Elitist Jerks Moonkin Guide for Dummies!

 01/05/09, 7:44 PM #2 • Hamlet     Hamlet Tauren Druid   Mal'Ganis Nice post--I was just thinking of doing something like this myself given the high frequency of basic question lately. ----- Nitpicks on spec: Isn't IFF a better personal DPS increase than CF (you say yourself later that 1% crit > 1% haste, which I think is correct)? I'd have the spec section read: 1) If no Shadowpriest, take 3/3 IFF 2) If you plan to AoE at all, take Gale Winds, OoC, and Starfall 3) Fill mana talents in the following order until you do not run out of mana: OoC, Intensity, Dreamstate, Moonglow 4) Put remaining points into DPS talents in the following order: IFF, IIS, CF, Brambles For the vast majority of Moonkin in typical PvE situations, the result is: http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...h=071911000000 With the last 3 in either CF or Intensity depending on mana needs. edit: In fact, now that I think about it, no realistic combination results in leaving out IFF so you can just include in the "base" spec. Last edited by Hamlet : 01/05/09 at 7:53 PM.
 01/05/09, 8:30 PM #3 Remitroll Glass Joe   Daker Tauren Druid   Aggramar (EU) Great Post. After being a Mage since beta, I've just switched to Moonkin, have hit 80 and am now gearing myself up. Quick question on IFF. I've taken the talent to cover for when our SP is absent, but given that we have a Druid main tank, if the SP is using Misery, will I still gain the +crit bonus from the Tank's FF?
01/05/09, 8:40 PM   #4
Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>

Tauren Druid

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Remitroll Great Post. After being a Mage since beta, I've just switched to Moonkin, have hit 80 and am now gearing myself up. Quick question on IFF. I've taken the talent to cover for when our SP is absent, but given that we have a Druid main tank, if the SP is using Misery, will I still gain the +crit bonus from the Tank's FF?
Can't find the post right now, but I believe someone recently tested this (by using Resilience to drop the crit rate to 0), and found that it does work with any application of FF.

01/05/09, 11:34 PM   #5
Happy October 19th!

Night Elf Druid

Dragonblight
 Originally Posted by Arawethion (you say yourself later that 1% crit > 1% haste, which I think is correct)?
This is not the case. For the moment ignoring Nature's Grace, in straight up DPS, 1% Haste is exactly equal to 1% crit if and only if your haste and crit percentage are identical. In all other cases, the stat which you have less of is worth more. Now, given Nature's Grace, the balance does shift toward Crit, but not by very much. Crit also provides mana regen of course. But given that your base raid haste is much less than your base raid crit (50% raid-buffed crit is not unheard of, can you say the same for 50% raid-buffed haste?), haste is almost always going to be the better option.

01/06/09, 12:38 AM   #6
Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>

Tauren Druid

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Adoriele This is not the case. For the moment ignoring Nature's Grace, in straight up DPS, 1% Haste is exactly equal to 1% crit if and only if your haste and crit percentage are identical. In all other cases, the stat which you have less of is worth more. Now, given Nature's Grace, the balance does shift toward Crit, but not by very much. Crit also provides mana regen of course. But given that your base raid haste is much less than your base raid crit (50% raid-buffed crit is not unheard of, can you say the same for 50% raid-buffed haste?), haste is almost always going to be the better option.
Whoops, yeah, I'd actually done the rough calculation here and slightly misremembered the result when I posted above:
http://elitistjerks.com/1028996-post201.html

