Rapid Rejuv: This is the 3.3 change I am most looking forward to. A major increase to throughput for my most effective (and favorite) healing spell is welcome to compensate for other changes. As I see it, there are very few fights this won't be beneficial. I'm not sure about the rest of you, but most of the time I'm casting rejuv its reactive. Also, I rarely ever need to cover more than 6-8 targets with rejuv at a time. If there are 8 people in the raid who are spread out and have taken significant damage, rejuving them all as fast as possible seems like the best solution, and this situation seems pretty common. Also, this glyph will be excellent for tank "buffer" healing. Even in fights such as Twins, I have another druid assisting me pretty much every time we raid. Between the two of us, we can cover almost the entire raid even with this glyph...and our soakers and tanks will get a much-appreciated boost.
Innervate: I use my own. In fights I don't need it nobody else does, either, so that is hardly worth mentioning. As someone a few posts up said, I could take Spark and Duck Idol so I could spare innervate in nearly every fight, but I would be losing something like 430 SP which makes up a significant chunk of my healing. This sacrifice's rewards do not justify the cost IMO.
Regrowth: I'll have to play with it a little, and it seems like it might cover the few instances where the entire raid is taking damage all at once. However, as close as I cut it with mana, and it having such a small tick, I doubt it will see much use. It will probably remain something I just use on tanks as a buffer or for niche purposes like napalm shell on Mimiron.
Gearing for haste: Getting to 850 haste isn't going to be as easy as some people claim. Gear drops are imperfect, and we still have to share the loot with the rest of the raid. For a while, we will still have some slots that it will come down to keeping crit or going with a lower iLevel haste piece (and losing out on all the other important stats). Also, looking at the new "orb" craftable gear, its clear that Blizzard isn't going to do us any favors as 3 out of 4 pieces (including cloth) we would be interested in have crit instead of haste. I think its safe to assume that a lot of us will be under the haste cap for a while after 3.3 hits.
I use my Innervate on myself. The way I see it, either I will be gearing to rely on it or someone else will be, and the latter doesn't make sense from a raid efficiency/reliability standpoint. I will be the first to admit that there is a certain amount of downside to this approach, mostly because of Rebirth (either having to Innervate someone I Rebirth, or dying shortly after I use my Innervate and getting BR'd just to OOM right away). But those are exceptional cases and the alternative is, IMO, worse... i.e. using Idol of Awakening and Spark of Hope over Flourishing Growth and Illustration is a very large sacrifice of throughput for an uncertain return.
Glyph of Rapid Rejuv: we'll just have to wait and see. (Likewise with the 4T10 bonus, which could be anywhere between awesome and worthless, depending on the fine print.) I'm skeptical of GoRR, or at least I'm skeptical that it will be a benefit in every fight; we might end up carrying around stacks of glyphs and swapping them out as needed, which would kinda suck. Much depends on what the Icecrown bosses throw at us.
Although I have 4T9 now, I still use 4T8 quite a bit, especially in 10-mans. Even post-nerf, the 4T8 bonus is extremely powerful. Blizzard screwed up there and I'm surprised it took them as long as it did to "fix" it.
Wrath of Air and Improved Moonkin Aura/Swift Retribution Aura
5/5 GotE = ~13.48% =~442Haste Rating
Formula used to reduce the GCD to 1s
((1-x)*1.5/((1+x)*mod)-1)*100=haste%
Where x is the amount granted by GotE (10%=0.1) and mod is haste modifiers (Wrath of Air and Improved Moonkin Aura => mod = 1.05*1.03)
e: I forgot haste modifiers other than haste rating stacks multiplicatively, and this applies to new GotE.
I've been meaning to bring this up for a while. Nobody corrected this post, but I was curious about it. It basically refers to the latest version of GoTEM:
Gift of the Earthmother: Redesigned. This talent now increases spell haste and reduces the base global cooldown by 2/4/6/8/10% instead of its previous effect.
To me this is worded as it the meaning was (10% haste) + (reduction of GCD to 0.9 seconds). Personally, I'm really hoping my interpretation is wrong and we only need 442 haste to hit the 1 second GCD. If I'm right, the second part of the talent is gonna be hard to make useful. With only 10% haste from GotEM its gonna be hard enough to hit a 1 second GCD. To get a 0.9 second GCD, its gonna be downright ridiculous.
I think that's just a bad misprint, and what it's supposed to be is, "increases spell haste by 10% and further reduces the GCD of Lifebloom by 10%." We'll see though.
