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Old 06/09/09, 11:37 AM   #1456
Erdluf
Great Tiger
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Echo Isles
A closed form equation that predicts each of Norfair's WG ticks (to within less than +/- 1):

Tick_heal = (1442*(1/7+1/49*(4-tick_number))+SP*1.2*.115)*(1+2%*GoN+1%*Genesis)*(1+2%*MSS)*(1+6%*ToL)

The 1.2 is from ER (5/5 ER is required to reach WG). The 0.115 matches the wowwiki number.

Fully talented it turns into .115*1.2*1.15*1.04*1.06 = .175 which matches Norfair's number.

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Old 06/09/09, 12:02 PM   #1457
Toadfoot
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Aman'Thul
Originally Posted by Grizabella View Post
I play glyphed/spec'd HT, but it's not like I use it all night long. My non-HoTs make up between 15%-30% of my healing on any given fight. But if I see someone drop to 35% or so, and I don't have SM up... BAM! HT saves the day in .8 secs. That can be anywhere from a 5k-11k heal depending on your glyphs and if you crit. Nourish can't compete with that. You shouldn't be casting Nourish or HT all that much in the first place, so I opt for the speed and simplicity, and I don't have to worry about how many HoTs are on my target.
My Nourish casts in just over 1 second, once it crits I can almost guarantee chain casts of 1 second. With zero hots on a target(which is very rare-considering rejuv. should be all over the place) it hits for approx. 4k and crits for close to 6.5k I believe(hopefully I am right on this-just guessing from memory). Your crit rate is 17% on your GHT, I think mine is about 37% on Nourish. In order to to maximize your GHT you have given up %20-%30 threat reduction, all points in regrowth(which is still a useful spell) and your NS+HT. You gave up all of this for a spell you admittedly don't use that much:/.

I am not saying you are right or wrong, but the opportunity cost just seems a bit high for something I am not even sure is better. This debate has been going on for a long time and I try to understand it, but just can't. I just think Nourish offers about the same thing at no real cost. If you are needing a .8 second cast heal, I would wonder what is going on with your raid. Your strength as a druid is not Nourish and HT anyway so spending lots of talent points on those things just doesn't compute for me.

Last edited by Toadfoot : 06/09/09 at 12:14 PM.

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Old 06/09/09, 12:44 PM   #1458
Cathiecj
Glass Joe
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Medivh
Originally Posted by Jurik View Post
Your increased overheal is likely due to the new blooming mechanic of lifebloom. Aside from relying less on Lifebloom, there's not much you can do to mitigate this.
I don't use lifebloom very often. And when I do, it is only on tanks.

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Old 06/09/09, 1:33 PM   #1459
Grizabella
Von Kaiser
 
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Night Elf Druid
 
Antonidas
Originally Posted by Toadfoot View Post
My Nourish casts in just over 1 second, once it crits I can almost guarantee chain casts of 1 second. With zero hots on a target(which is very rare-considering rejuv. should be all over the place) it hits for approx. 4k and crits for close to 6.5k I believe(hopefully I am right on this-just guessing from memory). Your crit rate is 17% on your GHT, I think mine is about 37% on Nourish. In order to to maximize your GHT you have given up %20-%30 threat reduction, all points in regrowth(which is still a useful spell) and your NS+HT. You gave up all of this for a spell you admittedly don't use that much:/.

I am not saying you are right or wrong, but the opportunity cost just seems a bit high for something I am not even sure is better. This debate has been going on for a long time and I try to understand it, but just can't. I just think Nourish offers about the same thing at no real cost. If you are needing a .8 second cast heal, I would wonder what is going on with your raid. Your strength as a druid is not Nourish and HT anyway so spending lots of talent points on those things just doesn't compute for me.
I felt like my hands were tied too often as a tree in scary situations, and unfortunately, that is quite often in my guild. The trick to being comfortable with the spec, for me, was finding the line between casting it too much and just enough. Only recently have I found that line. Sometimes I still cross it, and y'know maybe I'd be just as effective with Nourish, but during the weeks I tried it, it just didn't work for me.

I don't use Regrowth all that often anymore, and mostly it's just for extra hots on tanks, not for the initial heal, so the RG/Nourish crit talent is replaced by HT easily. I look at any crit bonuses as merely bonuses, and prefer speed greatly to that. The loss of NS+HT is not really a loss now that I use NS on my brez macro instead. Stopping to brez can be very disruptive if you are trying to rez an OT while the raid is taking big damage.

I encourage you to take a look at this parse for a sample of the spec in a typical raid. There are two other trees that were there part of the time as well, one with a much more "traditional" spec and style, Nebulx, (coincidentally, I think he recspec'd yesterday to drop the RG crit points, so don't look him up...), and the other has a long way to go and should probably be ignored.

