Resto (PvE) Healing Discussion - Page 97

Orlok3105 · 06/08/09, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Rijndael

Cat lady, incidentally, is one of the places where having a decent fast heal like glyphed healing touch is handy because people can get unlucky and die to the defender.

Swiftmend? Nourish? I don't understand reasoning behind spending glyph slot and up to 7 talent points to get castrated Nourish in the end.
Also best thing to avoid "people being unlucky" is to keep HoT's on them.

Cathiecj · 06/08/09, 2:09 PM

Originally Posted by temptedangel

Yes I am aware that in the overall duration it heals for alot more but how often do your hots get to heal to thier full potential?

Since 3.1 my overheal's have increased. I used to be around 16% OH now I'm usually at 25%. I've noticed that the other healers are overwriting my HoT's when it's not needed. Granted sometimes it is important to overwrite a HoT with a big instant, and sometimes both they and I don't realize I have a HoT on the target. Any suggestions on what I can do to reduce my OH? Has anyone else experienced the increase in OH since 3.1?

Rijndael · 06/08/09, 2:15 PM

Originally Posted by Orlok3105

Swiftmend? Nourish? I don't understand reasoning behind spending glyph slot and up to 7 talent points to get castrated Nourish in the end.
Also best thing to avoid "people being unlucky" is to keep HoT's on them.

You may want to read earlier in the Restoration Glyphs thread. Glyphed healing touch is not a castrated nourish if used as a raid heal. Nourish has a very bad innate coefficient compared to Flash Heal or LHW -- it is balanced to be as effective as those heals with a hot on the target. GHT does not require pre-conditions, scales as well as LHW and has the same haste as a Tidal Waved LHW innately. HOTs are great but they will not save people from unlucky burst events, like repeated attention from a feral defender.

Jurik · 06/08/09, 2:19 PM

Originally Posted by Cathiecj

Since 3.1 my overheal's have increased. I used to be around 16% OH now I'm usually at 25%. I've noticed that the other healers are overwriting my HoT's when it's not needed. Granted sometimes it is important to overwrite a HoT with a big instant, and sometimes both they and I don't realize I have a HoT on the target. Any suggestions on what I can do to reduce my OH? Has anyone else experienced the increase in OH since 3.1?

Your increased overheal is likely due to the new blooming mechanic of lifebloom. Aside from relying less on Lifebloom, there's not much you can do to mitigate this.

Ezarg · 06/08/09, 2:49 PM

Originally Posted by Orlok3105

Swiftmend? Nourish? I don't understand reasoning behind spending glyph slot and up to 7 talent points to get castrated Nourish in the end.
Also best thing to avoid "people being unlucky" is to keep HoT's on them.

AGAIN?

GHT is not an "alternative" to Nourish. It's not like having GHT means you'll never cast Nourish. You need to quickly heal a person that doesn't have a hot on them? -> GHT. You need to quickly heal a person that does have a hot on them? -> Nourish/Swiftmend.

Unless, of course, you don't have the glyph of healing touch, in which case you're stuck with Nourish whether you like it or not.

If you have a dedicated "pick-em-up" healer (most likely a disc priest) then the whole GHT vs. Nourish discussion is absolutely moot because you'll never use either for raid healing, and I think we're all in agreement what's good for tank healing.

intrepidos · 06/08/09, 4:05 PM

Originally Posted by temptedangel

@ Cuddlekin Down to 1909 Spirit Raid Buffed (Changed some gems and enchants)
-Is 1900 Spirit really THAT much?
-Healing Power is >2200 Raid Buffed with flasks and what not (NOT including shammy totem), and Ive yet to see a significant differnce in heals (PER A HOT TICK) compared to druids who stack spell power, Yes I am aware that in the overall duration it heals for alot more but how often do your hots get to heal to thier full potental?
-And I get that Meta because my spell power is low therefore my heals/crit dont heal for as much, I havent been able to test it but I hope that helps me close the gap on what my nourish crits could be healing for if I stacked spell power....

Any Opinions and criticism would be nice!

@All Above Responses
-Lol I got more responses on how people pull the boss then if my healing strat was statisfactory, If I wanted help on that I'd post that in a differnt form xD

I think that's a lot of spirit. To me it seems unneeded. I run with 1106 spirit and 2415sp in tree unbuffed. I'm stacking spellpower and rarely ever have mana issues. I'm able to give my innervate to someone else, I keep full hots on the tanks at all times. I wild growth practically on cooldown for most fights and i use lifebloom inbetween WGs. I don't have 4pc t8 though, but if I did, I'd try out using rejuv in place of lifebloom on the raid (insta rejuv tick must be nice). As for Nourish, I don't have it glyphed, and I only use it whenever I have full hots on the target and swiftmend / NSHT is on CD. I don't use nourish to raid heal.

