If you are casting GHT (or nourish, for that matter) you are playing a losing game of catch-up. A glyphed rejuv heals for about 27K for a 1 second cast time. Needless to say nothing can compete with that output.
Let the direct healers handle the first 2 ticks, you are there to handle the rest of the PC damage.
We have 2 paladins on the tanks and that's more than enough, they can easily assist with a single shock on one target just to mitigate a tick.
You can hot the tanks after you do the rjeuvs but make sure to have a GCD ready for the next PC wave. You have to sit on your GCD for a long time if needed, he can delay the cast for quite a bit. Suck it up, and have the other raid healers do it as well. You can't afford any delays in healing.
If you cast 2 GHTs to handle the first tick you are pretty much were you started. You wasted 2.5 seconds or so to mitigate 3 seconds worth of damage. Now what?
GHT:
In Anub 10man heroic, using GHT you can solo heal all the PC and keep the raid up with WG and/or some hots in your 'spare' time. If you also have a paladin healer, he can solo heal the tanks, and then you dont need anyone else to assist on healing.
In Anub 25man heroic, GHT is also very usefull since it heals enough (don't need to land 10k heals for a 5k dot) and it is fast and requires no prehot. The mana cost is higher but for the last (short) phase it is fine. GHT heals around 7k none-crit which is more than enough to heal the PC. You can heal 2x PC, or 1xPC and assist on other assignments (tank / leech healing). If you are assigned to heal only 1xPC, you can also be "backup" in case someone else in charge of healing a single PC dies.
I strongly support assigned healers deal with PC on thier own. That is no mixing several healers to combine heal several PC, since then its much harder to see who is not doing his job and fix it. If you assign for each PC a specific healer in charge of keeping that guy up, and that guy dies from it, you know who messed up and can teach him quickly how to improve. GHT is the fastest way for druids to heal thier assigned PC without external assistance.
Once you heal someone up, you can put a rejuv and nourish if you prefer that. You simply can't afford to waist time on hots before the first PC tick.
In 10man heroic faction champions, if you are using some sort of heavy "hot" healing setup (for example you bring 2 resto druids) then it is also very usefull to have fast 'good-sized' heals to handle spike damage.
Just to compare, a priest's flash heal (which is massively used by any priest) heals for less usually (lets assume same gear quality) and takes longer to cast (even though both have same gcd). The only downside i can think of when comparing GHT to flash heal is the mana cost and the potential shield if that priest is disc (even though we have LS).
Running Anub'arak 25 heroic for first time tonight and (outside of the glyphed RJ vs HT discussion which I have my opinion on), how exactly are you assigning healers to PC targets. I could say this healer taker group 5, this healer take group 4, etc. but I've seen 3 PC targets in one group. I don't want anyone with more than 2 PC targets due to 3 seconds limitation before first tick. Do you start in a corner of Grid and have first healer take first two targets starting from top right for instance. Next healer takes next two targets? Best I can think of atm. I just want to make sure however random the PC targets are, assigned healers are quickly able to pick out who they have to cover on that spawn.
Running Anub'arak 25 heroic for first time tonight.
DBM assigns raid icons to each PC target. Make sure Grid-users install GridStatusRaidIcon. Vuhdo users should have icons readily shown, not sure about healbot. Assign each icon to healer(s).
Running Anub'arak 25 heroic for first time tonight and (outside of the glyphed RJ vs HT discussion which I have my opinion on), how exactly are you assigning healers to PC targets. I could say this healer taker group 5, this healer take group 4, etc. but I've seen 3 PC targets in one group. I don't want anyone with more than 2 PC targets due to 3 seconds limitation before first tick. Do you start in a corner of Grid and have first healer take first two targets starting from top right for instance. Next healer takes next two targets? Best I can think of atm. I just want to make sure however random the PC targets are, assigned healers are quickly able to pick out who they have to cover on that spawn.
This seems like the most reasonable tactic. I've seen 4 PC targets in the same group so assigning by group is a big no-no. We have 2 healers covering the first 2 and last 2 targets each and the third gets shocked by the tank healers. You can practice this during phase 1 as nothing really exciting happens there.
