Moonkin Guide for Dummies! - Page 16

Erdluf · 04/15/09, 8:59 AM

Originally Posted by Kaia

My question is with Typhoon since it IS AE, but more tightly controlled, so in some ways more versatile. Do you use Typhoon as part of a rotation on its cool down? I guess I'm saying, do you randomly throw in your cool downs, in between your IFF/IS/MF/(Ecplise) rotations?

Typhoon is poor DPS and very poor DPM in a single-target situation. Its main use for single-target is that it gives you something to do while moving. I'm not aware of any bosses that get pushed back.

As an AoE, Typhoon beats Hurricane in both DPS and DPM (assuming same number of targets in each case). However the pushback is annoying for tanked targets. If you don't have it glyphed, you should probably only use it as a finisher, or for un-tanked targets (the ones being tanked by your healer).

My main use for Typhoon is outside of raids. Use it for PvP, or to gather a group of mobs when Starfall is on cooldown.

neozz1 · 04/15/09, 9:01 AM

I cannot seem to find the 3.1 rotation. is it still the following?

IFF > IS > MF > Wrath till eclipse > SF till cd, refresh dots and SF till CD is over?

Throwing starfall and treants in when off cd?

klüger · 04/16/09, 3:20 AM

Originally Posted by Angelfire

If I understand the mechanics of trees correctly, in order for them to benefit from BloodLust they have to be out before BloodLust is cast, otherwise they do not get it, so the way to get them to benefit from it is to ask the shammie to announce it a couple seconds before he casts it.

This is true (and annoying when you have uncooperative shamans)

Ebonwood · 04/16/09, 5:12 AM

I don't know about all of you, but (with very limited testing, granted) I found that a reversed eclipse rotation was giving me more dps.

Mind you, this is WITH all my haste, and a ton of global cooldown run-ins, I was doing a noticeably higher amount of dps with IS > MF > Starfire til wrath eclipse > wrath > starfire during internal CD > plus dot refreshes/starfall/treants

If anyone else was noticing this, please say something, cause maybe I'm just super lucky with wrath eclipses haha.

But if it's doing much better now, then all that haste we stacked is actually DETRIMENTAL now, because of the GCD, and stacking crit would be completely viable again, because it would increase eclipse procs form starfire crits, and not to mention nice and shiny wrath eclipsed crits

If all my itemization is switched, yet again, then /sigh. But anything for a few more deeps :P

tigriss · 04/16/09, 9:25 AM

I've been testing several DPS rotations today and yesterday too

1. the old one:mf/wrath to proc eclipse/ sf
2. the old one+is(glyphed) refreshing dots anytime except during eclipse
3.the old one reversed (looking for eclipse procs for wrath){having 500 haste and 23% crit isnt probably the best gear to try this tough)
4.few dumb ones: only wrath+IS with no eclipse, even tried the SF+wrath one, tried with procs for both of them

I was somewhat frustrated to not be able to find a clear pattern of one being categorically better than the other.

Did tests up to the point i was OOM dealing between 390-480k damage before getting OOM. DPS self buffed on the big heroic target dummies was anywhere between 3.1 to 4k as said..imo it depends so much on chance that ultimatelly i find it a matter of finding the rotation that suits your playstyle best.

Going for mf/is/sf to proc eclipse/wrath spam seems to have some potential if you would stack on crit.Personally i cba casting a spell at every GCD...we have resto tree for that

So i think i will go with

MF/IS (glyphed)/wrath until eclipse/ SF

wich makes sense giving glyphed IS does roughly the same amount of damage/tick as glyphed MF, just requires refreshing every 14 sec instead of 25 and it only costs 200 odd mana.

P.S.im surprised not to see any discussion sparking on this thread about the new moonkin changes and how these affect the spell rotation, seeing as if every other class/ spec is storming with debates.is everything old and new for moonkins nowdays?

pappa · 04/16/09, 9:51 AM

Originally Posted by tigriss

I've been testing several DPS rotations today and yesterday too

1. the old one:mf/wrath to proc eclipse/ sf
2. the old one+is(glyphed) refreshing dots anytime except during eclipse
3.the old one reversed (looking for eclipse procs for wrath){having 500 haste and 23% crit isnt probably the best gear to try this tough)
4.few dumb ones: only wrath+IS with no eclipse, even tried the SF+wrath one, tried with procs for both of them

I saw the old one as glyph for sf
is, mf, sf 3 times to make the mf longer, then wrath until eclipse, and while eclipse is on internal cd yuo cast wrath until you need to refresh moonfire, and then you do starfire to keep moonfire stay longer again etc...

I found that out by reading these forums, but maybe it changed...

DigitalMocking · 04/16/09, 11:24 AM

I went 58/0/13 (spec here)last night for Ulduar and I found myself having massive mana issues, especially during deconstructor. Popping out to help throw heals just wrecked my mana pool. DPS was great, 5k+ right up until the final 15% of the boss when I found myself mana starved.

I'm thinking about changing the spec around a bit to this spec, yes, I'll lose some dps to not having brambles, but the question is what to do with the last 2 points. Considering the spirit nerf, does it make more sense to take dreamstate over intensity? Threat with 0 points in reduction was also kind of an issue if the RNG was being nice to me, so I've switched some talents around to compensate for that as well.

Armory is set to my resto gear atm, boomkin gear is around 500haste, 17% unbuffed crit, 2k spellpower iirc.