Grizabella · 06/08/09, 4:43 PM

I play glyphed/spec'd HT, but it's not like I use it all night long. My non-HoTs make up between 15%-30% of my healing on any given fight. But if I see someone drop to 35% or so, and I don't have SM up... BAM! HT saves the day in .8 secs. That can be anywhere from a 5k-11k heal depending on your glyphs and if you crit. Nourish can't compete with that. You shouldn't be casting Nourish or HT all that much in the first place, so I opt for the speed and simplicity, and I don't have to worry about how many HoTs are on my target.

Fiarce · 06/09/09, 1:55 AM

Originally Posted by Grizabella

I play glyphed/spec'd HT, but it's not like I use it all night long. My non-HoTs make up between 15%-30% of my healing on any given fight. But if I see someone drop to 35% or so, and I don't have SM up... BAM! HT saves the day in .8 secs. That can be anywhere from a 5k-11k heal depending on your glyphs and if you crit. Nourish can't compete with that. You shouldn't be casting Nourish or HT all that much in the first place, so I opt for the speed and simplicity, and I don't have to worry about how many HoTs are on my target.

Nourish, assuming you've moved away from tier 7, shouldn't rely on hots to produce anyway.

And at any given time as a raid healer I am sitting with almost 20 raid members with at least 1 hot that can be SM'd anyway...

I don't see how the HT glyph for raiding is worth a major glyph slot in any way, shape, or form.

Ashwee · 06/09/09, 3:22 AM

Originally Posted by Grizabella

I play glyphed/spec'd HT, but it's not like I use it all night long. My non-HoTs make up between 15%-30% of my healing on any given fight. But if I see someone drop to 35% or so, and I don't have SM up... BAM! HT saves the day in .8 secs. That can be anywhere from a 5k-11k heal depending on your glyphs and if you crit. Nourish can't compete with that. You shouldn't be casting Nourish or HT all that much in the first place, so I opt for the speed and simplicity, and I don't have to worry about how many HoTs are on my target.

I honestly think glyphed ht is overkill but can see how this could be different for different guilds, in my personal experience when someone goes low they're either getting swiftmend a or a nourish from me. If it happens to be one of the few people that don't currently have a hot on them depending on how dire the situation is i'll either nourish without a hot (fast 4-5k heal) or apply one then nourish or regrowth.

However i can do this because my healing team works very well together, i can say with confidence if someone goes low that 2-3 people are going to react with equal speed, this means i personally don't have to be the one to top them. They're going to get love from our disc priest and a fol or holy shock from our paladin, this is complemented with any "smart heals" like cheal or wg (from our other resto druid) tickling them. Therefore me personally hitting them for 13k is not required. If the group of healers you raid with are considerably slower than you such that you know you need to spray heals around like you’re a paladin then go for it, but there is already a class designed to exactly what your speccing and glyphing for, get them to play to their strengths and you play to yours.

Allinone · 06/09/09, 4:25 AM

Originally Posted by Fiarce

Nourish, assuming you've moved away from tier 7, shouldn't rely on hots to produce anyway.

And at any given time as a raid healer I am sitting with almost 20 raid members with at least 1 hot that can be SM'd anyway...

I don't see how the HT glyph for raiding is worth a major glyph slot in any way, shape, or form.

Nourish by itself, without the glyph or the t7 bonus receives a 20% bonus to its heal if there is a HoT present on the target. As such nourish will ALWAYS rely on HoTs to produce. By not having a hot on your nourished target you are gimping your Nourish by 20%. On a related note, the wording of the Glyph/T7 states that it increases the healing for each additional HoT present on the target. This means that even with the Glyph/T7 bonus I am only receiving a 20% bonus to my Nourish if I only have 1 hot active. Where the Teir/Glyph starts to shine is in a single target healing situation, where it is very likely that a druid will be rolling 2-3 HoTs on the target at all times anyways.

Swiftmend is also on a 15s cooldown. While I agree that this is enough to cover most cases, It is most assuredly not enough to cover them all. Now, we can have disagreements and discussion about GHT all day, I think the post preceding mine summed it up best. Is it the most efficient use of our talents/glyphs? Probably not. Depending on your role in the raid though, it could be a useful tool.

Would I recommend every druid glyphs for GHT? No. I also wouldnt look at them like they were stupid for doing so. If you are almost always called on for raid healing, a combination of any of Wild Growth, Swiftmend, Rejuvenation, Healing Touch, or Innervate could also be argued for or against. Other than Wild Growth, nothing on that list screams nessecity. With no mana issues, and the supposedly buggy mechanic on Rejuvenation, Healing Touch at least appears viable.

