It does not

I have a problem about flask/foodbuff usage. On 10man toc hardmodes and in the progression runs we have now on beasts 25 I was forced to use mp5 flask in combination with spirit buff. I have mana problems on this fights where I need to do alot of nourish/regrowh (comparing to the rejuv/wg spam with duck trinket back in ulduar). For now I haven't changed the way I gem my gear (sp / other gems just if set bonus require). I run on 413mp5 unbuffed (740 raidbuffed) and I am forced almost everytime at the end of p2 (on toc25 hard) to ask for an extra innervate. As well, on Anub arak (10man/hard) I always go in p3 at the edge with mana . Should I still use the duck or I need to drop a bit the non stop casts ? Cause I feel that now the OH I generetae is more in vain that it was in ulduar, the healing output droped in comparation to my fellow healers and mana usage is terrible.
Anyway, this crit thing looks like a good idea, but I dont see it to reliable. The gear in toc has alot of haste, with balanced crit. I can't see how to boost the crit that good, without breaking tier / going under haste cap. I am more for the getting more haste to get nourish to 1sec with ng.

We have cleared NRB 10 Heroic (it's not quite as bad on mana in 10s though) and are still progression pulling NRB Heroic on 25s (into phase 3 now but with too many DPS doing stupid things and dying in phase 2 to finish). Between our 10s success and those progression pulls in 25s, I have observed some things amongst our druids that may be useful anecdotally to you. In phase 1, we have 2 Paladins and a Disc Priest primary tank healing and a 3-tank switch strategy. We also had 3 druid healers on raid. Any rate, in phase 1, all of us were predominantly on tanks with raid healers doing some spot to the raid (WG on melee after stomp, RJ on folks with snobolds or fire, etc.). My strategy on Phase 1 is RG, LBx3, RJ on the active tank. I also setup RG, RJ, LBx1 on incoming tank right before switch and then add in 2 more LBs as Gormok gets on him. Refresh RG and RJ on tanks that still have stacks and maybe single-Nourish them if I need to catch them up. I'll also throw in a Nourish or a Swiftmend in on raid (someone who stood in fire too long) or very occasionally on tanks if a primary healer is snobold stunned and it is necessary to catch up.

On our initial attempts, another druid member with much higher haste, spec'd for CF, etc. took more of a hot plus Nourish spam strategy on tanks. His Nourish is pretty much ~1 sec spam. By the end of phase 1, there were cases where, even self-innervating, he was in a bad, bad way by the beginning of phase 2. But, although he was expending more mana, my effective throughput on the tanks was significantly higher. Also, while I stressed mana a bit, I was very well positioned to make it through phase 2 and phase 3 (assuming use of my own Innervates only). This is with Flaring Growth and hybrid throughput/regen trinks equipped and using Frost Wyrm/Fish Feast combo for consumable buffs. I definitely Innervate early (around 65% mana on first use), and then on every 3 min cooldown thereafter on this fight but it is workable.

I really think the best strategy when we are riding underneath a primary tank heal should continue to look like what I have described (i.e. RJ, LBx3, RG, WG that hits melee and perhaps tanks, Swiftmend or Nature's Swiftness if the tank hits a huge spike, and Nourish only as an occasional fill if absolutely required but certainly not spammed). Phase 1 definitely has some consistent spikes and tank insta-gibs even in best case scenarios and I know that has caused some folks to hit the panic button and start spamming cast time spells. However, even in this extreme situation, general best-practice theory of druid-assist tank healing is still relevant and applicable -- we are simply trying to even out the damage profile and buy the primary healer time to finish a cast. We need to resist the urge to act like a primary healer by spamming direct heal spells but instead leverage heal-team synergies and play a complementary not competitive role. Not only is this better for our mana, it provides better effective healing.

EDIT: Most of what I talked about was in reference to 25s Heroic, but as you mention 10s Heroic as well, I'll note that the strategy we successfully employed there is to two-heal NRB using a Paladin primary tank healing with me on complementary tank and raid heals. It's a two-tank rotation but I use exactly the same RG, LBx3, RJ strategy I mentioned above and we've 1-shot it both weeks we've attempted without any real tank danger and even more mana to spare as I'm only rotating on 2 instead of 3 tanks.

Until phase 3, I took it upon myself to fully hot the tanks, with WG where needed. My guild would let the warrior tank first, with a Soul stone, till he died or reached 5 stacks. Hand of Protection afterwords of course. With no holy paladin, the lack of Beacon was noticeable.