 01/06/09, 1:49 AM #7 • Hamlet     Hamlet Tauren Druid   Mal'Ganis For general interest, I'd rather do a more exact comparison of crit/haste scaling in the presence of Nature's Grace. I'm just curious, since unlike normal scaling, the Nature's Grace term actually gets more valuable as you get more crit. The value of 1% of each is nearly identical at values like 15% haste, 60% crit. ---- DPS D is given by: $D=k(1+H)(1+cC)\frac{1}{(1-nC)}$, where H is haste value C is crit chance c is crit bonus (typically 1.09) n is Nature's Grace cast reduction (1/6 for Starfire) k is an arbitrary constant for any fixed value of spellpower and hit chance Taking logarithmic derivatives to find relative marginal values of H and C (and skipping the algebra): $\frac{1}{D}\frac{dD}{dH}=\frac{1}{(1+H)}$ (same as for any caster) $\frac{1}{D}\frac{dD}{dC}=\frac{c}{(1+cC)}+\frac{n}{1-nC}$ (first term is the same as for any caster, second term is the new increasing Nature's Grace term) ---- Evaluating at a sample point (c=1.09, n=1/6, C=50%), 1% to crit gives 0.89% DPS, whereas it would have given 0.71% without Nature's Grace. At any value over 12% haste, haste gives less than this. So they're very close, and the line of equivalence passes right through typical gear regions. Given how imperceptible the difference is, it's probably not worth worrying about either way--I'm sure it's underneath the precision of any theorycraft we're doing.
 01/06/09, 3:01 AM #8 poad Glass Joe   Poad Tauren Druid   Detheroc so hamlet it is safe to assume that above 12 % haste a moonkin, if he could would want to stack more crit in gear rather then haste? Last edited by poad : 01/06/09 at 3:16 AM.
 01/06/09, 3:53 AM #9 Angelfire Von Kaiser   Anglefire Night Elf Druid   Emerald Dream (EU) @Ashaera: First of all, great post and great initiative, thank you! A few points: 1. Regarding the spec you suggested, Arawethion is correct and you can just add IFF to it. Also, considering starter moonkins will spec mostly for 10 man or 5 man runs, I believe points in IMotW are better spent than points in Nature's Focus, as you are not assured to have a tree around. 2. You use the term Nature's Grasp procs several times. I suppose you mean Nature's Grace procs, but just so that new owls will know precisely what we are talking about. 3. You mention Starfall to be a single target DPS boost, is that so? I mean, I know that one drop of stars does tons of damage, but considering the CD, is it really worth the point with only single-target DPS in mind? 4. I've seen it several times, but I don't understand why would [Chaotic Skyflare Diamond] be better than [Ember Skyflare Diamond]? I mean, on a 1:1 comparison 25 spell power is worth more than 21 crit, and the 2% int even gives some crit on it's own, so why is that gem better? 5. What is the Alchemy ability that gives you 37 spell power? Again, thanks a lot for the post and hard work gathering the material, well done!
 01/06/09, 5:03 AM #10 Nenaunir Glass Joe   Nenaunir Tauren Druid   Lightbringer (EU) Alchemy in itself doesn't give a raw 37 spell damage, but Alchemists get mixology which increases the effect and duration of elixir and flasks. So when using a flask of the frost wyrm you get double duration and 37 extra spell power from it.
 01/06/09, 6:29 AM #11 Ashaera Piston Honda   Ashaera Night Elf Druid   Auchindoun (EU) On metagem Counting Eclipse then most moonkins will be looking at 60%+ crit rate on Starfire rather soon - Ill admit that my choice is very biased by a past as mage but Im rather sure. My initial post might be too conclusive but for now i'll leave it as it stands for clarity. --- On Starfall Looking at my Patchwerk parses I get : 7770damage (30% crit), 9541damage (50% crit), 6838damage (10% crit) & week 1 with 2 casts: 16341damage (45% crit). Around 8k damage for a instant spell - The 9.5k damage 1 has the correct crit % though. Even before Nature's Grace procs this is better than half a Starfire. --- @Poad (on haste): 12% haste is to be assumed yes - Imp moonkin aura adds 3%, a shaman another 5% & Celestrial Focus 3% more if you pick that. 20-25% haste with 25man buffs is easily obtainable. --- Crit vs Haste 1 thing that matters alot (atleast this is my opinion) is how fast you proc Eclipse - I don't really gear for stacking crit, but I know what it does do my dps when I catch unlucky RNG while spamming Wrath. Adding 5% crit doesnt make a huge difference here though, but I feel a serious blow when I go for starfire eclipses in a 10man with 10-12% lowered crit. --- On spec We are never going to agree on a base, I know that. I'd love to keep the first post simple, but ill adjust it abit to reflect other views. 1 problem is that my needs doesn't exacly match those of a starter moonkin & I tend to look upon some talents as baseline that might not be.
01/06/09, 10:31 AM   #12
Erdluf
Great Tiger