How does it currently work on the PTR? I haven't checked in a few days; maybe I'll try tomorrow.
In phase 1 you've said that "the best thing I can do for them is give them a consistent underlay of sustained, even hps to heal over (RG, LBx3, RJ) and not jam back-to-back Nourish throughout the fight" but no where did you justify why. You can quite easily keep RG,LB-slowstack and RJ up on BOTH tanks AND WG melee after they get aoe AS WELL AS RJing the odd person on snowbolled (RJing someone who stepped into a fire is pointless and stupid unless you're swiftmending them because they're standing in a fire, by the time 1 tick goes off someone else would have healed it) whilst spamming Nourish on the tanks in between doing these. You can easily ease off someone who wants to do something else for half a second and let a few of your hots drop before they're ready again and you can go back to putting your HoTs back up. This allows for a lot more flexibility in your healing as a raid. If you don't like doing, can't do or don't trust your other healers that's fine, but that's not what these forums are for; these forums are for getting the best out of your character and if you're not alleviating other people and giving your innervates away, then I'm sorry but you're not giving to the raid as much as you could be doing.
In phase 2 if you use it more than once because of exactly the same damage (tank getting hit) then you're just weaving it in between HoTs, which is exactly what I'm trying to say to do. You don't just stand there twiddling your thumbs or uselessly RJing random people in the raid, you pop a heal on a tank when you get time. It's not a reactive heal to me, it's something I throw when I notice all my HoTs have 2+seconds left to tick and I throw it in case the tank takes damage. If you use it as a reactive heal, then fine, but that means any time the tank is at 100% health and you decided not to Nourish, then he takes a spike, you're going to react to the health deficit and delay reapplying your HoTs. Trying to suggest that I advocated spamming Nourish and nothing else is not only insulting it's degrading us both, the whole point I'm trying to get across (and stated a few times) is that if you see 20% of your healing as SM/Nourish as often as a blue moon, then you could be offering more to your raid than you currently are.
When assigned to tank healing (10man Alga with 2 resto druids?) I find Nourish comes top of my healing, closely followed by RJ then lifebloom and then Regrowth and finally Swiftmend (WG is in there, but I omitted it as it's not always in the same spot). Nourish quite often takes up more than 40% of my healing doing this.
The point I'm trying to make is not for tank healing, it's for raid healing when the raid isn't taking any damage. There are plenty of times when there's no damage on the raid and nothing you can see incoming either, and at these times if you've got all your HoTs up you have choices, and I believe the best choice is to throw Nourish. If you can give me a reason why it's a bad thing, then I will accept and stop these so far fruitless posts, but until then I will just point out that no one has told me why weaving in Nourishes is a bad idea.
Originally Posted by Fallenangel
A rolling lifebloom has more HPM than nourish
(All numbers below are numbers I get when using the spells with 3.5-4k sp)
Rolling lifebloom costs 780 mana for 9 seconds of ticks of 1.7k health(I assumed Glyph for Lifebloom, which is more than I assumed for Nourish, so I hope you see how generous to your case I was being). Nourish costs 550 mana and heals for 10k, 19.5k if crits (living seed makes our crits give 195% of non-crit). My druid unbuffed currently sits on 47% crit, with Moonkin Aura alone that goes over 50%, so I'll just assume 50% for sake of ease of numbers. So Nourish will average 14.75k whilst rolling lifeblooms will average 15.3k. That's 4% more healing for 42% more mana usage. I do wish you'd actually use mathematics to look at things before you stated them outright, instead of shoving your foot in your mouth.
Just to further rub salt into the wounds, I'm going to also figure out slow-stack + 1 nourish compared to rolling lifebloom. Can easily use the same numbers, Nourish will average 14.75k and slowstack will average 2/3rds of rolling (2/3 * 15.3 = 10.2) plus a bloom of roughly equal size to Nourish (it's actually more, but again, I'm being generous). Bloom has 18% base for me, so clearly with buffs it'll be over 20%. So again 0.8*10k + 0.2*19.5k = 11.9k. That's total of 14.75 + 10.2 + 11.9 = 36.85k. For mana usage: rolling is 780 and slow-stacking is 780 - 490 = 290, add on 550 for the Nourish and it's 840. So we have 141% more healing for 8% more mana usage.
To me this is worded as it the meaning was (10% haste) + (reduction of GCD to 0.9 seconds). Personally, I'm really hoping my interpretation is wrong and we only need 442 haste to hit the 1 second GCD. If I'm right, the second part of the talent is gonna be hard to make useful. With only 10% haste from GotEM its gonna be hard enough to hit a 1 second GCD. To get a 0.9 second GCD, its gonna be downright ridiculous.
