I'm still not quite sure why you don't want the drake tank to take Sarth after the drakes are dead; for me, the opportunity to help on adds, DPS, BR, IV, etc.--and the break from the monotony of calling lava waves, moving left, moving back--is preferable. Anyway, if you have 350,000 threat when the DPS starts DPSing, and (I'm making this number up) Sartharion lives for two minutes after the DPS is on the boss, that means your DPS would have to be doing nearly three thousand more threat per second than you for them to catch up by the end of the fight. I'd say that's impossible.
Edit: Here's a formula. They catch up to you when
Your TPS = DPS TPS + (your initial threat when DPS begins/length of fight after DPS begins)
I guess I am one of those people who like to get a task and to finish it. Our last feral druid tanked sarth the entire fight through without being taunted off of, so I guess the point is I want to be "as good(or better)" than what he was doing.
I guess I am one of those people who like to get a task and to finish it. Our last feral druid tanked sarth the entire fight through without being taunted off of, so I guess the point is I want to be "as good(or better)" than what he was doing.
In all our 3D kills (10 and 25man) I've tanked Sarth start to finish. After the healing intensity during TTorment, the rest of the fight seems trivial to heal and I've never felt remotely threatened. It probably helps that every time we've gotten that far we've had no one dead and healer mana has been fine.
It was honestly more of a concern on the raid leaders part; as my gear isn't quite where the old MT's was.
For both 10 and 25man I am NOT using FR, I am using a Polar set (puts me to ~51k hp raid buffed on 10 man, and about 36% dodge w.o procs).
I usually get about 350k or so threat by the time the 2nd drake is down, so I don't see a concern with it, but appearently the raid leader did.
Is there any way that I can really assure that there wouldn't be a problem? I don't see any issues with how much threat I was pulling in my polar set, they had simply stated "we don't want to take any risks" (we wiped for a good hour as we had 3 totally new tanks to the fight).
The only time I've ever had an issue with threat is people being dumb and starting dps before Sarth even gets to me. I'll usually start using a high threat weapon/idol and pop Enrage/Berserk while positioning. After the first wave comes everyone switches to drakes and I put tank weapon/idol back on.
Using FR is the same reason it is optimal to use high armor on a hard hitting boss. Reducing the size of the big hits makes healing easier than simply living through them. For 10 man it makes tanking Sarth trivial, for 25 man it makes our cooldowns viable to live through a max breath.
There's no sense in being overly proud to tank Sarth from start to finish. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it is optimal to do so. The drake tank will pretty much always have better stats for tanking physical damage (again damage mitigation rather than just survival). Brez and Innervate alone make having them taunt worthwhile. Tanking blazes during enrage in FR is a bonus.
I guess I am one of those people who like to get a task and to finish it. Our last feral druid tanked sarth the entire fight through without being taunted off of, so I guess the point is I want to be "as good(or better)" than what he was doing.
I can somewhat emphasize with this, but at that point the damage received is trivial enough that even a 10man geared tank can tank it, so don't think too much about it.
The only time I've ever had an issue with threat is people being dumb and starting dps before Sarth even gets to me. I'll usually start using a high threat weapon/idol and pop Enrage/Berserk while positioning. After the first wave comes everyone switches to drakes and I put tank weapon/idol back on.
Using FR is the same reason it is optimal to use high armor on a hard hitting boss. Reducing the size of the big hits makes healing easier than simply living through them. For 10 man it makes tanking Sarth trivial, for 25 man it makes our cooldowns viable to live through a max breath.
There's no sense in being overly proud to tank Sarth from start to finish. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it is optimal to do so. The drake tank will pretty much always have better stats for tanking physical damage (again damage mitigation rather than just survival). Brez and Innervate alone make having them taunt worthwhile. Tanking blazes during enrage in FR is a bonus.
Ok well I found the FR part interesting; as we have always tanked it simply in a polar set, without any FR. I guess FR can make it easier, but from what I have experienced, there is no real need to go out of your way and setup a FR set for this encounter.
Another reset; so I guess I'll watch more closely this evening on what my stats sit about; and how hard I am hit for. We have good enough dps that we really only have to GS(or pain suppression, whichever we decide) the first one, and then I barkskin+Survival Instincts the second breath. At that point we don't have to worry about flame breaths.