Night Elf Druid

Echo Isles
 Originally Posted by Arawethion DPS D is given by: $D=k(1+H)(1+cC)\frac{1}{(1-nC)}$, where H is haste value C is crit chance c is crit bonus (typically 1.09) n is Nature's Grace cast reduction (1/6 for Starfire) k is an arbitrary constant for any fixed value of spellpower and hit chance
Note that H in this formula is Haste from gear only (perhaps consumables also, idk). Haste from talents, bloodlust, etc. are included in k. Certainly plenty of Moonkin have >12% from gear, but don't include CF or IMkF when making that check.

C is crit from all sources, including Eclipse.

Also, your spells with no significant crit (FF, MF, IS, Rebirth, Hurricane (c=.545)) will get some benefit from haste.

This doesn't really change the underlying conclusion. They are roughly equal in value (on a % basis), depending on gear and raid makeup. On a rating basis, haste is likely to be ahead, unless you have mana issues.

01/06/09, 10:58 AM   #13
Faerdael
Piston Honda

Night Elf Hunter

Gilneas
 Originally Posted by Arawethion DPS D is given by: $D=k(1+H)(1+cC)\frac{1}{(1-nC)}$, where H is haste value C is crit chance c is crit bonus (typically 1.09) n is Nature's Grace cast reduction (1/6 for Starfire) k is an arbitrary constant for any fixed value of spellpower and hit chance
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this assesment neglecting wrath, since n only values NG reduction to starfire? (being that haste is worth nothing to a NG'd wrath, plus wrath starts out with 1/3 NG cast reduction)

Toward the original post, I think it is pretty safe to say at this point that haste rating is a better DPS stat than crit rating (its just so much cheaper), unless looking at mana efficiency, which in all likelyhood is better addressed through talents anyway.

Last edited by Faerdael : 01/06/09 at 4:38 PM.

01/06/09, 4:20 PM   #14
Cdin
Von Kaiser

Troll Druid

Stonemaul
 Originally Posted by Angelfire 4. I've seen it several times, but I don't understand why would [Chaotic Skyflare Diamond] be better than [Ember Skyflare Diamond]? I mean, on a 1:1 comparison 25 spell power is worth more than 21 crit, and the 2% int even gives some crit on it's own, so why is that gem better?
Your comparing the wrong part of the gem. The 3% increase to Crit Damage is why you want the Chaotic Skyflare Diamaond.

I haven't run the numbers it recently, but back during BC I found that the 3% increase was worth at least 25 Spell Power by itself. The 2% increase to Int is very minor. I'm not exactly sure how it is calculated but fully raid buffed I have 1200 Int. An extra 2% is just 24 Int.

Last edited by Cdin : 01/06/09 at 4:36 PM.

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01/06/09, 5:19 PM   #15
Hamlet
<Druid Trainer>

Tauren Druid

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Cdin I haven't run the numbers it recently, but back during BC I found that the 3% increase was worth at least 25 Spell Power by itself. The 2% increase to Int is very minor. I'm not exactly sure how it is calculated but fully raid buffed I have 1200 Int. An extra 2% is just 24 Int.
I'm pretty sure the 3% crit damage is worth on the order of 100 spellpower.

 Originally Posted by Faerdael Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this assesment neglecting wrath, since n only values NG reduction to starfire? (being that haste is worth nothing to a NG'd wrath, plus wrath starts out with 1/3 NG cast reduction) Toward the original post, I think it is pretty safe to say at this point that haste rating is a better DPS stat than crit rating (its just so much cheaper), unless looking at mana efficiency, which in all likelyhood is better addressed through talents anyway.
Right, it omits a lot of things. It's just to show:
1) NG is important enough that we can't assume haste is better than crit simply because we have far less of it.
2) It's going to be close enough in typical cases that only detailed Eclipse rotation calculation can provide a meaningful answer--and even then it might be a coin toss.

And yes, this all results in haste rating being far better with any realistic gear setup.

Last edited by Hamlet : 01/06/09 at 5:27 PM.

 Elitist Jerks Moonkin Guide for Dummies!