuv, that is why i suggest getting a lot more crit than we normally would need. Another thing is the 2 set bonus to nourish which already has a lot of crit. Glyphed nourish with the set bonus and crit will be your best friend for getting up that dps that just took a spike of damage (yes SW is a million times better, but there is that CD to take into account). These set bonuses are really a raid healers dream, yes the instant heal from rejuv was nice, but now a druid that is blanketing the raid with rejuv gets the ability to almost guarantee a nourish crit if someone needs it, especially with the more crit you have, that is why crit is looking to be more important in the future
09/14/09, 4:47 PM