I've worked on it as if it were "(10% haste) + (reduction of GCD by 10%)" the GCD part meaning you only need to reduce NS's cast time to 1.111 to make GCD 1s
RJing someone who stepped into a fire is pointless and stupid unless you're swiftmending them because they're standing in a fire, by the time 1 tick goes off someone else would have healed it . . .
I'm raid healing, it's my job to top them off. I guess I can make the assumption that "someone else would have healed it" every time a raid member takes damage . . . but I know our heal team and I know how we have coverage set. Also, even when someone gets out of the fire, there is a persistent DoT which a HoT like RJ is ideally suited to cover. If someone cast time heals them to full, the DoT will continue ticking. With a 1 sec GCD, I've dealt with that damage for it's duration -- tell me what spell or healing class is better suited to do this than RJ and a druid. But it's clearly "pointless and stupid" for me to heal it with RJ . . .
Originally Posted by grimtage
If you don't like doing, can't do or don't trust your other healers that's fine, but that's not what these forums are for; these forums are for getting the best out of your character and if you're not alleviating other people and giving your innervates away, then I'm sorry but you're not giving to the raid as much as you could be doing . . . In phase 2 if you use it more than once because of exactly the same damage (tank getting hit) then you're just weaving it in between HoTs, which is exactly what I'm trying to say to do. You don't just stand there twiddling your thumbs or uselessly RJing random people in the raid, you pop a heal on a tank when you get time . . .
It's the fact that I DO TRUST my other healers that causes me not to throw completely unnecessary Nourishes on the tanks. I do not need to be all things to all people. We have assignments of coverage. I give our Paladins a consistent underlay of hps (RJ, LBx3, RG) that they can rely on being there; they deal with the spikes and that underlay of hps gives keeps the incoming a bit more level and regular. This is synergistic. Me throwing Nourishes down on the tanks in addition is not required whatsoever. Honestly, 2 coordinated Paladins are plenty of burst coverage on the tank without me throwing Nourish in. We have two druids putting RJ, LBx3, RG on the tanks plus two Paladins with complete focus on them. The tanks have all the TLC they need and then some.
I guess I could junk some mana and GCD time on Nourishing them as well but there's no good reason given our heal team setup to do this . . . other than boredom or to maybe to take care of a nervous twitch. I mean theres always space bar for the nervous twitch and it doesn't cost any mana. Jump tree jump. Also, if I want to give my innervate away to someone else and provide the most value possible to my raid as you put it, I probably shouldn't waste mana by throwing down excess healing.
Originally Posted by grimtage
Trying to suggest that I advocated spamming Nourish and nothing else is not only insulting it's degrading us both, the whole point I'm trying to get across (and stated a few times) is that if you see 20% of your healing as SM/Nourish as often as a blue moon, then you could be offering more to your raid than you currently are . . .
The only thing that is insulting and degrading is your tone in general to multiple people on this board -- and now it's starting to be reflected in my tone as well. What I am saying is, if your Nourish/SM is upward of 20%, then you must be casting it more than occasionally and probably somewhat frequently back-to-back. There's no other way you are going to get it to 20% of your output. I'm further saying that, given my heal-team synergy, there is no good reason to be doing this. Maybe in yours there is. Your experience/setup does not equal everyone else's experience/setup. We run with 2 Paladins on tanks every night. They have it on lock. We run with 2 Druids on raid and we have that on lock. A fifth member of the heal team is a Holy/Disc priest that will switch spec/coverage as the fight demands or a Resto Shaman. The Priest/Shaman are there to provide burst healing on raid when necessary or additional coverage on tanks when necessary. We do a fine job of keeping everything upright with a zone coverage model and leveraging heal-team synergy. There are different ways of doing things -- your way is not the only way or even the best way. If it works for you great -- your tactics are completely unnecessary and superfluous in our setup.
Originally Posted by grimtage
When assigned to tank healing (10man Alga with 2 resto druids?) I find Nourish comes top of my healing, closely followed by RJ then lifebloom and then Regrowth and finally Swiftmend (WG is in there, but I omitted it as it's not always in the same spot). Nourish quite often takes up more than 40% of my healing doing this . . .
