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02/09/09, 1:23 PM
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#136
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Von Kaiser
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Finally got some boss-level numbers for resistance (from Sapphiron), details can be found in this post in the Resistance thread.
The important conclusion is that while it was suspected already, I'm now pretty positive that 415 is not the appropriate constant to use for bosses in the resistance formula. A constant of 500 matches the data obtained so far.
As always, this is still very subject to further testing, and I plan to get some data at two more resist values on Tuesday. What is most relevant to this thread is that while we'd anecdotally mentioned it already, 415 Fire Resist will not eliminate the chance of 30% resists.
If the constant of 500 holds, the new thresholds to obtain each minimum possible resist are:
125 (10%)
215 (20%)
334 (30%)
500 (40%)
750 (50%)
Here are the updated tables for average/max breath damage taken:
10 Man
| FR | Avg Resist | Max Breath | Min HP | | 125 | 20% | 45374 | 60499 | | 215 | 30% | 40333 | 53777 | | 334 | 40% | 35291 | 47055 | | 500 | 50% | 30249 | 40333 |
25 Man
| FR | Avg Resist | Max Breath | Min HP | | 125 | 20% | 56716 | 75621 | | 215 | 30% | 50414 | 67219 | | 334 | 40% | 44112 | 58816 | | 500 | 50% | 37810 | 50414 |
I think it's clear that 334 resistance is pretty worth it, given the relative ease of obtaining it without too many sacrifices. Going beyond 334 resistance is definitely a judgment call. In the 10-man, it's definitely not worth going below 47055 pre-pull HP, if you have more than that at 334. However, it's worth keeping in mind that at 334 FR, those big 30% hits have a 25% probability, which decreases the higher you go. At 415 FR, for instance, the likelihood is down to ~12%. Lowering the probability of these big hits can help lower the probability of getting gibbed after a big breath, or increase your chance of surviving if your healer couldn't quite get you to full in time.
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02/09/09, 3:26 PM
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#137
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Bald Bull
Tauren Druid
Lightbringer
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I guess recalculating my FR set is in order then.
Fire Resistance Aura, Lesser Flask of Resistance, Arcanum of Fire Resist, Enchant Cloak - Superior Fire Resistance, Fur Lining - Fire Resist. Results in 285, 49 more is needed from other gear. For me this will come from Shoulders with 41 FR and a Flame Kit.
This is actually comforting for me, the sacrifices I was making to get 415 AND 50k hp were uncomfortable, and I still died to 30% resists, not being topped off, and ending up taking too much physical damage from having lower armor/avoidance.
As an aside, the [Effulgent Skyflare Diamond] still isn't working in the manner listed by others for my FR.
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02/10/09, 3:01 AM
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#138
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Don Flamenco
Night Elf Druid
Runetotem (EU)
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I find very strange 500 as the constant for bosses. Usually WoW uses formulas that care about level difference, basically it should be a 2 variable function like:
F(Resistance, Boss_lvl - My_lvl)
Because boss level minus our level is 3. I espect that the resistance cap is a multiple of 3. I don't know how many data points you have but could 400 + 3*30 = 490 fits the data, or something like that?
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02/10/09, 9:31 AM
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#139
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Von Kaiser
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It's all still very tentative, I just need a lot more data to be "sure" about the constant - the discrete nature of the distribution makes confidence intervals on the constant pretty large. 500 was simply a nice rounded value that was very close for the case with the largest sample size. The 835-sample data I got from Melthu actually indicated a constant of 518. It could be something in between, or there could be another factor (penetration, or some unknown term for the level difference) involved.
That said, if a resistance can be found where only 3 partial resists are possible instead of 4, that would pretty much seal it. If the constant is 500, 125 is such a resistance. Conveniently, this is GOTW + Lesser flask of resistance. I plan to have several people wear this amount next Sapphiron unless I get a log from someone with it first.
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02/10/09, 12:46 PM
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#140
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King Hippo
Human Death Knight
Cenarius
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We finally got 10-man 3D sarth last night, my observation was that with the gear set and enchants listed below, I could survive any breath as long as my disc priest had a bubble on me. Taking up JC last week made it much easier to meet the stamina goals. We did make use of Pain Suppresion, Barksin, and SI, any one of those alone was enough to let me survive a breath.
Special Gears and Enchants:
Fire Resist on Helm
Fire Resist on Bracers
Fire Resist on Cloak
JC trinket w/ prismatic stam gem w/ a 24 stam for the +9 stam bonus
2x prismatic stam gems in Polar Vest for the +12 stam bonus
Gladiator shoulder enchant (+30 stam)
Chromatic Wonder Flask
and I had a Fire Resist totem.
and BoK/Stam, but no imp/command shout
If the Disc Priest was unable to hit a PW:S for a breath during the "bad" time, then he and I had to juggle cooldowns (BS/LS/PS).
