Rather than taunting, I find simply throwing roots on them helps quite a bit. The roots break quick, but it usually gives someone the extra moment they need.
Is the rapid rejuv glyph that much better healing (focusing solely on 10 man content) that it's a "must have?"
When there is no reason to keep Rejuvenation on all 10 people in the raid continuously, then I believe the glyph is worth it. The Wild Growth glyph isn't that useful for 10 man, so you are not giving much up to take it. I would not say it is a "must have" though, and (same as in 25 man) it is probably best used situationally. It truly shines during the Saurfang encounter where there should really not be more than 5 (2 Tanks, 2 Marks, 1 Boiling Blood) people simultaneously needing any healing.
Originally Posted by rdycheck
I find simply throwing roots on them helps quite a bit.
Rooting is great, UNLESS you root a beast right next to someone. Common sense, I guess.
(10 Man Specific) We 2 heal this, and I am assigned to root one of the beasts while the range kill the other. There is really not a lot to do before the first Mark comes, and even then, just rolling hots on everyone that needs it leaves us with enough time to throw roots out when the beasts initially spawn. This does keep me out of tree-form, but that's not a big deal.
I'm not a fan of using the Wild Growth glyph for the current content. It's great on Twins, but it's really underwhelming on the other ToGC fights and all of the ICC fights so far. I think you really have to judge glyphs based on how they apply to the fights you're doing instead of considering a specific combination of three to be the best for everything.
i just want to touch on the T10. I feel the 2 set might be effective, in certian situations. The 4 set maybe be a life saver, assuming it procs...and goes to the right person. Im thinking ill stick with t9 until the stat gains from t10 out weigh my t9 bonus.. which probably wont be until the heroic tier.
Does anyone see this tier as an imediate upgrade, or do you feel like we kinda got boned compared to T9? Perhaps im missing something.
I've alrdy bought the gloves since I need haste and got a token. I likely will keep buying t10 as I get tokens as 264>245 by a steep margin. I haven't seen any commentary on how the bonus works... prolly cause noone has 4pc yet I guess. In theory now. from remembering my perusals of recount, I average about 1 crit per rejuv cast. I just tested for like 10 minutes on some trash and had a 16% crit, which = 96% chance to get 1 crit per rejuv. With no raid buffs, reg tic was 2764, crit was 4146. Which = 1382 extra healing per rejuv, or exactly an extra half a tic per cast. 4 pc t10, every 50 rejuv tics, or 8.3 rejuvs, you get a free rejuv, or an extra 6 tics.
So. An extra 6 tics from 8.3 rejuvs, or an extra 4 tics from 8 rejuvs? Not to mention the inflated stats on t10... I think its being undervalued. Obviously thats assuming it works like the tool tip says, and doesn't wipe the original rejuv. Which is how I would assume it'll work. In toc for a rejuv spammer crit was worth stacking (gear wise not gems obviously) and obviously that bonus scales, but now that we need a good amount of haste again, t9 is kinda poopy. Thoughts?
1) It's a smart jump that can only target raid members which don't have Rejuvenation on them already and does not consume the Rejvenation on the origin. Best case scenario, the bonus will be ridiculously awesome and 4t10 will be certainly better than 4t9, even the 245->251 jump will be worth it.
2) It's not a smart jump, it will just randomly targeting anyone and just overwrite an already existing Rejuvenation while not consuming the one on the origin. Will cut the value of the set bonus by about 25%: Assuming 50% raid coverage with Rejuvenation there is a 50% chance to overwrite an existing one. On average that exsisting one has 50% of it's duration left, "killing" an average of 0.5*0.5 = 0.25 of Rejuvenation we already had on the raid each jump. It should still be better than 4t9 with all the stat gains at ilvl 264, the upgrade from 245->251 however might not be worth it.
3) It's a smart jump, targeting only raid members without Rejuvenation but it does consume the spell on the origin. Cuts the value from the best case scenario basically in half. Keeping 4t9 might very well be worth it for quite a while.
4) It is not a smart jump, randomly targeting anyone no matter if he has Rejuvenation already or not and it will consume the original Rejuvenation. Worst case scenario. The set bonus would be pretty much useless.