If you see something I'm doing wrong, I am very open-minded about revisiting my spec and glyphs.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis

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Old 06/09/09, 2:00 PM   #1460
Toadfoot
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Aman'Thul
Originally Posted by Grizabella View Post
I felt like my hands were tied too often as a tree in scary situations, and unfortunately, that is quite often in my guild. The trick to being comfortable with the spec, for me, was finding the line between casting it too much and just enough. Only recently have I found that line. Sometimes I still cross it, and y'know maybe I'd be just as effective with Nourish, but during the weeks I tried it, it just didn't work for me.

I don't use Regrowth all that often anymore, and mostly it's just for extra hots on tanks, not for the initial heal, so the RG/Nourish crit talent is replaced by HT easily. I look at any crit bonuses as merely bonuses, and prefer speed greatly to that. The loss of NS+HT is not really a loss now that I use NS on my brez macro instead. Stopping to brez can be very disruptive if you are trying to rez an OT while the raid is taking big damage.

I encourage you to take a look at this parse for a sample of the spec in a typical raid. There are two other trees that were there part of the time as well, one with a much more "traditional" spec and style, Nebulx, (coincidentally, I think he recspec'd yesterday to drop the RG crit points, so don't look him up...), and the other has a long way to go and should probably be ignored.

If you see something I'm doing wrong, I am very open-minded about revisiting my spec and glyphs.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Like I said, I am not saying you are right or wrong. If it fits your style and you are successful then power to you. I just believe that Blizzard provides us with a certain amount of resources to do a job: so many gem slots, so many talent points etc. etc. and I don't necessarily believe you are maximizing that. BUT, that is just my opinion and that is all it is. Anyway, have fun and good luck to ya.

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Old 06/09/09, 2:06 PM   #1461
Mondas
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Runetotem
Personally, I could never get rid of NS+HT. Just this past weekend we killed Hodir 25 for the first time and during that fight the MT's health went way into the red and I dropped a 17k NS+HT on him. I was raid healing, but to be able to dump that kind of heal in an instant is priceless and probably saved the raid. Once that cushion was in place the MT healers had him back to 100% quickly. I think this is far more valuable than NS+Rebirth, which I can still do if I want to.

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Old 06/09/09, 2:31 PM   #1462
Grizabella
Von Kaiser
 
Grizabella's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Antonidas
Originally Posted by Mondas View Post
Personally, I could never get rid of NS+HT. Just this past weekend we killed Hodir 25 for the first time and during that fight the MT's health went way into the red and I dropped a 17k NS+HT on him. I was raid healing, but to be able to dump that kind of heal in an instant is priceless and probably saved the raid. Once that cushion was in place the MT healers had him back to 100% quickly. I think this is far more valuable than NS+Rebirth, which I can still do if I want to.
Hodir's swing timer is 2.4 secs. With quick response time I could get two HTs off in that time. For insurance I have my [Scale of Fates] macro'd into my HT. That would bring my GCD down to 1sec I believe. With rejuv glyph, that's about 16.5k healed before the next hit. In practice, I would probably have gotten only 1 of those heals off, or had a SM in there, before a pally or someone else was already finishing the job. But just sayin'...

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Old 06/09/09, 2:33 PM   #1463
Kuryeri
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Mannoroth
Originally Posted by Grizabella View Post
I encourage you to take a look at this parse for a sample of the spec in a typical raid. There are two other trees that were there part of the time as well, one with a much more "traditional" spec and style, Nebulx, (coincidentally, I think he recspec'd yesterday to drop the RG crit points, so don't look him up...), and the other has a long way to go and should probably be ignored.

If you see something I'm doing wrong, I am very open-minded about revisiting my spec and glyphs.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
It's hard to compare you two too much since Nebulx was only there for the last few fights, but here's what I see. Your HT crit 24% of the time for a total average healing of 4898 after 33.8% overheal. Nebulx crit on 48% of his 23 Nourish casts, averaging 5135 healed after 21.5% overheal. Aianea's Nourish averaged 1989 with 70.5% overheal. Adding the overheal back in your HT was hitting for 6545 Neb's Nourish was hitting for 6541 on average, and Aia's Nourish did 6742. Small sample size, but the Nourishes were being cast on a lot of different raid members and you all had 40+% healing from RJ so I'm sure the hots were all over the raid. For the way you are saying you use HT it seems like Nourish would fill the same niche without taking a glyph slot and talent points.

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Old 06/09/09, 2:37 PM   #1464
Mazzarus
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Hydraxis
Originally Posted by Grizabella View Post
I felt like my hands were tied too often as a tree in scary situations, and unfortunately, that is quite often in my guild. The trick to being comfortable with the spec, for me, was finding the line between casting it too much and just enough. Only recently have I found that line. Sometimes I still cross it, and y'know maybe I'd be just as effective with Nourish, but during the weeks I tried it, it just didn't work for me.

I don't use Regrowth all that often anymore, and mostly it's just for extra hots on tanks, not for the initial heal, so the RG/Nourish crit talent is replaced by HT easily. I look at any crit bonuses as merely bonuses, and prefer speed greatly to that. The loss of NS+HT is not really a loss now that I use NS on my brez macro instead. Stopping to brez can be very disruptive if you are trying to rez an OT while the raid is taking big damage.