WWS parse of the flame breaths if folks are wondering:
Wow Web Stats
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02/10/09, 2:05 PM
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#141
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Bald Bull
Tauren Druid
Lightbringer
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Last Night was my first kill in 10 man as well, using the 334 FR gear I listed previously, ended up going with 3 tanks (Warrior on Drakes, DK on Whelps/Blazes). Holy Paladin on me, Resto Shaman on the other tanks, Resto Druid for raid. I ended up taking 5 breaths during the gib phase (we don't go into portals until all Drakes are dead, though we likely could, SI carried me through 2 Breaths (with Frenzied Regen to make sure I was topped off), Barkskin was used on first and fifth, and a fire pot for the 3rd. I actually carry a stack of Frozen Runes from old Naxx in case of a 6th bad breath. Honestly I see no reason to not to use the cooldowns available to you ever time, FR pots are cheap and cooldowns are free.
Neone, one thing to remember is that you're well within the range for getting 20% Breaths, so the max breath going to be 51973, which is actually above your full health even with Survival Instincts (with grace take off another 1.5k, which is still very close) I don't know why as a JC/LW you aren't going for the minimum to guarantee a 30% resist.
Nightcrowler, considering blizzard doesn't use a multiple of 3 for Spell Miss %, I'm willing to accept an arbitrary 25% difference for Bosses Spell Resists. Another possibility is that we're still looking at Piecewise Linear functions, except with 10 of them, this would explain Minimum Resists and the "curve" in resists people see.
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02/10/09, 3:26 PM
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#142
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King Hippo
Human Death Knight
Cenarius
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Boevis,
My resists from gear is (bracers/helm/cloak) 105, and with Fire Res totem (130) I'm at 235. Unless I'm missing something, isn't that putting me well into the 30% range according to Shamgarr's chart?
I guess I'm not seeing where you suggest I change..
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02/10/09, 3:39 PM
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#143
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Confused
Troll Druid
Alterac Mountains
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At 235 resist you're in the range of averaging 30% resists, but your worst case scenario is still a 20% resist. Since you can be 1-shot by a maximally charged breath you have to consider the worst case scenario rather than the average. In order to completely remove 20% breaths as a possibility you need 334 resistance, assuming that Shamgarr's most recent findings are correct.
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02/10/09, 4:13 PM
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#144
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King Hippo
Human Death Knight
Cenarius
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Originally Posted by Melthu
At 235 resist you're in the range of averaging 30% resists, but your worst case scenario is still a 20% resist. Since you can be 1-shot by a maximally charged breath you have to consider the worst case scenario rather than the average. In order to completely remove 20% breaths as a possibility you need 334 resistance, assuming that Shamgarr's most recent findings are correct.
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Ah, I was not reading the chart correctly.
I guess it depends who you have healing you... if you have a solid Disc Priest that can time PW:S and keep you topped off, then I'm willing to take the chance at bigger hits (that would otherwise be one-shots), and in practice I never ended up getting one-shot when I was topped off. If we end up going without a disc priest I'll look into getting to 334. Also, I ended up having our boomkin healing during the overlap time, so, while it took longer, there was very little danger, and I was kept topped much easier.
Last edited by Neone : 02/10/09 at 6:03 PM.
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02/10/09, 5:35 PM
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#145
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Von Kaiser
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Ya that chart might be a little confusing, listing average resist when we've been talking about minimum possible resist.
I'd like to mention I feel quite guilty when people mention these numbers I quote as resistances they shoot for... I just hope you're all keeping in mind this is still very tentative data, and a work in progress, so don't be too too mad if you still get one-shot ^^. Keeping logs while you wear various amounts of FR can be very helpful in nailing these numbers down for good soon, so we don't have to keep saying "tentatively...."
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02/10/09, 6:46 PM
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#146
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Bald Bull
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Shamgarr, don't feel too bad. I've now done Sarth3D twice successfully with FR gear, and in both cases I've not been one-shot and the breaths have been well within the predicted values. The thing is that even if you were wrong about the 277/344 chances are it wouldn't matter statistically. 277 was enough to average a 40% resist, and would occasionally get a 20 in theory - but you'd have to get that 20% resist and take a max breath to die, potentially.
It would be interesting to figure out how a mob's damage is determined and what the statistical likelihood of survival is. For instance, at 277 there's about a 4.3% chance of having a 20% resist. That will only kill you if you take a max or close to max breath and don't have a shield up; what are the chances that this happens?
I can provide Sarth logs if that would help. They all have a consistent amount of FR, though the sample size is very small. This is the link to the WWS of our recent night of attempts. The one death I had was due to user error; I didn't bother using barkskin. The total FR used was 345.
Last edited by kalbear : 02/10/09 at 8:28 PM.
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02/13/09, 2:09 AM
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#147
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Von Kaiser
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Without going into too much detail, I think I've got an upper limit on the constant of 520, and lower limit of 505. So practically speaking the 30% threshold should be no higher than 347, and no lower than 338. So wearing 347 FR should be sufficient to eliminate 20% resists, though a few less points may be required.