Part of the problem with T10 is that the bonuses are static. The 5% crit to nourish that 2T9 gives is nothing special, but it will continue to scale with your spellpower; Whereas the bonus 2T10 gives to Wild Growth doesn't scale at all. Similarly, the 4T9 bonus scales with crit in addition to spellpower, where as the 4T10 is just a flat 2% chance for another rejuvenation.
But the difference between 4T9 and 4T10 is the important one, and the one that deserves further discussion.
4T9 increases your total healing done by rejuvenation by half of your crit rate. At the 20 to 25% raid buffed crit that many druids will have at this level of gear, 4T9 appears provide more of an increase than 4T10 could. The contention is the 4T9 also increases your overhealing, because the bonus healing it gives is 'focused' on the player who has the rejuvenation on them, and unless they are a tank, this extra healing may very well be wasted.
However, that doesn't mean 4T10 is necessarily any better. In order for the 'jump' healing to be effective, there much be another player in your raid who is taking damage, but doesn't have rejuvenation on them already. It's easily possible for a druid to roll rejuvenation on the entirety of a 5 man group, or a 10 man raid- completely negating the bonus! This is the part I don't see other people considering, there is theorycrafting on the proc rates, but where does the new rejuv go when it jumps? It can't be 100% effective healing.
To answer this question, I wrote a program to simulate a 25 man raid. This a a simulation of a 10-minute encounter with heavy raid damage, like Twin Valkyrs, the ideal sort of fight for rejuv rolling, where both 4T9 and 4T10 should be effective. Our Tree Druid has, raid buffed, 4000 Healing, 50% Haste, 25% Crit, and 0 lag. These stats are used for all three trials, not considering the extra spellpower T10 has, to show the difference between the set bonuses. The 4T10 bonus, when proccing, was modeled as consuming the proccing rejuv when it procced, as it was reported to do on the PTR.
With No Set Bonus:
Average Healing Done: 11,497,202
Max Healing in one trial: 11,625,493
Average Overhealing Done: 1,102,577
Max Overhealing in one trial: 1,251,671
With 4T9:
Average Healing Done: 12,726,996 (11% increase)
Max Healing in one trial: 12,948,034 (11% increase)
Average Overhealing Done: 1,449,286 (31% increase)
Max Overhealing in one trial: 1,646,759 (32% increase)
4T9 should have increased our healing by 12.5%, half of our crit chance, but some of the bonus was wasted, as additional overhealing.
With 4T10:
Average Healing Done: 11,197,203 (3% loss)
Max Healing in one trial: 11,417,410 (2% loss)
Average Overhealing Done: 1,072,375 (3% decrease)
Max Overhealing in one trial: 1,226,046 (2% decrease)
4T10 reduced our total healing done! How is this possible? Even in a 25 man raid, there aren't enough free 'targets' for the rejuvenation to jump on to when it procs, to make up for the loss of the rejuvenation on the target it jumps off of, the losses occur when rejuvenations are overwritten.
Worst case scenario, you have two characters, A and B. You cast rejuv on A, then one GCD later, cast rejuv on B. The first tick of rejuv on A happens to proc, and it jumps to B, refreshing B's rejuv. You've just lost the remaining 5 ticks of rejuv on A, without adding any to B. Worse still, you've delayed the time before B gets any healing at all for 2 additional seconds, until the first tick of their new rejuv.
Even if the procced rejuvenation is a 'smart jump' only on to targets who don't already have rejuvenation, there's nothing preventing it from jumping onto a target right before you cast your rejuvenation on them, unwittingly overwriting the proc.
This is only considering raid healing as well, I can hardly imagine how someone who tank heal with rejuv + nourish would feel about their rejuv jumping off the tank to go heal someone else.
Ultimately though, no one has enough emblems to test it live, so we'll just have to wait and see how it measures up in a real raid. I'm saving up my emblems anyway, in the hope that my analysis is wrong, or that it gets changed in some way.
The only interesting case is the on where it doesn't consume the Rejuv when it procs--I think everyone agrees the set is unusable if it does. May as well model the good case. What's the incoming damage pattern for your simulation?