This should be kept in mind. Phase 1 and 2 mana are harsh. During transition, let your OO5SR work. Let the shamans or paladin top off the raid. Phase 3 is easy on mana. WG/Rejuve blanket prior to the stomp/charge, which really isn't even needed. Healing p3 is basically a joke (assuming you have a prot paladin). I kept tank hots up the entire time, but again only to buffer the Ferocious butt.

This is a ridiculous statement. Raid DPS is everyone's concern.

When you gain empowered light or empowered darkness from getting 100 stacks of the buff you gain 20% mana so regen really isn't an issue at all since you should get it at least once or twice a fight. So full throughput is better on twins.

Also on the topic of revitalize while making sure to keep a rejuv on myself at all times since i was a ball grabber revitalize gave me almost as much mana as replenishment
Mana gain on twin valks kill

With 2 restos in the raid speced 3/3 revitalize the mana gain from it was great. 83188 mana total not counting pets
Revitalize Mana gain

With that type of philosophy, why should a tank ever use a cooldown? Their job is to store damage for the healers to heal and keep threat above the dps. They shouldn't try to help out others jobs in any way whatsoever correct? Maybe a DK shouldn't spec into additional cooldowns so he can focus more on threat?

I didn't say you shouldn't try and help out other jobs, I said you shouldn't have to. People need to stop putting words into other peoples mouths and read what the poster actually said.

If a Paladin was giving up healing tanks in order to do some minor DPS boosting on melee then you would have a point but pretty much nothing is "sacrificed" for taking Revitalize and casting RJ/WG while raiding and it comes across as you saying that we are (especially as you stated you were the main raid healer?).

Honestly it is getting to the point where I'm sure a lot of people want to just scream "take Revitalize and shut up" because it is one of those things which personally does not do very much but on a raid scale it is a very good indeed ("utility"). You could open the whole can of worms about how giving items/upgrades to DPSers/tanks is more important than healers but really that aspect is depressing enough in the background.

People also need to stop thinking of Ulduar terms with Coliseum gear because outside of Twins we don't really have the same type of fights and much more of the damage is based around tanks and short/slight spike damage on the raid.


This is wrong. The way Coliseum itemization has been done leaves little room for deviation of any kind so that the discussion about trading crit/haste/int is somewhat futile - In previous tiers you had a little bit more of an option. It will roughly boil down to if you want the staff or the MH/OH combo but even then the SP from the MH/OH is superior and outclasses the staff regardless.

This is slightly lucky because if people (could, or had the option to) go about balancing all of their gear around the 4T9 set bonus then as soon as we hit 3.3 you would have issues as the set bonus would be phased out and it is doubtful we will get any talent changes before 4.0 or a replica 4T10 bonus to maintain the small boost crit had.


In the end of the day crit is still significantly inferior to SP, you don't really have much choice in your gear to try boost your crit levels outside of helm/shoulder enchants and we are not focusing on Ulduar so RJ is going to account for less of our healing due to both replacing 4T8 (which changes the spell functionality) and encounter design.

Revitalize is an absolute core talent with the current raid healing style we're pretty much cornered into.

With some very rudimentary napkin math, Revitalize was more than a 400 dps increase from just the DK runic power gains alone in normal raid healing (figures from last Algalon: fight lasts ~5 minutes, 3 DKs, average runic power gain ~200 per DK, average coil hit ~8k). Add to that the other gains and it's pretty clear that it's one of the better three talent points spent. Several hundreds of free raid dps is not slight at all in my book. If you only think about maximizing your healing throughput, you won't be clearing the current content.

I'd actually rather skip points from Living Seed than Revitalize if I absolutely had to pick CF, even with 4t9. Arguably, if you're not doing 24/7 blanketing, 4t9 makes Revitalize even more valuable since it'll become more important to already have the hot on the target when damage is taken with the loss of the instant heal component.


Even with the changes in the shape of incoming damage in Coliseum compared to Ulduar fights, I still find myself throwing lots of hots around during "downtime" in healing. CF would probably be better in Faction Champions since the damage is awfully spiky, but it's hardly a fight that calls for tailored specs.

I found FC to be the hardest fight I have encountered in the AC. I picked up Nature's Grace and Empowered Touch for this fight for a bit more of Regrowth/Nourish Spam. Our group composition may not have been the best for the fight, but we had about 1/2 our raid change talent points to down this encounter. Some of us may not be in the best PvE Raiding guild in the World . However it was probably down-able with my old spec, but it was progression, and I was just trying something to help make it easier.