I could go out of my way and get a FR set built; but because it is so close to 3.1, there doesn't seem much point in doing so, especially if we can do it just as easily in a (much cheaper) polar gear set.
Ok well I found the FR part interesting; as we have always tanked it simply in a polar set, without any FR. I guess FR can make it easier, but from what I have experienced, there is no real need to go out of your way and setup a FR set for this encounter.
Another reset; so I guess I'll watch more closely this evening on what my stats sit about; and how hard I am hit for. We have good enough dps that we really only have to GS(or pain suppression, whichever we decide) the first one, and then I barkskin+Survival Instincts the second breath. At that point we don't have to worry about flame breaths.
I could go out of my way and get a FR set built; but because it is so close to 3.1, there doesn't seem much point in doing so, especially if we can do it just as easily in a (much cheaper) polar gear set.
Again, this really depends on whether we are talking about 10- or 25-man, and your group composition. In 25-man you will generally have a lot of options for external cooldowns and plenty of HPS going onto the main tank. In 10-man there is more strain on the healers; furthermore, some group compositions don't have any external cooldowns available (say, resto druid/resto shaman healer combo), and some group compositions with lower or fewer DPS might have Shadron and particularly Vesperon up for awhile, in which case the FR becomes more valuable.
Note also that the polar gear is included in most of the stamina/FR sets people have talked about in this thread. Amusingly enough, I actually have more frost resistance than fire resistance in my fire resist set. Edit: how is the polar gear "cheaper"? The enchants are quite cheap compared to epic craftables, and the flasks are made from cheap mats.
how is the polar gear "cheaper"? The enchants are quite cheap compared to epic craftables, and the flasks are made from cheap mats.
It's the fact that you have to either A) swap the enchants out for that one encounter or B) get the 2nd set of gear and spend the gold to enchant/gem it. It doesn't seem worth the effort to get the FR set if you can easily do without it.
Another reset; so I guess I'll watch more closely this evening on what my stats sit about; and how hard I am hit for. We have good enough dps that we really only have to GS(or pain suppression, whichever we decide) the first one, and then I barkskin+Survival Instincts the second breath. At that point we don't have to worry about flame breaths.
This has always been the main point. With an FR set over 340 you really don't need any outside cooldowns in either 10 or 25 man versions.
For 25 man, I usually only take 1-3 fully buffed breaths and only one cooldown is needed to survive even a max damage breath. I'll use SI on the first breath and watch the timer on it, the buff is usually still up for the second. On the third breath I'll use Barkskin. Just to be safe I'll usually tell a priest to be ready with GS just in case a 4th is needed, but I very rarely end up calling for it.
In the 10 man, you really only need the cooldowns to survive a max breath. Most of the breaths won't put you in danger even fully buffed. I'll still use them exactly the same as 25 man just to be safe. However, as already mentioned, using Barkskin first will allow it to come back up again for another.
Removing reliance on external cooldowns is a huge gain in stability for the encounter. I'd much rather not have to rely on someone using their cooldowns too slow or hoping for RNG to be kind and not deliver max damage breaths.
Making the FR set really isn't hard. I still use the 70 epic gloves and have a green ring and bracer (with LW enchant). I put the FR enchant on an old tank cloak and the FR enchant on my [Hood of the Exodus]. This is the hardest fight in the game and nothing else needs the full tank enchant - it's only a few extra points anyway. Add on a resist flask and you're there.
I confess that, lacking any other challenging encounter to tank, I simply put the FR enchants on my primary tank set. People looking at my armory probably think I'm a little nuts, but it's not like there's any tangible impact on my tanking of Kel'Thuzad... The helm enchant is actually a decent enchant by itself, and I'm okay with having a teensy bit less avoidance in all encounters to make my life easier in the one that is actually a challenge each reset.
In the 10 man, you really only need the cooldowns to survive a max breath. Most of the breaths won't put you in danger even fully buffed. I'll still use them exactly the same as 25 man just to be safe. However, as already mentioned, using Barkskin first will allow it to come back up again for another.
The danger in 10-man is not just a big breath. It's taking a big breath and having the healer be unable to heal you up before he does a few swings. If a shadow fissures spawns beneath him, he may have to move, etc.