I suppose that's true, I just didn't want to be overoptimistic before we see it live.
The incoming damage is modeled in a very simple way, everyone in the raid takes damage, several people take additional damage, then several people get healed (by other healers). It's not terribly sophisticated, or especially realistic, only designed to look at rolling hots.
4T10, original rejuv not consumed:
Average Healing Done: 12,268,832 (7% increase)
Max Healing in one trial: 12,684,645 (9% increase)
Average Overhealing Done: 1,175,255 (7% increase)
Max Overhealing in one trial: 1,343,936 (7% increase)
Much more favorable than before, though still behind 4T9. Perhaps I'll have to look at exactly how much SP is gained going from T9 -> T10 and see if it balances out that way..
I really can't imagine blizzard having their last major raid's tier, not just suck, but actually reduce healing done.... and like you said, jumping off of tanks? no druids would use it all, which would get some designers fired, and they'd fix it. I'll put dollars to doughnuts that worst case scenario, 264 4pc will be worth more then 245 4pc. I think chances are high that 251 4 pc will be worth more, depending on ur usage of nourish since the wg 2pc kinda sucks. And btw, t10 4 pc might not scale with crit, but obviously it scales with spell power. So you can't say it doesn't scale. Also, your simulations were assuming the level of crit we had BEFORE we had to stack to 732/856 haste. Its currently unrealistic which is a substantial nerf to the calue of t9. My crit has gone from 25% to 16% for instance which will nearly half the value of t9
Hmm, why would overhealing done only have gone up by 7%? The 4T10 should increase total raw healing by 13.6%. If the main idea we're exploring here is that the procs are less effective than the initially cast heals, so the actual effective healing increase is lower than that, then the overhealing should be correspondingly higher (as with the 4T9).
Also, the effective healing ratio in those trials is extremely high (~90%). Here's an example of HoT spam in heavy raid damage: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Also, your simulations were assuming the level of crit we had BEFORE we had to stack to 732/856 haste. Its currently unrealistic which is a substantial nerf to the calue of t9. My crit has gone from 25% to 16% for instance which will nearly half the value of t9
True, however, with ICC gear, which is where T10 will really matter, levels of both crit and haste will go up. In particular, there seems to be more gear with both crit and haste on it than we saw before.
@Arawethion
Regarding the overhealing, I was originally looking only at the total healing done. After my first trials I considered than T9 would naturally have more overhealing due to larger heals, so added that in to get more accurate values. I'll try reducing the damage and see what happens.
4T10 could increase the total healing done, if it had a separate pool of targets to choose from. Losses occur when it overwrites one of your rejuvs, or you overwrite one of the procs. The way the 'rolling' model works is, it picks the next target who doesn't have rejuv on them, then active rejuvs are given a chance to tick, possibly proccing 4T10, and then the caster casts rejuv on the target they previously picked, even if a proc rejuv already jumped to it. This is to emulate lag and reaction time giving the possibility of a player unintentionally overwriting a proc.
If we don't use Rapid Rejuvenation, then, if all the stars align, you can actually end up in the situation where you have a GCD for casting Rejuv, but everyone in the raid already has Rejuv on them. This happened in about 2% of the simulated fights, only when Rejuv isn't consumed by the proc of course.
The less damage there is, but still raid-wide, the better 4T10 becomes, because the extra healing is spread onto other targets. If the damage is not raid-wide, then 4T10 becomes worse, as the spread healing is wasted, but that's pretty obvious I guess.