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02/13/09, 8:10 AM
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#148
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King Hippo
Tauren Druid
Twisting Nether (EU)
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I'm scouring the AH for FR items now.... I assume people are still using some of the Polar set to maintain the HP required?
48k+ and 334 resist doesnt seem that hard to achieve.... and a lot more elegant than just stacking stamina.
Last edited by Daboran : 02/13/09 at 8:49 AM.
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02/13/09, 9:02 AM
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#149
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Druid
Eonar (EU)
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I was tanking sartharion 3D both 25 and 10 few days ago and would like to share my experience.
285 resistance (flask,aura + enchants on cloak head and wrists), full polar set (+ring), JC trinkets. I had ~39.5k hp post Vesperon aura and ~41k+ with warlock pet banished near my tanking position (we had only 1 warrior for shouts and he was busy with dragons tanking).
Apparently I did have some 20% resistances, but it never caused a problem. on 25man the max fire breath damage during the "hard phase" was around 46k, which is easily countered by barkskin, SI, HoS from pala (need to call upon), second barkskin. potion + nightmare seed would make another one, but at this time Shadron is normally dead already.
At this point you might need a bit more healing, cause Sartharion is getting his melee damage boosted, just make sure to warn the raid about it.
After killing Shadron, we are going to Twilight realm and kill both acolytes. If you are still alive at this point - the fight is more or less done.
for 10man we used 3 tanks/3 healers setup.
dps was ench. shaman, hunter, ret paladin, shadow priest.
The target was set to kill Tenebron fast, then clear the area from all adds. After that the focus was on survivalability rather than on making damage, Dpsers were told to stop attacking if they are at 50% HP.
I'd say at this point (Shadron+Vesperon alive), the dragon tank survivalability was more problematic than mine one. We used a warrior on that, so he was saving his shield wall and last stand for this phase, still it's not enough for the full duration. We had quite a few cases when he was gibbed by double breath+some melee and Twilight debuff proc.
As for me (Sarth tank), maximum breath I've taken was sub 38k, with my max HP 39.5k. I was trying to save my cooldowns for "dangerous" cases. For example if there is no lava wall incoming, if I'm topped, healers are standing still and just healing, I didnt use anything. Otherwise, barkskin, potion, SI or frenzied regeneration.
With such rotation, I could tank him infinitely long. Next time I'll bring lvl70 fire res gloves, hopefully that will remove 20% resistances and tanking will be even more safe.
I had holy pal on me 100% time and resto druid hots during shadron+vesperon phase.
The general impression of feral fire res tanking: it's easy and reliable. We had a DK tank on it before, and he was dying quite a lot (not sure, maybe he was not doing right things thou). 75% of gear you will need for it is obtainable by crafts or from pvp - I used pvp hateful pvp gloves for badges and hateful wrists (normally I play resto). Plus a few offspec rolled pieces and the full set is ready.
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02/13/09, 12:48 PM
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#150
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Druid
Dark Iron
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So I'm at a bit of a dilemma and I thought I'd post here to ask some advice.
We've recently had a few adjustments to our normal 10 man that has made it more important for me to rely only on my cool downs to get through the dangerous breaths.
I'm currently not a leather worker and while I'm strongly tempted to level it, I'd hate for its only use to be sarth 3D 10 man and then no more. I still have a full lvl 70 FR set that I'm looking at robbing for some pieces as the AH hasn't been kind with Fire Prot greens.
Currently I'm down to the following decision.
[Blastguard Pants] vs [Leggings of the Honored]
OR
[Phoenix-fire Band] vs [Gatekeeper]
It would be my task to tank Sarth until completion of the fight as the drake tank is gearing specifically to live through the double shadow breaths which seem to have been a problem. My concern is that by switching these level 70 pieces in I'm loosing too many "other" stats like agility, dodge, armor, hit that will make tanking the fight more difficult.
The rest of the set I'm using is as follows.
Valorous Head - FR Enchant - Effulgent + 7agi/11stam
Boundless Ambition
Valorous Shoulders - Greater Pinnacle - 16 agi (Unfortunately I only have one pair of 7.5 shoulders)
Cloak of the Shadowed Sun - FR Enchant
Polar Vest - 10 stats - 3x 24 stam gems
Bindings of the Tunneler - 40 stam
Inferno Hardened Gloves - 18 stam
Polar Cord - 3x 24 stam gems
Legs - In question see above
Titanium Frostguard Ring - 24 Stam
Ring 2 is in question see above
Trinket 1 - Essence of Gossamer
Trinket 2 - Indestructible Alchemist's Stone
Origin of Nightmares - Mongoose
EDIT: I forgot to add that I'm using a flask of lesser resistance which gives 82 resist with mixology
Last edited by Habba : 02/13/09 at 1:01 PM.
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