On the Twin's encounter, our strategy started with 3 DPS of each color to absorb/protect the groups. After a few attempts where these protectors were fail, I decided that I can absorb some orbs. I went black, and changed my spec for Imp Barkskin, as I was going to eat the Light Vortex. It wasn't a big deal, just a few Nourishes on myself during one, and Tranq during the 2nd and I was fine, not dropping below 40%. The fight consists of 5xRej -> WG rotation, with a bit of movement to pick up orbs. Mana is easy going, as 20% mana from the Empowered Light buff after 100 Stacks, allowing the innervate to go somewhere else.

Again no one ever said dont take revitalize. All that was suggested was not all three points 1-2 is ok all three meh.

Any "this is what I want" set that doesn't include Val'anyr is idiotic. That proc is basically 5% increased throughput (yes, it could go to waste, but so could your heals) with 3.3k sp (that's low, I'm already over 3.5k fully buffed and my gear is mostly tier8) that's 165 sp. Plus it's 621 already there and the fact that it's got both haste and crit whilst you're no where near 510 then it just becomes an obvious choice. Anyone planning to "upgrade" from val'anyr before tier10 should be put in a mental institute. Though I think your overall message is right ^^ crit isn't hard to come by, especially since it's on about 90% of the drops.

You're right. I should go take a blizzard employee as hostage to produce 30 shards via fiat. I apologize for my idiocy. Actually I'll need 45 shards, because the other guy still has 15 left. What does this have to do with anything, by the way?

And why is 510 so crucial? You're losing a lot of crit to drop a point in GOTEM. Not worth it.

It's hardly maximized SP when you take haste/crit items over items with spirit, or 245 items when there are 258 ones available (belt, bracers, OH). Technically best rings would be [Band of Deplorable Violence] which you used and its heroic version.
Regardless the potential for hitting very high crit rates is there.

I have been scouring WoL for druids with 4 pc T9 to review their parses and start placing a value on the crit bonus. I've spent far more time than I care to admit trying to find these and then reviewing the rare nugget that I find. Unfortunately, there's not a lot of 4 pc T9 out in the wild at the moment, but I'm actually starting to build a reasonable amount of data (and I'm sure more will come as more and more folks finally achieve 4 pc T9).

But, even at this very early juncture, some of my earlier theorizations about what the bonus would be worth are being challenged. The basic gist of it is, when overheal is 0% and your crits are able to tick for full value, a % of crit adds a reasonable amount of effective throughput to the point that ~4% of crit might buy you another 1% of total effective throughput just based on 4 pc T9 Rejuv crits. However as overheal rises (60, 70, 80%), the value of crit drops because your Rejuv crits are more often than not either a) pure overheal, b) clipped such that they don't tick for anymore than your normal tick, or c) tick for more than your normal tick but not 1.5x value of normal. Situation a) is fairly easy to understand. A description of b) is your buffed normal tick is 2200, your buffed crit is 3300. Your crit procs on a target at -2000 health and it's effective heal is 2000. In this case, it has no more value than your normal tick that could have accomplished the same job. Situation c) would be a target at -2500 health and your crit RJ procs to heal for the full 2500. This is more than your normal tick would've done so there is value but it is only net 300 hp versus 1100 hp so not 1.5x


So, as overheal goes up, we can reasonably theorize that situations a, b, and c will happen more often and the value of crit as it relates to 4 pc T9 will effectively drop. And, from the parses I have been able to grab, I am definitely seeing this play out. At the moment, higher overheal is not lowering the value of crit as much as I would expect and not in the linear fashion I would expect but I *think* this is due to small sample size and randomness. Once I get a larger sample size, I'll post a formula that should give you a reasonable expectation of what each 1% of crit will buy you in 4 pc T9 RJ crit effective healing given two criteria: 1) % Rejuv of total effective healing, 2) % Overheal.

At the current downward value I've assigned to overheal, right now if I plug in 55% Rejuv of total effective healing and 65% Rejuv Overheal (a ToC heroic type profile that includes all fights -- note Twin Val'kyr tends to drop overheal average and other fights are higher), early indications are looking like you would need to stack a substantial amount of crit to net 1% total effective throughput. It is not ~4% but closer to ~7% crit to accomplish ~1% effective throughput. I'm still trying to tweak how much downward force overheal should play on the value of Rejuv crit but I can tell you the amount of crit needed to accomplish 1% throughput has been going up not down as the sample size of data I get grows. And, if you need to stack ~7% crit to get 1% throughput, how far out of our way should we go to push crit from 30% to 35%?

Now, I will say I have not yet factored in Nourish crits, Regrowth crits, etc. and depending on the percentage those make up of your ToC heal selection, that will factor in to crit value more or less as well. Cast time spells are gaining a higher value in ToC so I expect this will cause % crit required to gain a % of effective healing output to go downward but I fully expect at least 5% crit required to get 1% effective throughput given what I am seeing now (inclusive of 4 pc T9 bonus).