Grizabella · 06/09/09, 7:31 AM

Originally Posted by Ashwee

I honestly think glyphed ht is overkill but can see how this could be different for different guilds, in my personal experience when someone goes low they're either getting swiftmend a or a nourish from me. If it happens to be one of the few people that don't currently have a hot on them depending on how dire the situation is i'll either nourish without a hot (fast 4-5k heal) or apply one then nourish or regrowth.

However i can do this because my healing team works very well together, i can say with confidence if someone goes low that 2-3 people are going to react with equal speed, this means i personally don't have to be the one to top them. They're going to get love from our disc priest and a fol or holy shock from our paladin, this is complemented with any "smart heals" like cheal or wg (from our other resto druid) tickling them. Therefore me personally hitting them for 13k is not required. If the group of healers you raid with are considerably slower than you such that you know you need to spray heals around like you’re a paladin then go for it, but there is already a class designed to exactly what your speccing and glyphing for, get them to play to their strengths and you play to yours.

We're typically running with 3 trees, a pally, a shammy, and a priest that is dual spec'd disc/holy. I can say with confidence that I bring raiders up from dangerous health levels almost every single boss encounter with GHT. Sure, sometimes I lose a little efficiency and top spot on meters if I use it too much, but it's better than being too late with a nourish and overhealing, or worse, letting the target die. As the poster above me notes, it's not like I'm losing anything notable when our glyph options are all unpredictably adding, what, <1% to our healing?

I'm hoping that when T9 comes out, they change the Rejuv glyph to be the current T8 bonus. I think trees will be very sad to let go of that instant rejuv bonus.

Erdluf · 06/09/09, 7:48 AM

Originally Posted by Allinone

On a related note, the wording of the Glyph/T7 states that it increases the healing for each additional HoT present on the target. This means that even with the Glyph/T7 bonus I am only receiving a 20% bonus to my Nourish if I only have 1 hot active.

That is not how I read the Glyph description (4t7 is similar):

Your Nourish heals an additional 6% for each of your heal over time effects present on the target.

To me that says one HoT = 6% additional healing (over and above the 20% from the spell tooltip).

I have not tested this to confirm which interpretation is correct.

Edit:

Originally Posted by wws

2:59'08.544 Kelt gains Wild Growth. #36000
2:59'10.529 Kelt gains 736 health from Erdluf Wild Growth. #36141
2:59'10.732 Kelt gains 1079 health from Erdluf Regrowth. #36142
2:59'11.076 Kelt gains 398 health from Erdluf Lifebloom. #36169
2:59'11.545 Kelt gains 1962 health from Erdluf Rejuvenation. (1198 Overheal) #36192
2:59'12.092 Kelt gains 399 health from Erdluf Lifebloom. #36231
2:59'12.576 Kelt gains 661 health from Erdluf Wild Growth. #36265
2:59'13.045 Kelt gains 398 health from Erdluf Lifebloom. #36286
2:59'13.045 Erdluf Lifebloom heals Kelt for 3195. #36287
2:59'13.139 Erdluf Lifebloom was removed from Kelt. #36288
2:59'13.514 Kelt gains 624 health from Erdluf Wild Growth. #36317
2:59'13.717 Kelt gains 1079 health from Erdluf Regrowth. #36322
2:59'14.467 Kelt gains 1963 health from Erdluf Rejuvenation. #36365
2:59'14.499 Kelt gains 587 health from Erdluf Wild Growth. #36372
2:59'15.514 Kelt gains 550 health from Erdluf Wild Growth. #36427
2:59'15.514 Erdluf Wild Growth was removed from Kelt. #36428
2:59'16.171 Erdluf Nourish heals Kelt for 5915. (4271 Overheal) #36476
2:59'20.469 Erdluf Rejuvenation was removed from Kelt. #36683
2:59'34.721 Erdluf Regrowth was removed from Kelt. #36828

This seems to confirm my interpretation. Ticks are consistent with 2286 spellpower:
Rejuv: (338+2286*1.2*.376)*(1+.05+.1+.15)*1.04*1.06 = 1962.6
Regrowth: (335+2286*1.2*.188)*(1+.05+.1)*1.04*1.06 = 1078.5
Lifebloom: (53+2286*1.2*.09518)*(1+.05+.1)*1.04*1.06 = 398.2
Wild Growth middle tick (2:59:12): (1442/7+2286*1.2*.11508)*(1+.05+.1)*1.04*1.06 = 661.4

Nourish range is
(1883+2286*.671)*1.2*1.1*1.04*1.06*(1+glyph_bonus)
(2187+2286*.671)*1.2*1.1*1.04*1.06*(1+glyph_bonus)

Note that at the time of Nourish, two HoTs were still on the target.

