Moonkin Guide for Dummies! - Page 3

thann · 01/11/09, 8:16 AM

Wow sorry can't believe it doesn't work. Never really looked at numbers as i always used it with the haste pot. Good to know though.

Shuror · 01/11/09, 9:43 AM

Originally Posted by dukes

b) NG doesn't remove exactly 0.5 seconds on Starfire when critting. My base cast times are 2.47 and 2.06 seconds, which is consistent with a 1/6th reduction (from 3.0 - 0.5 = 1/6th reduction).

Well, technically it doesn't remove 1/6th, but it removes a static 0.5 seconds before haste. For example, from your non-NG cast time i deduce that you have approx. 21.45% haste buffed. That would make the NGed cast time 2.0583 seconds, which is what you have.

It's practically the same thing when you only calculate Starfire with Nature's Grace and fully talented Starlight Wrath, which obviously all Moonkins have.

Moonwhisper · 01/13/09, 11:38 AM

Very nice thread Ashaera, keep up the good work.

I missed 2 information that I believe are important for moonkin newcomers (and dummies).

1. Table of Hit cap / Soft hit cap with balance of power / ... with iFF / draenei racial buff and combinations thereof
Hit cap for dps casters on bosses lvl 83+ is:

446 (17%) --> no talents/buffs or whatsoever included.
341 (14%) --> with 2/2 in Balance of Power talent
263 (10%) --> with 2/2 in Balance of Power talent and Misery (priest talent) or improved FF (3/3)
236 (9%) --> with BoP and Misery/iFF and a draenei in grp. (heroic presence draenei racial buff)

2. Thumb rules for relative ratios between Spellpower / Spell Hit / Crit / Spell power / Haste / Int expressed in points of Spellpower.

Spellpower: 1
Spell Hit Rating: 1.1
Haste Rating: 0.76
Crit Rating : 0.55
Int: 0.15

The ratios above are based on Graylo's calculations (10/13/08) and relations which were found by Whitetooth (author of rating buster) However, I am not a math crack just took them "as they are" and rounded for convenience reason.
(reference: Gray Matter: Moonkin Stats at Level 80)
(reference: RatingBuster - Addons - Curse)

I believe that these information is very helpful for an educated decision on equipment.
Could you please include this in your summary. Thx in advance.

Cdin · 01/13/09, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Moonwhisper

Very nice thread Ashaera, keep up the good work.

2. Thumb rules for relative ratios between Spellpower / Spell Hit / Crit / Spell power / Haste / Int expressed in points of Spellpower.

Spellpower: 1
Spell Hit Rating: 1.1
Haste Rating: 0.76
Crit Rating : 0.55
Int: 0.15

The ratios above are based on Graylo's calculations (10/13/08) and relations which were found by Whitetooth (author of rating buster) However, I am not a math crack just took them "as they are" and rounded for convenience reason.
(reference: Gray Matter: Moonkin Stats at Level 80)
(reference: RatingBuster - Addons - Curse)

Just so you know those numbers were calculated using a beta version of the game. Therefore they have a couple of issues.

1. Since I didn't have access to the beta I had to estimate what the average levels of Spell Power, Crit, and Haste would be. In actuallity I think I think I should have used higher base values for each of those stats.

2. Those stats were based pure on Starfire. While Starfire is still our primary spell, wrath is more important then it was in the Burning Crusade.

3. Also, several things about the game have changed since then that may affect the value of each stat. For instance when I wrote that post I assumed the NG did not affect the GCD. The current conventional wisdom is that it does.

I do think those numbers are fairly close but I doubt they are 100% accurate. I do plan on updating that information, I just havent' gotten around to it yet. I hope to do it soon.

• Adoriele · 01/13/09, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by Cdin

Just so you know those numbers were calculated using a beta version of the game. Therefore they have a couple of issues.

1. Since I didn't have access to the beta I had to estimate what the average levels of Spell Power, Crit, and Haste would be. In actuallity I think I think I should have used higher base values for each of those stats.

2. Those stats were based pure on Starfire. While Starfire is still our primary spell, wrath is more important then it was in the Burning Crusade.

3. Also, several things about the game have changed since then that may affect the value of each stat. For instance when I wrote that post I assumed the NG did not affect the GCD. The current conventional wisdom is that it does.

I do think those numbers are fairly close but I doubt they are 100% accurate. I do plan on updating that information, I just havent' gotten around to it yet. I hope to do it soon.

I would change them to Hit:1.7, Int:.35, Spi .15, but that's about it. They'll change again with new tiers. Ideally, you'd want your gear to be 0 for Hit, 1 for everything else (except stats, obviously), we might get close in Icecrown.