In 25 ToC heroics, my Nourish/SM is consistently less than 10%, very often lower than 5%. I use Swiftmend when it is necessary to get someone safe, not because it is currently off cooldown. Similarly, I use Nourish when there is burst damage that I personally need to cover. Other than that, I am providing a steady flow of hps to the raid and tanks that makes healing a lot easier for our healers that are cast-time bound.
When I am two-healing 10s with a Paladin -- absolutely Nourish takes on a much larger role in my output. But, while it takes on a bit more prominence in my output, it is still around 10% -- not 20%. Now, if I was primary tank healing with another druid as you talk about then, yes, I would expect my Nourish output to take a drastic jump as it would make complete sense. But when I am raid healing 10s or 25s, I've yet to find a heavy use of Nourish to be the most effective way to keep things upright.
Originally Posted by grimtage
The point I'm trying to make is not for tank healing, it's for raid healing when the raid isn't taking any damage. There are plenty of times when there's no damage on the raid and nothing you can see incoming either, and at these times if you've got all your HoTs up you have choices, and I believe the best choice is to throw Nourish. If you can give me a reason why it's a bad thing, then I will accept and stop these so far fruitless posts, but until then I will just point out that no one has told me why weaving in Nourishes is a bad idea.
20% Nourish / SM output may be a good idea or even be necessary given the dynamics of your heal team. The way I have our heal team built, Nourish at that level would be minimally-productive at best, counter-productive at worst. I'm glad it works for you. Stop insisting it's the only way that will work for others.
(All numbers below are numbers I get when using the spells with 3.5-4k sp)
Rolling lifebloom costs 780 mana for 9 seconds of ticks of 1.7k health(I assumed Glyph for Lifebloom, which is more than I assumed for Nourish, so I hope you see how generous to your case I was being). Nourish costs 550 mana and heals for 10k, 19.5k if crits (living seed makes our crits give 195% of non-crit). My druid unbuffed currently sits on 47% crit, with Moonkin Aura alone that goes over 50%, so I'll just assume 50% for sake of ease of numbers. So Nourish will average 14.75k whilst rolling lifeblooms will average 15.3k. That's 4% more healing for 42% more mana usage. I do wish you'd actually use mathematics to look at things before you stated them outright, instead of shoving your foot in your mouth.
A glance at the spreadsheet ( TreeCalcs: WrathCalcs, respecced ) shows Glyphed Lifebloom as having higher HPM than unglyphed Nourish with my current stats/talents (Note: a bug in the sheet makes the LBrolling HPM calcuation always assume the Glyph; I fixed it locally).
So use better mathematics for your snarky posts, I guess.
tell me what spell or healing class is better suited to do this than RJ and a druid. But it's clearly "pointless and stupid" for me to heal it with RJ . . .
Just to point out how dense you seem to be acting, a large chunk of damage followed by a small DoT (and it's a tiny tiny DoT) would be much better healed by a Regrowth or a Riptide than Rejuvenation. Please think about your spells more, it's so frustrating to read on here about druids just throwing RJ at everything.
p.s. if the nourishes were unnecessary, then they would not be effective healing and ergo, I wouldn't get 20%+ of my healing as nourish/SM. Please think about your posts, I'm getting really wound up about the lack of thought.
Originally Posted by Arawethion
A glance at the spreadsheet ( TreeCalcs: WrathCalcs, respecced ) shows Glyphed Lifebloom as having higher HPM than unglyphed Nourish with my current stats/talents (Note: a bug in the sheet makes the LBrolling HPM calcuation always assume the Glyph; I fixed it locally).
So use better mathematics for your snarky posts, I guess.
My napkin maths might be inaccurate, but it won't be that far out. There's no way that slight changes in healing amounts and spell power can make up for such a large difference as 40%.
EDIT: Just taking a cursory glance at your first spreadsheet from that page reveals you have stated that the cost of rolling lifebloom is 735. Considering Lifebloom costs 782 mana to cast (it says right above), I wonder how on earth you came up with that number.
Think about the basic reasons we like HoT's in the first place, as compared to doing all healing instantly.
1) Automatic healing of small damage. If a raid member takes damage from an RST ability, and they have a Rejuv on them, they get topped off while all the other healers are doing other things, without ever having to divert attention to that particular event.
2) Faster healing of medium damage. If a raid member takes significant damage and needs direct heals quickly to avoid a risk of death, the HoT a) does some healing before the direct heal arrives, and b) allows the direct healer to leave them short of full HP and go heal someone else more quickly.