As for not mixing healing, I strong do not support this suggestion. If someone has a glyphed rejuv on them, assuming they survive the next tick, the will survive the PC. We actually have 2 druids keeping rejuvs on all 5 targets and this lets 3rd tick onwards be very controlled, allowing the raid healers to be fully prepared for the next wave. All targets besides maybe the 3rd have a rejuv ticking before the 2nd PC tick and all have 2 before the 3rd. What is true is that you want direct healers to be assigned and for them to follow that assignment rigorously to ensure the targets survive the first tick.
Like most fights this is rather setup dependent so YMMV.
I agree with Hamlet. GHT is generally a waste, though to be fair it might depend on your healing strategy. Ideally you're not responsible for the initial tick, but rather sustaining following that tick. We have 2 disc priests that cover 2 pc's each and then a shaman RT'ing the 5th. Obviously if two people are low, I can RJ one, nourish the second, and mend the first if necessary (however someone else is already assigned to get that first method of protection in). It really just depends on what you are doing as a raid.
<Nite_Moogle> i miss raiding with carebare :< she makes me feel like i am not the only person that hates everyone
Aldriana: I am an asshole, it just so happens that some of my colleagues are even *bigger* assholes.
[R] [85:Neux:2]: i hear if you die on Good Friday they are going to make it where you can't get rezzed until easter sunday
Khazal: Yeah, I don't know about Magic Rainbow Unicorn Land, but here in Reality, Rhyolith is the worst encounter Blizzard has ever designed.
f you cast 2 GHTs to handle the first tick you are pretty much were you started. You wasted 2.5 seconds or so to mitigate 3 seconds worth of damage. Now what?
The two people have around 10k hp, and after that you hot the two and after that you hot the three others (and the tank). It's all about preference and I don't see a need to debate this - it's what you want to do as a guild.
Running Anub'arak 25 heroic for first time tonight and (outside of the glyphed RJ vs HT discussion which I have my opinion on), how exactly are you assigning healers to PC targets. I could say this healer taker group 5, this healer take group 4, etc. but I've seen 3 PC targets in one group. I don't want anyone with more than 2 PC targets due to 3 seconds limitation before first tick. Do you start in a corner of Grid and have first healer take first two targets starting from top right for instance. Next healer takes next two targets? Best I can think of atm. I just want to make sure however random the PC targets are, assigned healers are quickly able to pick out who they have to cover on that spawn.
Everyone's grid is set up the same, groups 1-5, but alphabetical order within each group. So you literally assign PC 1, PC 2, PC 3 etc.
So assuming you have the following: PCs are on 2, 3, 4, 22, 23 -- 2 is PC 1, 3 is PC 2, 4 is PC 3, 22 is PC 4, 23 is PC 5, etc.
<Nite_Moogle> i miss raiding with carebare :< she makes me feel like i am not the only person that hates everyone
Aldriana: I am an asshole, it just so happens that some of my colleagues are even *bigger* assholes.
[R] [85:Neux:2]: i hear if you die on Good Friday they are going to make it where you can't get rezzed until easter sunday
Khazal: Yeah, I don't know about Magic Rainbow Unicorn Land, but here in Reality, Rhyolith is the worst encounter Blizzard has ever designed.
So assuming you have the following: PCs are on 2, 3, 4, 22, 23 -- 2 is PC 1, 3 is PC 2, 4 is PC 3, 22 is PC 4, 23 is PC 5, etc.
That's just a default. I have G1 on the right, for example, so you have to be careful to be specific when assigning things to people. But I imagine most people leave it as group/alphabetical, even if they change the orientation, so it shouldn't be too complicated.
The two people have around 10k hp, and after that you hot the two and after that you hot the three others (and the tank). It's all about preference and I don't see a need to debate this - it's what you want to do as a guild.
Your target will not be at 10K HP after a GHT. The raid is kept at 1K HP, a GHT is not 9K and nothing close to that.
If you have a druid handling 2 targets, I can see some case to using GHT maybe, although nourish should do the job as well - but the truth is druids are terrible for this task, the least suited of all the healing classes. This is because, ironically enough, we are the only ones without a direct instant heal. We can't do the casted heal->instant heal (or straight-up 2 shields) that other classes have. You might as well be a paladin that can do a lot more for the raid - bop, extra beacon on one of the tanks etc.
We are, on the other hand, excellent for dealing with the long term damage of PC. And that's what we need to do.