Thoughts?

thedopefishlives · 04/16/09, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by DigitalMocking

Considering the spirit nerf, does it make more sense to take dreamstate over intensity?

For the last time, the "spirit nerf" has _absolutely nothing_ to do with while-casting mana regen. Intensity > Dreamstate pre-patch; Intensity > Dreamstate post-patch.

DigitalMocking · 04/16/09, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by thedopefishlives

For the last time, the "spirit nerf" has _absolutely nothing_ to do with while-casting mana regen. Intensity > Dreamstate pre-patch; Intensity > Dreamstate post-patch.

Thanks, will change my spec around and see how it goes tonight. Granted, I'll probably wind up healing for most of ulduar tho :p

Erdluf · 04/16/09, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by tigriss

P.S.im surprised not to see any discussion sparking on this thread about the new moonkin changes and how these affect the spell rotation, seeing as if every other class/ spec is storming with debates.is everything old and new for moonkins nowdays?

Frankly, there are a lot of choices you can make that will have very little impact on your DPS.

Simulationcraft PTR sample output from 3 days ago shows an SF Eclipse rotation being about 2-3% better than an Eclipse rotation, but that ignores:

1) Use SF Eclipse for Bloodlust, Wrath Eclipse otherwise
2) Suppose you don't have the SF idol (but it is now available for only 25 EoV?).
3) Suppose your latency is slightly different than SimulationCraft's?
4) Suppose your haste is a bit lower?

I think any one of those could potentially close (or widen) the 2% gap.

Suppose Simulationcraft thinks it takes you (counting latency) 1.06s for the average Wrath and 2.06s for the Average SF, but you do better at 1.02s and 2.02s (all four of these are made-up numbers). Your Wrath output is 4% better, but your SF is only 2% better. A difference of 1/25 of a second is not much, but it would reverse the relative standings.

I think a valid reason to favor SF is that when the network starts being flakey, SF holds up a little better. It may very well be the case that when things work perfectly Wrath is a better choice.

Another "decision" is when to refresh DoTs. In 3.09 I think most felt that refreshing MF early in Eclipse was probably a win, but it was such a small win that many didn't bother. Insect Swarm may now be in the same boat.

Another question is when to cast Starfall. Starfall scales poorly. In 3.09 I usually waited for an Eclipse cooldown (when SF/Wr is least valuable) to cast Starfall. With a 3-minute cooldown, that was unlikely to impact how many times I could use it in a fight. With a shorter cooldown, and new NG mechanics that is less likely to be optimal. I'll probably use it pre-Eclipse as well as post-Eclipse. I'm not aware that anyone has run numbers on this, and I don't expect the choice to make a large difference either way.

thedopefishlives · 04/16/09, 12:41 PM

My own numbers in Rawr have been showing that in a low-haste, high-crit situation, Wrath Eclipse pulls ahead of Starfire Eclipse by a measurable amount. Given that we don't know the entire loot table of Ulduar yet, and a lot of the listed haste gear also has spirit on it (which makes it sub-optimal, in general), Rawr seems to be gravitating toward a Wrath-based Eclipse at the top levels of currently known gear. It worries me because it makes me wonder if I got the equations right.

Tyraz · 04/16/09, 2:28 PM

Would it be viable to keep dots up all the time, no matter if you're within an ecplise or not? IS (glyphed) seems to be very good dmg atm and I wonder if a GCD is worth keeping it up 100% of the time.

Basically, what I'm saying is no matter what, cast MF and IS every 12 seconds.

IS seems to tick for 1150 and MF for 1170 with my current gear.

Don't know if this would be useful or not (probably not since we were learning the fight and these attempts were wipe)

WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish

WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay in Engrish

These were the best attempts we had on him. We are going back in Ulduar tonight I'll try and get more accurate numbers.

One more thing, I had MAJOR mana issues and I had to spec 3 points in Intensity.

pukabg · 04/16/09, 2:59 PM

The only issue with wrath based eclipse that i can come up with is during BL we will lose the huge advantage that we have with the SF eclipse due to lack of haste

Ebonwood · 04/16/09, 3:23 PM

Originally Posted by thedopefishlives

My own numbers in Rawr have been showing that in a low-haste, high-crit situation, Wrath Eclipse pulls ahead of Starfire Eclipse by a measurable amount. Given that we don't know the entire loot table of Ulduar yet, and a lot of the listed haste gear also has spirit on it (which makes it sub-optimal, in general), Rawr seems to be gravitating toward a Wrath-based Eclipse at the top levels of currently known gear. It worries me because it makes me wonder if I got the equations right.

Dang! I'm excited, but at the same time, kind of upset, haha.

I think these numbers will be right, though. I mean, if the gear you've seen is already leaning on crit, and with the eclipse changes in the patch, I may be getting ahead of myself, but I'm thinking it's a substantial move from haste and starfire to crit and wrath.

I was doing a noticeably larger amount of dps, like I said before, WITH all my haste. I can only imagine how making most of that into crit, and not hitting the GC will be

I'm interested in pursuing this, though. So if anyone else has similar stats, or even ones that point in the opposite direction, I'm interested in hearing more about the IS > MF > SF-Eclipse > Wrath rotation.

tarrek · 04/16/09, 5:51 PM

I noticed the same. Without having done the mathwork, I see considerable higher Recount numbers using a Wrath rotation, even when I'm clipping the GCD and using gear optimized for a starfire rotation (~600 haste)

Would be interesting to see some serious math on the subject.