• Arawethion · 01/13/09, 2:09 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

I would change them to Hit:1.7, Int:.35, Spi .15, but that's about it. They'll change again with new tiers. Ideally, you'd want your gear to be 0 for Hit, 1 for everything else (except stats, obviously), we might get close in Icecrown.

Also worth noting that when you're in the wide range where you can gem to hitcap, 1 hit rating is effectively worth 9/8 of a spellpower.

Cdin · 01/13/09, 4:14 PM

Originally Posted by Adoriele

I would change them to Hit:1.7, Int:.35, Spi .15, but that's about it. They'll change again with new tiers. Ideally, you'd want your gear to be 0 for Hit, 1 for everything else (except stats, obviously), we might get close in Icecrown.

Off the top of my head your hit value looks a little high, but it doesn't really matter. Either way the rule is to hit cap.

As far as Crit and Haste, I personally doubt that they will every be equal in value to Spell Power. I know that Crit got really close in T6 and haste passed spell power in T5, but Wrath is a much different game. We start with so much Crit and haste now that they are really far behind spell power.

Then again, I haven't rerun the numbers yet.

Angelfire · 01/14/09, 3:49 AM

Originally Posted by Moonwhisper

Very nice thread Ashaera, keep up the good work.

I missed 2 information that I believe are important for moonkin newcomers (and dummies).

1. Table of Hit cap / Soft hit cap with balance of power / ... with iFF / draenei racial buff and combinations thereof
Hit cap for dps casters on bosses lvl 83+ is:

446 (17%) --> no talents/buffs or whatsoever included.
341 (14%) --> with 2/2 in Balance of Power talent
263 (10%) --> with 2/2 in Balance of Power talent and Misery (priest talent) or improved FF (3/3)
236 (9%) --> with BoP and Misery/iFF and a draenei in grp. (heroic presence draenei racial buff)

Not wanting to state the obvious, but since this is a post for "Dummies", I believe you meant:

446 (17%) --> no talents/buffs or whatsoever included.
341 (13%) --> with 2/2 in Balance of Power talent (this talents gives 4% to hit with 2 talents points)
263 (10%) --> with 2/2 in Balance of Power talent and Misery (priest talent) or improved FF (3/3) (Misery and IFF gives 3% each, not stacking)
236 (9%) --> with BoP and Misery/iFF and a draenei in grp. (heroic presence draenei racial buff)

bethor · 01/14/09, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by Ashaera

*During Heroism -> Drop IS from your rotation as heroism boosted SF in most cases will outperform it. Keep casting MF & use W to proc SF-Eclipses.

Personally during Bloodlust, I SF Spam while keeping MF up... Wrath gets clipped wayyyyy too much with the haste.
Agree / Disagree anyone?

ATheGreat · 01/15/09, 1:47 AM

Originally Posted by bethor

Personally during Bloodlust, I SF Spam while keeping MF up... Wrath gets clipped wayyyyy too much with the haste.
Agree / Disagree anyone?

i'll normally take the time to proc eclipse before i start starfire spamming if it's ready at the beginning of a bloodlust, but if i'm already a good chunk into it and eclipse is still on icd or something, i'll usually let it slide and just mf/sf as needed.

Dude · 01/16/09, 12:02 AM

Originally Posted by Ashaera

<<snip>>
Step 3 - Rotation
IFF = Improved Faerie Fire
IS = Insect Swarm
MF = Moonfire
W = Wrath
SF = Starfire

Strategy at the pull -
IFF->IS->MF->W*x->Eclipse proc -> SF*x
IFF only if you dont have a shadowpriest or other moonkin applying the 3% hit buff.
IS/MF first doesnt matter much, my reasoning behind this order is to secure that Eclipse procs as close to the initial MF cast as possible.

Priorities
*If Eclipse is procced -> Spam SF.
*If Eclipse is on hidden cooldown & all dots are up -> Spam SF
*If Eclipse is on hidden cooldown & dots arent up -> Reapply MF+IS. Reapplication doesnt overlap & reapplying dots fast is key to high owldamage. MF the best spell of the two dots so prioritize that.
*If Eclipse is ready -> Apply dots as needed, spam W if dots are up.

The last few %
*Force of Nature -> Communicate with your shamans & make sure to cast trees just before heroism. Having a warrior use battle shout at this point helps aswell (but less important than heroism).
*During Heroism -> Drop IS from your rotation as heroism boosted SF in most cases will outperform it. Keep casting MF & use W to proc SF-Eclipses.
*[Potion of Speed]- Optimal time to use it is just as Eclipse procs, use it at the time you start spamming 80%+ crit Starfires.