3) Implicit AoE effect. When many raid members take damage at once (Ground Tremor/Black Hole Explosion), you want AoE heals. People love their AoE heals that cover 4 (Chain Heal) or 6 (Circle of Healing) targets, but they don't hold a candle to Rejuv. Rejuv heals up to 17 people simultaneously.
4) Easy healing of damage over time. A Rejuv significantly cancels out any DoT on the target, allowing them to take few or no direct heals and be less susceptible to a spike death for the duration.
5) Coverage of tank spikes. This is was the main driving force behind Lifebloom's dominance in TBC; it's much less of a factor currently, due to comparably weaker HoT's and Rejuv's slow tick rate compared to Lifebloom.
6) Swiftmend enablement. Don't forget about this--Rejuv provides a secondary effect to people who take sudden them by allowing us to use our instant heal on them.
I decided to take a look at Rj vs. Rg in a situation where you are pre-casting HoTs purely to reduce the impact of some upcoming OMG t10 raid-damage event. This concentrates on items (2),(3), and (6). Specifically
1) I only care about raid (non-tank) damage. There are 23 potential targets.
2) I don't know in advance when the OMG event will occur, or which raid members will be hit.
3) The OMG event consists of a big hit at time T and another big hit at time T+5s.
4) The "quality" of my pre-hot strategy is the average amount of healing received by each raid member during that 5-second gap from casts started before the event (or instants cast in the first 0.5s of the event where I haven't had time to react).
5) There is no "incidental" damage in the 15s before T that will "waste" a Living Seed. If your fight doesn't approximately meet this requirement, forget about Rg being a better pre-HoT than Rj.
I'm using numbers , unmodified, from TreeCalcs 09/10/23 3.3 (4T10, T10 trinket, Armory 3036 SP). Glyphs are Innervate, Swiftmend, and Wild Growth.
Rj Tick: 3156
WG Tick: 1095
Rg Non-crit: 6156
Rg crit rate: 52%
Rg Tick: 1606
Instant cast (non-NG/NG): 1.22s/1.1s
Rg cast (non-NG/NG): 1.55s/1.30s
Pre-HoT strategies
Rj-spam: Average raider gets 3195 healed during the 5s event.
WG(6)+Rj*4: Average raider gets 3815 healed during the 5s event.
Rg-spam: Average raider gets 3301 healed during the 5s event.
WG(6)+Rg*4: Average raider gets 3895 healed during the 5s event.
So considering only your actions before the event, the Rj strategies give you a few percent less healing (but cost about 150 less mana per second). The Rg numbers are bit optimistic, because the spreadsheet assumes 100% uptime from the T10 idol. You've got to cast at least some Rj to get that. Also the Rj healing is much more level. Anyone who gets any benefit gets 3.2-6.3k. For an Rg strategy, the benefit can range from 1.6k (several people) to 10k+ (one person).
The Rg strategies give you better options once the event occurs. Specifically, you will probably already have NG when the event occurs, and you will have more Swiftmend-ready targets. You are also slightly less likely to be GCD locked when the event occurs.
Shorter events will favor Rg strategies (magnify the impact of LS).
Sample calculations (Rg spam):
Chain cast Rg time (77% NG uptime): 1.36s
1 Raid member will receive a direct heal, from a cast started before T, but landing after T. They will receive a direct heal plus one Rg tick. (I only took the first 10k of crit+tick, no Living Seed). Average healed: 8934.
11.1 (=15/1.36) Raid members will have an Rg that is less than 15s old at T. They have 52% chance of having Living Seed (LS=2770). They will receive an average of 5/3 ticks healed. Averaged healed: 4128 each, 45669 total.
6.6 Raid members will have an Rg that is 15-24s old at T. They will receive an average of 5/3 ticks healed. Healed: 2677 each, 17772 total.
2.2 Raid members will have an Rg that is 24-27s old at the time of the event. They will receive one tick. Healed: 1606 each, 3554 total.
Total healed: 75930. Average over 23 raid members: 3301.
My napkin maths might be inaccurate, but it won't be that far out. There's no way that slight changes in healing amounts and spell power can make up for such a large difference as 40%.
EDIT: Just taking a cursory glance at your first spreadsheet from that page reveals you have stated that the cost of rolling lifebloom is 735. Considering Lifebloom costs 782 mana to cast (it says right above), I wonder how on earth you came up with that number.
Your numbers are "that far off," unless you find an error in the sheet.
"Net cost" for all spells includes mean Clearcasting return. Not that significant analytically; it affects all spells equally except for unrolled LB (and it's a very big boots to unrolled LB).