Less, Raid-Wide Damage:
With No Set Bonus:
Average Healing Done: 9,676,298
Max Healing in one trial: 10,333,180
Average Overhealing Done: 2,923,679 (30% overhealing)
Max Overhealing in one trial: 3,663,864 (35% overhealing)
With 4T9:
Average Healing Done: 10,409,002 (8% increase)
Max Healing in one trial: 11,223,264 (9% increase)
Average Overhealing Done: 3,765,912 (29% increase)
Max Overhealing in one trial: 4,799,468 (31% increase)
With 4T10, original rejuv not consumed:
Average Healing Done: 10,332,680 (6% increase)
Max Healing in one trial: 11,156,428 (7% increase)
Average Overhealing Done: 3,116,488 (7% increase)
Max Overhealing in one trial: 3,932,424 (7% increase)
Less, Non-Raid-Wide Damage:
With No Set Bonus:
Average Healing Done: 9,361,997
Max Healing in one trial: 9,763,144
Average Overhealing Done: 3,237,855 (35% overhealing)
Max Overhealing in one trial: 3,685,072 (38% overhealing)
With 4T9:
Average Healing Done: 10,074,599 (8% increase)
Max Healing in one trial: 10,538,957 (8% increase)
Average Overhealing Done: 4,102,398 (27% increase)
Max Overhealing in one trial: 4,532,054 (23% increase)
With 4T10, original rejuv not consumed:
Average Healing Done: 9,684,056 (3% increase)
Max Healing in one trial: 10,099,532 (3% increase)
Average Overhealing Done: 4,019,703 (24% increase)
Max Overhealing in one trial: 4,606,174 (25% increase)
Hmm, why would overhealing done only have gone up by 7%? The 4T10 should increase total raw healing by 13.6%. If the main idea we're exploring here is that the procs are less effective than the initially cast heals, so the actual effective healing increase is lower than that, then the overhealing should be correspondingly higher (as with the 4T9).
I believe the set bonus can lose efficiency from overwriting. Assuming you have rapid rejuv with high haste and are using 100% rejuv, about 60% of the raid does not have your rejuv on it. The other 40% loses ticks from overwriting, bringing the bonus down to ~10.3% instead of 13.6%. If you're not using rapid rejuv, it drops further. Now, it could preferentially choose someone without a rejuv. Perhaps we can get another blue post on that.
I'm still really surprised when you look at T9 4set in raid context. Your average RJ crits were only ~23% higher with a 25.1% crit rate. So the 4set was worth only ~5.8% RJ throughput on our most favorable fight?
EDIT: Sorry, just saw the other thread. We really need to combine these...
No we don't actually the opening post is quite clear but it seems people are unable to read even the thread titles for a vague idea of what to post in them.
"Things this thread is not for:
/snip/
* Asking about item choices or mechanics (go to Resto Itemization instead)."
By todays standards this thread should be for the discussion of healing in Icecrown (due to the limited access right now there is not much I know) between different healing styles and techniques for the bosses within. It should also be there for the debate between going to CF to compensate for a lack of haste and the trade offs for doing so.
The itemization thread should be for discussing 2T10 and 4T10, the discussion between T10 and T9 bonuses and how to achieve the desired levels of haste with either setup.
Putricide: Malleable Goo affects Rejuv if you have the Rapid Glyph on, but does not if you aren't using it. However, it's a slow missle that you can move out of to completely avoid (like Shadow Crash damage). Just a heads up.
We faced 3 bosses last night, 2 new and 1 old in the plague wing. Festergut and Rotface were fairly easy. The Lag boss was killer. New content, populated server, should have expected. Rotface was fairly easy to do with lag. Healing wise... I didn't do much as there was little damage going out. The OT tanking adds sometimes got caught in ooze, but our priests are quick on their CD's to wings/PS him. Pretty simple tank and spank, which was expected.
Festergut posed our biggest problem. I took this fight with a simple 5x1 healing style. There were 2 ranged groups, and the healers. I 5 x rejuvenated the ranged, and WG the melee. It worked really well, as you can still HoT on the run to/from spores. a WG on your ranged group after the spore is a good idea, but the damage was laughable. If you have 2 stacks, you CAN survive, but 3 is recommended. Barkskin during the explosion thing he does is nice, along with shadow aura mastery. It is a DPS race, and after the 2nd explosion, you don't have to worry about getting spores. The tanks get trucked hard after the first spore, so PS/Wings/cool downs are recommended.
We pulled Putricide once, but quickly found out that lag would get the best of us. Seemed easy to heal so far, after 3 minutes of engagement. We also pulled to Putricide but didn't attempt him in 10m. We were tired, and already being dumb on the previous bosses. 3AM raiding is FTL.
I didn't feel a difficulty increase in this wing compared to the first 4 bosses. Without lag, 1 wipe to each boss seems fair.
Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity.
Festergut posed our biggest problem. I took this fight with a simple 5x1 healing style.
The thing I liked about healing Festergut was the different healing style necessary for the different damage phases. I 2-healed 10-man with a Disc Priest. At the start of the fight, a 5x1 approach was perfect for the heavy raid damage. After the first inhale, I switched to 10 Rejuvs and a Regrowth on the tank rotation since the raid damage dies down and tank damage picks up. After the 2nd inhale, Wild Growth on our melee/healer stack + Prayer of Mending bouncing out to the ranged was enough for the raid, while I kept Rejuv, Regrowth, Lifebloom, and Nourish spam on the tank. Before the eruption comes, have the tank use some cooldowns and begin to re-hot the raid in preparation to return to 5x1.
I'm curious if anyone else had an issue with Healing Aggro on the big slimes in their groups. As a Tree I was okay for the most part, but our Holydin was just constantly pulling the big slime off our OT. We had some failing with slime management which probably didn't help but the threat just seemed out of place. It was like Saurfang/Anub all over again.
I missed Festergut on our 25man kill but 10s really did seem to be a joke somewhat with the extra space to move around in. Kaeya, you mentioned two ranged groups for your 25s I take it you're splitting your healers up equally between that as well. Do you find you have enough range to get to the group on the far side of Festergut? Or were you guys doing more of a SE/SW type split as opposed to a N/S type.
Ranged DPS is a far better kiter than an OT due to far better threat - hunter, aff lock, spriest - someone who can keep on the move. Otherwise your healers will out aggro it. There is no reason to 2 tank the fight since you do not want anyone to be "off-tanking" the big slimes anyhow.
<Nite_Moogle> i miss raiding with carebare :< she makes me feel like i am not the only person that hates everyone
Aldriana: I am an asshole, it just so happens that some of my colleagues are even *bigger* assholes.
[R] [85:Neux:2]: i hear if you die on Good Friday they are going to make it where you can't get rezzed until easter sunday
Khazal: Yeah, I don't know about Magic Rainbow Unicorn Land, but here in Reality, Rhyolith is the worst encounter Blizzard has ever designed.
On that note, I don't see why so many people leave off the 3rd point in Subtlety. What's so important about Tranquil Spirit? Subtlety doesn't come up that often, but there's no serious talent competing for those points, so you should just have it for when it turns out to matter. I feel like Anub should have made this pretty clear.
I didn't always spec it (or fully spec it) for Anub because Scorned would flip his vigilance from manly (who has it during AOE) to me on the run in. A lot of times not having subtlety (or having less subtlety than any other tree present) is just as good as having it if you are using lack of it to your advantage. The most conventional example was Algalon, but the principle applies anywhere you'd like to take advantage of it.
<Nite_Moogle> i miss raiding with carebare :< she makes me feel like i am not the only person that hates everyone
Aldriana: I am an asshole, it just so happens that some of my colleagues are even *bigger* assholes.
[R] [85:Neux:2]: i hear if you die on Good Friday they are going to make it where you can't get rezzed until easter sunday
Khazal: Yeah, I don't know about Magic Rainbow Unicorn Land, but here in Reality, Rhyolith is the worst encounter Blizzard has ever designed.
There are definitely times when you don't want it. Algalon is a good one (although lots of people didn't handle Constellations that way), and trying to maximize Vigilance is maybe another (though I'm skeptical--I'd probably rather just have the reduced chance of being gibbed). But for general use, there's no particular reason not to have it. And I was mostly responding to prior poster, who only has 2/3 Subtlety and is complaining about getting threat.
I used to avoid subtlety as well. Since 3D Sarth, I found it a godsend. I didn't spec out of it for algalon, but my guild didn't have a problem with Algalon (we formed it just a few weeks before 3.2) as we out geared the encounter when we got there.
If you are a vigilance bot, then I can also see not taking it. 2% reduced mana on Nourish seems lackluster for a resto druid. Aggro issues are a big deal on any fight with adds. Big oozes, Yogg adds, Anub'Arak, Blood Beasts, Gunship, Deathwhisper, etc.
Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity.
12/31/09, 11:44 AM