The need for debate is quite obvious - analyze and optimize healing strategy for this rather unusual fight.
We have an non-ideal comp tonight for this which is making my life even more difficult. I have 4 paladins, 2 druids, 1 priest available to me for tonight (and that is the only priest we have raid-wide). My thought atm is to have the priest go shadow for VE and let that plus JoL keep the raid upright. Assuming that first thought is sound, I will have 4 paladins and 2 druids for active heal duty in P3.
EDIT: Thinking Paladin 1-2 cover tanks. Paladin 3 covers two PC targets with Holy Shock plus Flash of Light. Paladin 4 covers two PC targets using same strategy. I cover 5th PC target with Glyphed RJ + SM. Final druid starts rolling glyphed RJs on the 4 Paladin PC targets. Rinse, wash repeat on next PC cycle.
Seems sound to me but willing to hear feedback -- building this on the fly based on raid signups.
Also, if we are pushing enrage, do we really need that final druid healer or could we roll it with 4 Paladins plus 1 Druid plus VE and JoL.
My reasoning behind using glyphed HT on Anub is that no one ever dies to the later ticks of PC even without rejuv on the target. Many people die from the first tick. For us, it isn't about the most efficient healing spread, it's about keeping the raid alive. We also have had an inconsistent number of priests available.
We have an non-ideal comp tonight for this which is making my life even more difficult. I have 4 paladins, 2 druids, 1 priest available to me for tonight (and that is the only priest we have raid-wide). My thought atm is to have the priest go shadow for VE and let that plus JoL keep the raid upright. Assuming that first thought is sound, I will have 4 paladins and 2 druids for active heal duty in P3.
EDIT: Thinking Paladin 1-2 cover tanks. Paladin 3 covers two PC targets with Holy Shock plus Flash of Light. Paladin 4 covers two PC targets using same strategy. I cover 5th PC target with Glyphed RJ + SM. Final druid starts rolling glyphed RJs on the 4 Paladin PC targets. Rinse, wash repeat on next PC cycle.
Seems sound to me but willing to hear feedback -- building this on the fly based on raid signups.
I'd use the Priest as Disc (as long as you have a Moonkin for IFF). VE isn't exceptionally strong--even if that leaves a group uncovered by HST/JoL, with 2 Trees you have no shortage of Rejuvs for those people. The two Shields every PC are a great help.
ASSUMING YOU HAVE NOT MODIFIED GRID TOO MUCH, It should read like this, Groups going accross G1: 1-5, G2: 6-10, etc. Going down in alphabetical order. This is where the priority goes. As we filter through Penetrating Cold targets, this is what is going to happen:
Swamp priortizes putting Rejuve on PC targets in this order below. If 1-3-16-22-25 get PC, he will put his rejuve on 1 then 3 then 16 then 22 then 25. I will prioritize the opposite: 25 then 22 then 16 then 3 then 1. Assuming the priests do the same with their PW:S. Maybe having the 3rd Priest PW;S the Middle guy.
Remember its first initial damage is not until after THREE seconds after the debuff is applied. In Theory, and after I talk to my second resto druid, It should look like this:
5 targets get PC: A,B,C,D,E
First second: A Gets Rejuved by Tree #2 (notme), E Gets Rejuved by Tree #1 (me)
Second second: B Gets Rejuved by Tree #2, D by me.
Third second: C Gets Rejuved by both Trees,
FIRST TICK OF PC GOES OFF BUT NO TARGET GETS HEALED BY A DRUID
Fourth second: D by #2, B by #1
Fifth second: E by #2, A by #1
Targets A,B,D,E but not C should all get 1 tick of Rejuve Healing (3k+1.5K Glyphed) 4.5k done to them by the second tick of PC.
Target C gets 2 ticks of Rejuve, one from each druid, resulting in 9k Healing done. Rejuve last for 18 seconds, as well as PC. 2 Rejuves on one target is sufficient to heal them up. However, most of you have already seen the problem. Those first two ticks of PC (12k unmitigated) are only being healed for 4.5k. The first tick of 6k unmitigated isn't being healed at all. This is where Disc Priests come in to play. Instant PW:S absorbing the first tick, and healing for enough amount (Glyphed) to survive the first one (or maybe two) ticks. If they follow a similar rotation such as mine for the resto druids, it should work out. Assuming each priest can get 2 PW;S off before the first tick, we would need 3 Priests (which we have).