Your numbers are "that far off," unless you find an error in the sheet.
"Net cost" for all spells includes mean Clearcasting return. Not that significant analytically; it affects all spells equally except for unrolled LB (and it's a very big boots to unrolled LB).
Here's one for you, changing the spell haste to 500 for a Nourish cast displays the cast time as 1.1 with NG, where
as in fact it would be under 1.03. If it's for latency, you forgot to take into account the fact that you can queue spells that have over 1second cast time, so your HP/S is off.
Secondly, your Nourish calculations don't take into account a 20% boost to healing for the fact that a HoT will be on the target. That might be what is causing the problem with your numbers. (You added the 20% after figuring out HP/M, from what I can tell, though no where on your spreadsheet do you state HPM of any thing)
Finally, your lifebloom amount is grossly overestimated. I entered in my spell power amounts and it thinks my lifebloom ticks for 730 per stack. It's not even close to this amount, are you sure you readjusted all the numbers to take into account 3.2.2's nerf to lifebloom coefficients? (or was it 3.2? it was recent)
EDIT: I decided to test it, so I took all the buffs out of your spreadsheet and put in my exact spell power (2915) without flask or tree form then I cast lifebloom on myself: 444 per tick. I looked at your spreadsheet and it suggests I do 545 per tick. Again, my Napkin maths might be inaccurate, but it won't make up the difference.
EDIT2: I missed some buffs before, got it down as low as 482, but still not the 444 that is in the game. I checked patch notes I could find and they only talk about the bloom effect being changed.
Here's one for you, changing the spell haste to 500 for a Nourish cast displays the cast time as 1.1 with NG, where
as in fact it would be under 1.03. If it's for latency, you forgot to take into account the fact that you can queue spells that have over 1second cast time, so your HP/S is off.
Secondly, your Nourish calculations don't take into account a 20% boost to healing for the fact that a HoT will be on the target. That might be what is causing the problem with your numbers. (You added the 20% after figuring out HP/M, from what I can tell, though no where on your spreadsheet do you state HPM of any thing)
Finally, your lifebloom amount is grossly overestimated. I entered in my spell power amounts and it thinks my lifebloom ticks for 730 per stack. It's not even close to this amount, are you sure you readjusted all the numbers to take into account 3.2.2's nerf to lifebloom coefficients? (or was it 3.2? it was recent)
1) It uses the same cast-time model as the Moonkin spreadsheet, which is open for some debate. Latency and timing delays can be specified on the first page if you want to adjust up or down or set them to 0. Doesn't affect HPM calculations.
2) Page 2 of the sheet.
3) I'll recheck lifebloom coefficients in-game when servers come up. May be wrong if there was a change as recently as 3.2.2; I don't remember when I put them in. Regardless, not wrong enough to change the original point.
I decided to take a look at Rj vs. Rg in a situation where you are pre-casting HoTs purely to reduce the impact of some upcoming OMG t10 raid-damage event. This concentrates on items (2),(3), and (6).
Thanks for doing this. It confirms my intuition that the direct healing portion (+ living seed) is not an insignificant source of HPS for Regrowth, even though it has a far weaker hot than Rejuv. Another thing to keep in mind is you did not use the Regrowth glyph, which would push Regrowth HPS in your calculations up by at least 10% and probably more with intelligent use.
It might also be interesting to model Regrowth vs Rejuv HPM in a continuous aura damage tick situation like Sapphiron, Hodir, or Twins. My back of the napkin calculations show them pretty close, actually, with Regrowth having better spread.
3) I'll recheck lifebloom coefficients in-game when servers come up. May be wrong if there was a change as recently as 3.2.2; I don't remember when I put them in. Regardless, not wrong enough to change the original point.
I checked Nourish as well. It's not overestimating Nourish, so I can only conclude that the spreadsheet is working fine for the comparison of HPMs with the exception of the lifebloom portion. I edited the number for lifebloom to the number I got in game and it shows the HPM as under that of Nourish. Though still not close to the difference in HPM my napkin maths said. (It seems I may have grossly overestimated what Nourish heals for)
Either way, the point in my post was to suggest that rolling lifebloom is not a good idea, and your spreadsheet shows that well. Slowstacking is almost 3 times the hp/m that rolling and throwing a Nourish onto that slow stack is (about) as mana efficient as rolling was in the first place, with a huge kick to hp/s, the ability to let the stack fall without too much downside and finally to time your Nourish cast to when a spike of damage happens.