I can buy that (at least the crit gems). Keep in mind Chardev doesn't have all the updated 258 items, it only has what it can scrape from wowhead. Assume all 245 non heroic versions become 258s and there you go. Again, that set was just made to prove that 35% is easily attainable without sacrificing throughput of every other stat. I wouldn't necessarily use it or declare it the end-all-be-all. If you're like me, you'll probably pick up everything and play around with it to see what works best. This set happens to have just a hair under 4100 spellpower with normal raid buffs (ToW, no DP). You won't get much higher without gemming pure SP and using IDS over a 2nd solace.

I've been looking for 4t9 parses too, they're hard to find, and nobody has the kind of crit gear to evaluate the worth of, say, 20% tooltip crit vs 28% tooltip crit. My guess is that crit gems won't be worth gemming over SP gems unless its a +7 or +9 sp bonus (assuming you don't have mana problems). I don't see the merit of going over the soft haste cap at this point, unless you're planning around not having haste buffs in a 10 man in which case you swap a few slots and presto. Say you have 450 haste and you're looking at a belt upgrade. You have a haste option and a crit option, relatively equal stats. I would still take the crit option at this point even if it was a few spellpower less. It will equate to about 2% crit. Obviously this is going to give you less than 1% increased EHPS but what was the haste going to give you? Are you casting nourish and regrowth that much? In that case, your EHPS is already suffering.

I tend to see about 60% overhealing with rejuv (the hot, not the 4t8). Most fights it accounts for 30-40% of my healing (again, just the hot). I have a feeling this will change without the initial 2k (by increasing overall health deficit initially, granting higher chance to get 4+ effective heal ticks instead of 3), thus increasing the value of crit. I'll very much miss the frontloaded 2k tick, but I think at the end of the road with the massive spellpower increase and crit gear available, the effective healing done by rejuv will be just as high as it was in ulduar. Especially something like twin valks.

Either way, the content we have to test this with is a pretty horrible benchmark for its performance.

Erm you think 44 Spirit from the normal version of that ring (which when fully buffed in a raid gives you 9~SP) is going to be better for pure SP than the non-Spirit ring which has a socket? even if you go for the socket bonus on [Ring of the Darkmender] it results in a total of 110SP vs the 98~SP from the normal version of the Spirit ring.

This is focused purely on the maximum SP value and nothing to do with Crit vs Haste/MP5.

Naturally when you consider only SP, the ring with the most SP wins I think that when you factor in the crit, then it becomes a wash. That said, [Ring of the Darkmender] will probably win out in the end. Given the high contention the heroic anub ring will have and the difficulty of the encounter, using the normal ring and darkmender will be more common.
Another very viable option is the quest reward from onyxia, Polished Dragonslayer's Signet - Items - Sigrie

I'm looking some advice from resto druid who have healed on Anub'Arak HM P3 in 10 players Mod.

We are only two healers a paladin and me, and I have some problems to heal the raid, no problem for the tank, no problems for peoples who have no debuff, one rejuv is ok.

But for the penetrating cold, I try to swiftmend one and nourish the other, and maintain them middle life, but If I have to refresh some rejuv on the raid, one of the die.

What "cycle" do you use to maintain the raid in P3 ?
Do you also use WG during this phase ?

Sorry for my english.

My thoughts on this are, if you are only maintaing the raid members with Penetrating Cold at 50% HP this doesn't leave you with much leway. Are you unable to top them off? or are you keeping them at 50% health due to the phase 3 requirements.? I too have healed Anub'Arak with a Holy pally and Myself.
When it comes to phase 3 I keep the tank fully hotted and rejuve/Nourish my penetrating cold targets and toss a WG/Rejuve on the raid when needed. I keep them fully topped off (Penetrating Cold), Doing this allows me to also refresh hots on the tank and toss a Nourish when needed. Not sure if this helps but it's my strategy and seems to work because no one dies and the ugly bug goes down .

I had similar issues 2 healing this in Heroic 10man, with a disc priest and resto druid (me).
Basically we used a strategy where, when a new penetrating cold happened (2 targets), the disc priest would switch from his tank healing to put a shield on the person 'higher' on his raid frames (IE Group 1 = 1-5, Group 2 = 6-10), and i would nourish/rejuv the person 'lower', and then top up the other person. The shield would essentially eat the first tick of penetrating cold on the person i healed second, which allowed me time to get them both up to a decent level of HP.

For your makeup, you could consider having your holy pally throw a FoL/Holy shock (or both) onto one person, with some sort of pre-assigned system like i described.