This is what I posted on my guild forums about our healing strategy for P3 Anub. I am open to construction, but this is the current strategy in which we approach phase 3, and I hope this can help solve any questions or rotations or anything at all about healing P3. Also for Arythorn, or any other healer that has yet to pull Anub but will soon. Getting to phase 3 isn't a joke. At least it isn't for my guild. A viable kiting strat is going to be needed for the spikes. We have 1 Holy Pally and 1 Resto Shaman on tank healing. We may have a Disc Priest tank heal as well.
Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity.
This is what I posted on my guild forums about our healing strategy for P3 Anub. I am open to construction, but this is the current strategy in which we approach phase 3, and I hope this can help solve any questions or rotations or anything at all about healing P3. Also for Arythorn, or any other healer that has yet to pull Anub but will soon. Getting to phase 3 isn't a joke. At least it isn't for my guild. A viable kiting strat is going to be needed for the spikes. We have 1 Holy Pally and 1 Resto Shaman on tank healing. We may have a Disc Priest tank heal as well.
That's fine. You're overanalyzing the Rejuving--the real difficulty is covering that first tick. With 3 Priests, you're golden. With two, 2x2 Shields and a Swiftmend is easy and repeatable.
There's challenge in the fight pre-P3 for sure, but it's not healing. The only interesting healing is in P3. Before that, the spell I spend the most time casting, completely literally, is Hurricane.
We have a couple of groups that have done Tribute runs on 10s and have been practicing a HoP kite strategy using minimal orbs. I have also covered this, posted videos for those that haven't done it of forums, etc. I don't expect it to be a pushover but we have 4 hours and 29 attempts to work with tonight so I'm optimistic we will be getting to phase 3 reliably be end of night.
There's challenge in the fight pre-P3 for sure, but it's not healing. The only interesting healing is in P3. Before that, the spell I spend the most time casting, completely literally, is Hurricane.
I was up to 2.5k DPS pre-P3 on our attempts, as I usually got a OoC proc every time I used Hurricane. I will admit that I have not seen much Phase 3 Healing, so my over-analyzing and preparedness may be too much. My guild was formed mid-August and we didn't have any orange-mace healers. While we cleared up to Anub Heroic fairly quickly, we have been farming HM Ulduar since August trying to get us maces. After completing our second mace Thursday, I am just really anxious to get back to "real" progression. I would love a quick kill of it for my guild (as would anybody), so I am coming over-prepared.
Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity.
Fortunately for my guild, we're blessed with a good (large) group of raid healers. 3 paladins, 5 priests (3 holy, 2 discipline), 2 shamans, and 2 of us trees, and all 12 of us signed up for tonight. One of the paladins and one of the discipline priests have Val'anyr. We'll see what our raid leader decides on in terms of comp. I'm trying to convince him to not have us trees do the GHT heal and just do HoTs, but he's not fully convinced since so many of the WoL logs show it, and several videos as well.
Thanks for all the responses, it has helped my understanding.
While I don't feel our healing strat is the most efficient, we have killed Anub 25 heroic this way so I will share how we do it. 7 healers consisting of two druids, two disc priests, two paladins, and one resto shaman. Paladins are always healing on our tanks, and the other five of us are assigned the 1st through 5th PC target. The other druid and I get the 1st and the 5th spot since they are the easiest to visually locate on grid (and we don't use the grid raid icon mod.) One, unhotted nourish when PC appears works perfectly fine to top someone off before a death. After that depending on who it lands on, I might throw a single Lifebloom on them for the next nourish. Our two disc priests and resto shaman get targets 2, 3, and 4. In between one heal on the PC target, they throw one heal on the tanks. I don't believe we lost anyone to PC during our kill until the very end when some of the healers started to throw some dps on anub. We are also very strongly dependent on people using a healthstone, immunity, frost resist pot, etc as soon as the PC lands on them to offset any latency or healer reaction time issues.
I would love for us to be able to utilize our two disc priests better than we do, so that they have more than just 1 target each. That would probably free us up to bring 6 healers (if need be) and focus more on the tanks, or helping out the probable stray person who couldn't fit in a healing stream group.