Originally Posted by Arythorn
I'm glad it works for you. Stop insisting it's the only way that will work for others.
This is the exact opposite of what I'm trying to get across. This whole board is spammed with "use RJ to fix it" and whilst yes, RJ is always 30-60% of my total healing done, it is not the only spell in our repertoire. If you trace back the posts, you'll find that I didn't say it should always be 20%, I said that there are cases where it should be and Fallenangel was the one making sweeping statements about the fact that it should never be (though I think he said "nearly ever" with a negative in front of it). I do not make such generalisations and if you weren't so bothered about the tone of my statements (they're written! how can they have a tone!) and more bothered about the content in them maybe you would have realised this and not made me repeat it.
p.s. I am very aware of me coming across as arrogant and whilst I seek to remedy this in most places, I would have thought someone who frequented a board called "Elitist Jerks" would expect such a thing.
I checked on live, all the Lifebloom coefficients are accurate. Yes, Lifebloom is expensive when you roll it. But don't get all blustery about mathematical arguments when you haven't done your homework.
Regrowth:
The numbers are nice to see, although I think practical considerations will undermine it somewhat.
--The uneven spread of a healing scheme that relies heavily on leftover Living Seeds is a problem. The goal isn't raw HPS output, it's mitigating risk of death. If the big raidwide AoE is truly the only damage, then maybe you can ignore this. But in a situation where there's any other single-target danger that combines with the big hit to kill people (think Freya, Algalon), you don't want to leave random raid members sitting low. I doubt that we're going to see much heavy raid damage with absolutely no other threat that requires to you get people up quickly before the next cast.
--Nor am I convinced on continuous aura damage like Twins. I think the uneven nature of Regrowth is still a problem in practice. Even if you do it perfectly, you're letting people get lower in order to make use of the Regrowth, and that's simply worse. I keep saying, chance of death matters a lot more than healing meters. If you let someone get low enough at Twins that a crit RG+LS is going to be fully effective, then they'll eat one ball and die. And doing it perfectly is a tall order that requires a lot of attention, which is a nonnegligible downside.
I can see myself using Rapid Rejuvenation glyph on one fight. Jaraxxus. BUT then I ask myself, do I really NEED to use this glyph here? Our other healers do fine. If a player dies to damage before my rejuvenation ticked or if it didn't get an extra tick, then that player did something wrong, or no other healer stepped up.
If you have 3 or more Trees in the raid, this glyph will be great. 5->1 rotation will work great, while covering 2 groups for each druid. I usually have our third druid cover one group, and Regrowth/LB the tanks. But the likely hood of having 3 trees is mediocre at best. 2 do well at the job of blanketing/buffering the raid/tanks. Our days of glory in Ulduar are over.
We were to Ulduar as Shaman's were to Sunwell. ToC seemed to be "The rise of the Holy Pally". I only have a feeling that ICC is going to be once again, "How many restoration shamans do you have?" I think we will use this glyph more than you would know in Icecrown, but like spec's for each fight, it is just going to be something we have to rotate in and out of each encounter.
On a HOLYREJUVEBATMAN note: How about an 856 Haste capped, Nature's Graced, Bloodlusted Rapid Glyphed Rejuvenation?
Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity.
Just to point out how dense you seem to be acting, a large chunk of damage followed by a small DoT (and it's a tiny tiny DoT) would be much better healed by a Regrowth or a Riptide than Rejuvenation. Please think about your spells more, it's so frustrating to read on here about druids just throwing RJ at everything.
Haven't touched heroic Beasts since Tuesday of last week, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the DoT from the Snobolds' fire bombs ticks for around 2k per stack(I know I've seen 4k ticks, but I believe those are due to slow reaction time on moving out of the fire). Assuming that's accurate, I don't think the Regrowth HoT would cover that, it's too weak for the damage being done. The target would need a direct heal such like Nourish before the DoT would fall off. Regrowth with a Nourish a few seconds later feels inefficient to me. Rejuvenation counters the damage from the DoT perfectly, and a Lifebloom bloom will top up the initial burst later. If the target gets bombed again, and is now suffering from a 2 stack, then I'll toss a regrowth.
It's not about throwing Rejuvenation on everything, it's about using the best spell for the damage. Not to mention a Regrowth plus a later Nourish takes a combined 2.25-2.5 seconds, depending on haste, costs significantly more mana than a Rejuv/LB, and requires keeping an eye on that target. A Rejuv/LB combo is done in 2 global cooldowns, costs less mana(after the bloom) and is a "fire and forget" mechanism.