I encourage you to take a look at this parse for a sample of the spec in a typical raid. There are two other trees that were there part of the time as well, one with a much more "traditional" spec and style, Nebulx, (coincidentally, I think he recspec'd yesterday to drop the RG crit points, so don't look him up...), and the other has a long way to go and should probably be ignored.

If you see something I'm doing wrong, I am very open-minded about revisiting my spec and glyphs.

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis
Your healing charts seem very strange. You have a paladin as almost the top healer which should not be happening if your other healers are doing their jobs (not to say pallies can't be up there, but it is almost always shamans, druids, and priests).

For Ignis, which is a very raid healer friendly fight, the pally is on top and your HPS is almost 1k lower than his which I find extremely odd. For Hodir you're at 3300 hps which is almost 2k lower than what I usually see trees at.

Here was a Hodir fight from last week: Wow Web Stats

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Old 06/09/09, 2:52 PM   #1465
Grizabella
Von Kaiser
 
Grizabella's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Antonidas
Originally Posted by Kuryeri View Post
It's hard to compare you two too much since Nebulx was only there for the last few fights, but here's what I see. Your HT crit 24% of the time for a total average healing of 4898 after 33.8% overheal. Nebulx crit on 48% of his 23 Nourish casts, averaging 5135 healed after 21.5% overheal. Aianea's Nourish averaged 1989 with 70.5% overheal. Adding the overheal back in your HT was hitting for 6545 Neb's Nourish was hitting for 6541 on average, and Aia's Nourish did 6742. Small sample size, but the Nourishes were being cast on a lot of different raid members and you all had 40+% healing from RJ so I'm sure the hots were all over the raid. For the way you are saying you use HT it seems like Nourish would fill the same niche without taking a glyph slot and talent points.
That is kind of my point, I'm saying that gHT and Nourish are very comparable, just that I like the speed and that there is no HoT requirement at all. You say "taking a glyph slot" but that's moot because the slot would go to Nourish anyway, right?

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Old 06/09/09, 2:55 PM   #1466
Rijndael
Don Flamenco
 
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Dwarf Priest
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by malthrin View Post
Why aren't there any hots on the people taking this sudden spike damage?
Because a single druid cannot guarantee full hot coverage on 25 people. Also, GHT beats Nourish with a single hot both in terms of HPS and in terms of amount healed (at least with my gear), and it is not practical to maintain 2 hots on the raid (and at any rate it would take 3 hots for Nourish to do better than GHT).

Last edited by Rijndael : 06/09/09 at 3:35 PM.

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Old 06/09/09, 3:51 PM   #1467
Lord BEEF
Soda Popinski
 
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Tauren Druid
 
Mal'Ganis
Originally Posted by Mazzarus View Post
Your healing charts seem very strange. You have a paladin as almost the top healer which should not be happening if your other healers are doing their jobs (not to say pallies can't be up there, but it is almost always shamans, druids, and priests).
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That paladin was judging light. If you have to have a holy judging light, it'll bring their numbers up quite a bit. Normally you have a ret do it since theirs is much much more powerful.

edit: I'm surprised hardly anyone runs the regrowth glyph anymore. I personally prefer it over the nourish glyph because I cast regrowth a lot more and having a 20% stronger hot on the tanks is nice.

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Old 06/09/09, 4:10 PM   #1468
Rijndael
Don Flamenco
 
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Dwarf Priest
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Lord BEEF View Post
edit: I'm surprised hardly anyone runs the regrowth glyph anymore. I personally prefer it over the nourish glyph because I cast regrowth a lot more and having a 20% stronger hot on the tanks is nice.
What do you use Regrowth for, aside from keeping it up on tank?

My experience with Regrowth: 10-15% healed, glyph generally adds 10% to this number (so 11-16.5% ish). HPS gain on the tank isn't very high because Regrowth has low HPS compared to other hots.

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Old 06/09/09, 4:22 PM   #1469
Toadfoot
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Aman'Thul
Originally Posted by Rijndael View Post
Because a single druid cannot guarantee full hot coverage on 25 people. Also, GHT beats Nourish with a single hot both in terms of HPS and in terms of amount healed (at least with my gear), and it is not practical to maintain 2 hots on the raid (and at any rate it would take 3 hots for Nourish to do better than GHT).
How do you guys play with no threat reduction? 2/3 sub is bad enough let alone 0/3. Don't you lose a bunch of healing from just having to be more cautious or dead? As much healing as a druid can do, I am usually up there on threat.

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Old 06/09/09, 4:30 PM   #1470
Rijndael
Don Flamenco
 
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Dwarf Priest
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Toadfoot View Post
How do you guys play with no threat reduction? 2/3 sub is bad enough let alone 0/3. Don't you lose a bunch of healing from just having to be more cautious or dead? As much healing as a druid can do, I am usually up there on threat.
The worst fight I can think of in terms of threat is Thorim arena, and I seem to have no problems with a competent DK tank. Threat is a non-issue the vast majority of the time in Ulduar.

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