*Plan ahead Most fights involve movement, if you know that you will be forced to move soon (Fx Thaddius) then wait with dot reapplication till your moving anyway -- A fight like Grobbulus involves more constant running, make sure
to get all your movement done while your casting dots & waiting for the global CD anyway. Working on stuff like this & being able to perform it, while wathing for aggro+fissures+lava waves+a 2nd dragon with nasty breath landing behind you, is what seperates the good player from the bad - Any idiot can run a rotation on Patchwerk.
<<snip>>

I'm just starting to level my druid and I have decided to go moonkin until 80. I have searched this thread and did not find any references to shot rotation macros. Do raiding boomkin use them? Is it as simple as taking the rotation above and creating a macro from it?

trismegistus · 01/16/09, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by Dude

I'm just starting to level my druid and I have decided to go moonkin until 80. I have searched this thread and did not find any references to shot rotation macros. Do raiding boomkin use them? Is it as simple as taking the rotation above and creating a macro from it?

Balance spec Druids don't really use macros; you just setup your main spells in order to your key-pressing preference and go for it.

Ex.

1-Wrath
2-Moonfire
3-Starfire
4-Insect Swarm
5-Entangling Roots
6-Starfall
7-Hurricane

I put Barkskin on a hotkey for T and Cyclone on V

As far as leveling, I prefer to root, Starfire, IS, Wrath (until dead). On ranged mobs, I usually skip the root part. I typically only use MF when tagging a group to Barkskin + Hurricane or to finish off a mob. I didn't even spec into Typhoon or Starfall until post level 75.

Dude · 01/16/09, 12:57 AM

Originally Posted by trismegistus

Balance spec Druids don't really use macros; you just setup your main spells in order to your key-pressing preference and go for it.

Ex.

1-Wrath
2-Moonfire
3-Starfire
4-Insect Swarm
5-Entangling Roots
6-Starfall
7-Hurricane

I put Barkskin on a hotkey for T and Cyclone on V

As far as leveling, I prefer to root, Starfire, IS, Wrath (until dead). On ranged mobs, I usually skip the root part. I typically only use MF when tagging a group to Barkskin + Hurricane or to finish off a mob. I didn't even spec into Typhoon or Starfall until post level 75.

Thanks for the response. I'll give it a go.

wildhealer · 01/16/09, 8:39 AM

I am confuse,

Why i need to use SF in eclipse hide CD ?

is more effetive use Wrath Spam because damage wrath is to hight.

IFF (+3% critical chance), MF, IS wrath spam, Proc Eclipse spam SF, if in Bloodlust drink a postion os Speed, starfire in 0.8 seconds.

Clipse in HIde CD, dot again and spam Wrathx, proc ecplise Spam SF...

For me if you use SF and dont have 100% sure starfire crit, i think is a good ideia spam wrath.

Ashaera · 01/16/09, 9:43 AM

@Wildhealer -> I can only show you the door, you have to walk through it.

You dont have to believe in my way being better if you dont want too - By all means if you can provide math with another & better approach then go ahead.

Cdin · 01/16/09, 6:15 PM

Originally Posted by Cdin

A poster on the Moonkin Respository is saying there is a possible bug with the damage added by the [Idol of the Shooting Star].

Here is his Bug report on the offical forums.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> [Bug] Druid item: Idol of the Shooting Star

Some one reported this on the eu forums and get a blue responce.

Fear not, this is in fact a known issue which is currently planned to be fixed in an upcoming content patch. Apologies for any inconvenience it may have caused, but thank you for your report!

World of Warcraft (en) Forums -> Test: Idol shooting star gives the wrong sp

Moonwhisper · 01/18/09, 9:59 AM

Originally Posted by Angelfire

Not wanting to state the obvious, but since this is a post for "Dummies", I believe you meant:

446 (17%) --> no talents/buffs or whatsoever included.
341 (13%) --> with 2/2 in Balance of Power talent (this talents gives 4% to hit with 2 talents points)
263 (10%) --> with 2/2 in Balance of Power talent and Misery (priest talent) or improved FF (3/3) (Misery and IFF gives 3% each, not stacking)
236 (9%) --> with BoP and Misery/iFF and a draenei in grp. (heroic presence draenei racial buff)

sorry, you are absolutely right. thx for correcting it.

Moonwhisper · 01/18/09, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by Cdin

Just so you know those numbers were calculated using a beta version of the game. Therefore they have a couple of issues.

1. Since I didn't have access to the beta I had to estimate what the average levels of Spell Power, Crit, and Haste would be. In actuallity I think I think I should have used higher base values for each of those stats.

2. Those stats were based pure on Starfire. While Starfire is still our primary spell, wrath is more important then it was in the Burning Crusade.

3. Also, several things about the game have changed since then that may affect the value of each stat. For instance when I wrote that post I assumed the NG did not affect the GCD. The current conventional wisdom is that it does.