Just my opinion, of course, everyone's play style differs. As long as the raid stays alive and the boss dies, it works.
Just to point out how dense you seem to be acting, a large chunk of damage followed by a small DoT (and it's a tiny tiny DoT) would be much better healed by a Regrowth or a Riptide than Rejuvenation. Please think about your spells more, it's so frustrating to read on here about druids just throwing RJ at everything.
p.s. if the nourishes were unnecessary, then they would not be effective healing and ergo, I wouldn't get 20%+ of my healing as nourish/SM. Please think about your posts, I'm getting really wound up about the lack of thought.
First off, the size of the DoT is dependent on the amount of time the person stays in the fire (it does stack). Take a look at a damage log and you will see that the resulting ticks are 2-3x the initial damage of that spell:
A stronger ticking hot is better suited imho. Also, center icon on Grid pops up with the bomb debuff and I have an RJ down on it in fractions. I can then either let it be if the person has no latency (or tunnel vision issues) and gets out of the fire. No risk no worries and I've taken 1 second of my available time. If they have latency or tunnel vision issues, I can either Swiftmend or Nourish them to get them safer and then let RJ finish dealing with the heavy tick (heavy because it stacked on them). Either way, RJ works fine for a quick initial hit and is very often all that is needed. Throwing a longer cast time of RG at it would usually be wasteful in both mana and time spent. I'm not being dense, just being efficient.
As to Nourishes being unnecessary, my comment did not express a lack of thought. Somehow, even though I stated it just about every time I talked about Nourish, you missed all of the comments to the effect of it had alot to do with the heal team context that Nourish is cast in and that your extrapolation of your experience to everyone else's experience could be the issue. I never said it wasn't right for you and your team. I definitely said it wasn't right for me and my team. I'm pretty sure in my setup, I could spam Nourish all day on the tanks during NRB phase 1 and I wouldn't be able to fit that much effective healing in edgewise. So, it's not lack of thought, it's you misunderstanding the post (which I think was pretty clear honestly). Anyway, healing is a group effort and it should be easy enough to acknowledge that a different team would require you to use perhaps different skills. So get wound up about it -- it could be we're being dense . . . or it could be you're being stubborn.
It gives you 10% haste and reduces the base global cooldown when casting lifebloom by 10%.
So the global cooldown is (click the image since [latex] tags are currently broken.)
Where b is the base or 1.5, r is reduction so 0.1 in lifeblooms case and 0 otherwise. g is gear haste and m_n are all the haste mods such as 1.10 from GotEM, 1.03 from aura and 1.05 from totem.
This leads to needing 13,5% gear haste to hit 1s GCD when casting lifebloom and 26,1% in all other cases.
Why hit food is bad
"You have to spend 10 seconds to apply it, you have to fish it and you cant use the feast."
We were to Ulduar as Shaman's were to Sunwell. ToC seemed to be "The rise of the Holy Pally". I only have a feeling that ICC is going to be once again, "How many restoration shamans do you have?"
I agree with this, and in fact GC said outright in one of the panel forums at blizzcon that they intend to make shamans the primary raid healers, at least by the time Cataclysm comes out. Here's the quote: "5:38PM Resto Shaman asking about direction of Chain Heal change. GC says they still want Shaman to be great AE healers, and they let Priests and Druids butt in too much. Might even buff Chain Heal more.". From BlizzCon 2009: Class, Items, and Professions Panel Live Blog
These concerned are really unfounded. Holy paladins were majorly buffed in 3.2 and their healing style fits the ToC fights so they sure look better than ijn Ulduar.
There are no major class changes that I saw for 3.3 though. In fact the only healer class that saw buffs is...druids. Slice it any way you want, the new GotEM is a buff to ICC-druids. The rapid rejuv glyph also has the potential to greatly enhance our healing in certain fights.
There's no need to spread FUD without any reasoning.
I never said I was concerned, and I believe I only posted information, not FUD. Even if resto shamans become OP raid healers, there will still always be a place for the trees...
Every healing class has it's strengths. Ours is HoT's. Anything that makes a HoT closer to other classes skills, like hasted HoT's, I consider a bad modification. Lust over more powerful Rejuv's, if you want, but the healing will be balanced in the end. I'd like to see and would recommend just the opposite. Allow us to lengthen our HoT's, not shorten them. If I wanted instants, I'd roll some other class. I rolled a druid for HoT's, HoT's and more HoT's.
10/27/09, 12:45 AM