With a glyph bonus of 6%, the range is 5270-5740. With a glyph bonus of 12% the range is 5568-6064. Logged heal was 5915.

Note: some of these coefficients are from wowwiki and don't match those at the start of the EJ Itemization thread. WG numbers are consistent with the first tick gaining (1/7 + 6%) of the base damge. Each successive tick loses 2% of the base damage. The log contains ticks 2,4,5,6,7.

• malthrin · 06/09/09, 8:52 AM

Why aren't there any hots on the people taking this sudden spike damage?

Kuryeri · 06/09/09, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Grizabella

We're typically running with 3 trees, a pally, a shammy, and a priest that is dual spec'd disc/holy. I can say with confidence that I bring raiders up from dangerous health levels almost every single boss encounter with GHT. Sure, sometimes I lose a little efficiency and top spot on meters if I use it too much, but it's better than being too late with a nourish and overhealing, or worse, letting the target die. As the poster above me notes, it's not like I'm losing anything notable when our glyph options are all unpredictably adding, what, <1% to our healing?

I'm hoping that when T9 comes out, they change the Rejuv glyph to be the current T8 bonus. I think trees will be very sad to let go of that instant rejuv bonus.

With three trees you should have very little use for GHT. If you don't have a HoT on someone, someone else is bound to; Nourish if its yours, Swiftmend if it isn't. I'm the only tree on my raid team, and while I have been tempted to try GHT I generally have enough other options available and better things to use my glyphs for. If I'm running hots on half the raid I don't strictly have to toss a heal at anyone in the other half who takes damage, so at worst I can just trust the other healers who have a quicker/more efficient solution to deal with certain situations and work on the rest. We all want to do everything, but sometimes its better if we don't.

Norfair · 06/09/09, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Erdluf

That is not how I read the Glyph description (4t7 is similar):

Your Nourish heals an additional 6% for each of your heal over time effects present on the target.

To me that says one HoT = 6% additional healing (over and above the 20% from the spell tooltip).

I have not tested this to confirm which interpretation is correct.

Edit:

This seems to confirm my interpretation. Ticks are consistent with 2286 spellpower:
Rejuv: (338+2286*1.2*.376)*(1+.05+.1+.15)*1.04*1.06 = 1962.6
Regrowth: (335+2286*1.2*.188)*(1+.05+.1)*1.04*1.06 = 1078.5
Lifebloom: (53+2286*1.2*.09518)*(1+.05+.1)*1.04*1.06 = 398.2
Wild Growth middle tick (2:59:12): (1442/7+2286*1.2*.11508)*(1+.05+.1)*1.04*1.06 = 661.4

Nourish range is
(1883+2286*.671)*1.2*1.1*1.04*1.06*(1+glyph_bonus)
(2187+2286*.671)*1.2*1.1*1.04*1.06*(1+glyph_bonus)

Note that at the time of Nourish, two HoTs were still on the target.

With a glyph bonus of 6%, the range is 5270-5740. With a glyph bonus of 12% the range is 5568-6064. Logged heal was 5915.

Note: some of these coefficients are from wowwiki and don't match those at the start of the EJ Itemization thread. WG numbers are consistent with the first tick gaining (1/7 + 6%) of the base damge. Each successive tick loses 2% of the base damage. The log contains ticks 2,4,5,6,7.

I checked the WG coefficient and it seems indeed incorrect. I don't know if something has changed during the time, or that I made an error (although I am certain I doublechecked everything while writing that post). What is on WoWWiki is incorrect however, all hot ticks receive the same absolute increase. Here are some numbers I just tested today:

0 healing, out of treeform:
339
305
271
237
203
169
135
Total healing: 1659 (and NOT 1442 what the tooltip suggests; the increase is 15% which comes from Genesis and Gift of Nature)

2195, out of treeform:
686
653
619
585
552
518
484
Total: 4097

Total increase of 2438, meaning total coefficent of 1.111 without ToL or MS modifiers, or 1.111*1.06*1.04=1.224 with.
Also you can see that each tick is increased with about 348.

27 healing (from base spirit), in treeform:
377
340
304
266
229
191
154
Total: 1861

2356 healing, in treeform:
786
748
710
673
636
599
562
Total: 4714

Increase of 2853, coefficient: 1.225. Each tick is increased with around 407.

This makes me believe that fully talented in ToL each Wild Growth tick will get increased by 0.175 of the amount of spellpower we have. I have updated it on the first post of the itemization thread.