I do think those numbers are fairly close but I doubt they are 100% accurate. I do plan on updating that information, I just havent' gotten around to it yet. I hope to do it soon.

Thanks graylo for your comments to the reliability of aforementioned ratios and looking forward to see updated numbers on your blog. (I am great fan of your blog btw

)

The reason for posting these hit/crit/haste/etc ratios was to give newcomers a fairly good possibility to value different gear items in regard to their influence on dps and only dps.
A help for answering a typical question like "Should I take the +30hit bracers if I can choose +20crit +30haste"? This is still even a question when I am hit capped, because I might switch other gear items as well.
If you apply a weighing scheme that models your stat based factors on your "general" dps like the proposed, you might recognize which one of these is the more valuable for moonkins in general. However, every more advanced player will recognize that gear stats need also to facilitate all existing gear and playstyle like rotations, raid tasks, etc. and vice versa.

Such "weighing" score system where you can get a "more" objective ranking of items were recently included into wowhead.com and others. IMO a great thing.

Narninian · 01/18/09, 1:40 PM

I noticed this:

Originally Posted by Ashaera

This is roughly my idea of best in slot pre Ulduar...

[Idol of the Shooting Star] -Razuvious

Originally Posted by Cdin

This agrees almost completely with a blog post I did a few weeks ago.

Originally Posted by hquest

And this is what I am currently wearing/planning to get to my char ....
Relic: [Idol of the Shooting Star]

Originally Posted by Zakariya

My plan is basically above, but since I don't like wearing cloth

Wouldn't [Idol of the Raven Goddess] provide more raid dps, even with crit rating providing less benefit than at 70 ? (but now providing it to the whole raid). 20 Critical strike rating is an extra 0.44% chance to crit for all the casters in the raid (including healers) vs. 165 spellpower on a spell that is maybe 40% - 60% percent of the pre-idol damage on *one* caster. (so in effect more like 80 spellpower).

Using this raid makeup:
MMO-Champion RaidComp

You'd be providing 20 crit rating to 6 offensive casters (with yourself included), effectively 120 crit rating, with some of the crit being possibly more beneficial (mages?), and some less beneficial (affliction lock ?) then for yourself.

This has the extra benefit of providing your healers with more crit as well, though that can't be counted as a dps benefit, and that is your role as a moonkin.

Ashaera · 01/18/09, 1:43 PM

@Narninian - Yes, but [Idol of the Raven Goddess] is being changed to a personal 0.44% crit in patch 3.08.

Narninian · 01/18/09, 1:44 PM

Originally Posted by Ashaera

@Narninian - Yes, but [Idol of the Raven Goddess] is being changed to a personal 0.44% crit in patch 3.08.

ahh - missed that change, apologies.

Frdmfghtr · 01/18/09, 3:03 PM

Originally Posted by wildhealer

I am confuse,

Why i need to use SF in eclipse hide CD ?

is more effetive use Wrath Spam because damage wrath is to hight.

IFF (+3% critical chance), MF, IS wrath spam, Proc Eclipse spam SF, if in Bloodlust drink a postion os Speed, starfire in 0.8 seconds.

Clipse in HIde CD, dot again and spam Wrathx, proc ecplise Spam SF...

For me if you use SF and dont have 100% sure starfire crit, i think is a good ideia spam wrath.

You want to use starfire during eclipse CD for the following reasons

1. With the starfire glyph you are increasing your damage by not having to cast moonfire as often
2. starfire I'm fairly sure scales better with spellpower
3. Ideally, you are using the starfire idol off Raz
4. Starfire doesn't clip when nature's grace procs (if you have any haste wrath goes below GCD with Nature's Grace)

and I'm sure there are more reasons to pick starfire over wrath. I see no advantage to using wrath during the Eclipse CD.

Angelfire · 01/19/09, 4:33 AM

Starfire is also more mana-efficient, for those who care about that.
And yea, Starfire scales better with spell power by definition, but since Blizz changed the co-efficients for Wrath, this is not really noticeable anymore.

Twilightmoons · 01/19/09, 10:23 AM

First off i just wnat to say thanks to Ashaera and everyone who posted on here, this has helped me a lot.

But i do have a question on Dps. On a Naxx 10/25 man run (considering buffs and all) on average how much Dps should i be aiming for or what i should expect?

Humbaba · 01/19/09, 10:35 AM

Originally Posted by Twilightmoons

First off i just wnat to say thanks to Ashaera and everyone who posted on here, this has helped me a lot.

But i do have a question on Dps. On a Naxx 10/25 man run (considering buffs and all) on average how much Dps should i be aiming for or what i should expect?

It depends entirely upon your gear. There are many parses linked in the other moonkin threads. You can also fire up Rawr and/or WrathCalcs to get an idea of where you should be in your exact gear.