I think the babysit approach - one healer per PC target - is actually very stable and viable way of healing. It surely is a straightforward one and that's good. It does require 7 healers though, which is a bit of a downside. If you're going for the safe kill and are confident in your DPS, then it's quite a solid healing strategy.
To rototoro - you really have 12 healers in your guild? Must be a headache to sort out your raids
If you have a druid handling 2 targets, I can see some case to using GHT maybe, although nourish should do the job as well - but the truth is druids are terrible for this task, the least suited of all the healing classes. This is because, ironically enough, we are the only ones without a direct instant heal. We can't do the casted heal->instant heal (or straight-up 2 shields) that other classes have. You might as well be a paladin that can do a lot more for the raid - bop, extra beacon on one of the tanks etc.
Unless you're running a very tightly set up PC healing configuration (ie. healer-specific raid marks that show up on grid) with a minimal amount of healers, it's the first tick that kills people. The whole question is about how many targets you can supply with a ~6k heal during a three-second time frame. With low latency, fast reaction time, and proper spec/gear a druid might even be able to heal three targets before the first tick with GHT. That isn't very practical though, but two targets with GHT leaves ample room to throw hots on the tanks and possibly supplement passive healing with downranked rejuvenations. This is probably on-par with or better than the utility priests and shamans bring.
On the other hand, if you have clearly assigned targets that can never fail (which, in all honesty, probably is the better strategy), why would someone bring five non-tank healers for that? Have two healers take care of two targets each and a paladin healing the last one with beacon on tank, plus two tank healers. Any more seems like a waste. Certainly it's better to have two extra dps than two extra healers twiddling their thumbs. And here we come full circle again - you'll need to be able to heal two targets effectively and preferably do extra, and here GHT shines.
The extra unassigned time to throw some extra heals simply doesn't compare to the flexibility - the second PC target - GHT grants.
Unless you're running a very tightly set up PC healing configuration (ie. healer-specific raid marks that show up on grid) with a minimal amount of healers, it's the first tick that kills people. The whole question is about how many targets you can supply with a ~6k heal during a three-second time frame. With low latency, fast reaction time, and proper spec/gear a druid might even be able to heal three targets before the first tick with GHT. That isn't very practical though, but two targets with GHT leaves ample room to throw hots on the tanks and possibly supplement passive healing with downranked rejuvenations. This is probably on-par with or better than the utility priests and shamans bring.
On the other hand, if you have clearly assigned targets that can never fail (which, in all honesty, probably is the better strategy), why would someone bring five non-tank healers for that? Have two healers take care of two targets each and a paladin healing the last one with beacon on tank, plus two tank healers. Any more seems like a waste. Certainly it's better to have two extra dps than two extra healers twiddling their thumbs. And here we come full circle again - you'll need to be able to heal two targets effectively and preferably do extra, and here GHT shines.
The extra unassigned time to throw some extra heals simply doesn't compare to the flexibility - the second PC target - GHT grants.
I tend to agree, Anub is quite doable with 5 healers, if stacked properly. Something like 2 paladins for tank healing, 2 disc priests and a random healer class. We've run it with 6, never with 7.
Your GCD will prevent you from healing 3 targets, I don't see it as even remotely feasible.
Shamans bring healing stream which is one less group to worry about. Granted priests don't bring a lot of utility, but I'll take 2 bubbles over 2 GHTs any day. Shields don't inflate leech. Keep in a mind a GHT hits your first target will be eaten by at least 1 tick of leech, quite possibly 2. That's 25-50% of the heal down the drain. GHT is barely enough to cover the tick as it is.
I made some graphs showing the 3.3 resto druid haste soft cap, as well as the actual GCD time below cap. All of the graphs include 5/5 GotEM, but other buffs/talents are treated as variables.
The first plot shows the haste cap for every combination of buffs and talent points into Celestial Focus. The rest show the actual GCD you will get for any given haste rating.
So while we're on the topic of H Anub, how exactly is the glyphed Rejuv working. Someone said over its duration it should be healing 27k damage. PC ticks every 3 seconds, as does Rejuv, so the damage to healing should be fine. Assuming the first tick of PC is handled just fine, what kind of healing do you need to keep the person up through the rest? One glyphed RJ on them all? Two? Spot healing from other raid healers as well? How much is the glyphed RJ healing on average per tick and how much damage is the PC doing per tick?
10/19/09, 8:54 AM