So, in 25-man you use cooldowns in order to not get 1-shotted. In 10-man you use them so you don't dangerously low on health.
exodous helm resistance enchant/meta
crafted cape resistance enchant
wyrmrest exalted bracers fire enchant
magtheridon burning crusade resistance ring
Other pieces are naxx25 quality avoidance gear. One breath for 41k His melee is quite substantial near the end, only spec tank for this encounter.
Points of interest are the ToT tank focuses next to the raid frames to see drake health, boss timers for drakes landing, chat frame enhancement to see when drakes summon their acolytes. Another note is infected wounds seems to penetrate shaddron's protective shield on the boss?
Another note is infected wounds seems to penetrate shaddron's protective shield on the boss?
I can confirm this. I use the following macro to refresh IW while Shadron and Vesperon are up:
/cast Mangle - Bear
/stopattack
I only use it after a mostly-resisted breath, when my healer's not stressed on healing, but depending on the breath luck I can keep at least 1 stack of IW up through the entire encounter. Other than that, I just spend the time on Shadron and Vesperon refreshing Demo Roar and hovering over my emergency buttons.
If it falls off mangle/maul at the same time does not have a double twilight torment proc, and considering the low hit/expertise in typical sets it could be considered beneficial to macro both together. I have mangle separate for low threat situations (if they exist anymore) but this is my only maul mutton and I typically tap this macro every second to keep maul queued and time mangle when off cooldown/gcd.
1:20 on my youtube infected wounds confirmed to penetrate the protective shield while shaddron's acolyte is active. X-Perl increases the size of the debuff, omni CC adds the timer to the debuff.
This is odd. I have tried many many times to put up IW while Sarth is immune and have never been successful. Even spamming abilities before TT starts, I don't see it apply.
This is odd. I have tried many many times to put up IW while Sarth is immune and have never been successful. Even spamming abilities before TT starts, I don't see it apply.
What i've noticed is that only Mangle can apply it, since Mangle has an effect that pierces Gift of Shadron. Pestilence combined with Sartharion's large hitbox has caused me to lose a single-stack of Infected Wounds more than once due to Icy Touch, as well.
You can also use BigWigs. It gives a loud ding and screen flash when the acolyte spawns.
Yep, but for me that is not enough information. I have seen some 10+ sec gaps between the arrival of the accolyte, and the actual Twilight Torment debuff showing up. The accolyte arriving does not equal Twilight Torment being cast. So I guess the presence of the debuff is the critical information, not the presence of the accolyte. My 2 cents though.
The portal and the acolyte appearing can be tracked in the chat frame as yellow text (might be emote with default mods). I don't know what mod enhances this to appear in the middle of the screen but its how I track the acolytes presence.
Deadly Boss Mods is my guess for the chat frame enhancement.
I've had a wipe where the combat log showed me gaining Twilight Torment under a second before the breath hit (and killed me since I didn't use any cooldowns yet). Since then, I use my first cooldown on any breath 10 seconds after Vesperon lands, no addon is going to help in the situation that killed me.
What i've noticed is that only Mangle can apply it, since Mangle has an effect that pierces Gift of Shadron. Pestilence combined with Sartharion's large hitbox has caused me to lose a single-stack of Infected Wounds more than once due to Icy Touch, as well.
This matches my experiences. Mangle will apply the IW debuf while Maul does not seem to. I don't use it during TT though - with only 1 drake dead the physical damage is not too bad - but I have not compared the TT damage to the reduced physical damage to know which is worse. I just don't want to do anything that could affect the healers ability to top me off before the next super breath.
On the subject of having the drake tank taunt off after the drakes are dead, we found this to be a huge help in 10 man Sarth - running with a resto druid, holy priest and an ele shaman (2.5 healers) the extra tank mitigation plus having my innervate available was what finally put us over the top on the fight as our healers were close to OOM at the end of the drake phase - and it is really painful to wipe after getting all three drakes down. On 25 man I have almost always tanked all the way to the end of the fight although based on our 10 man experience more recently we had the drake tank take over on 25 man also.
On the subject of having the drake tank taunt off after the drakes are dead, we found this to be a huge help in 10 man Sarth - running with a resto druid, holy priest and an ele shaman (2.5 healers) the extra tank mitigation plus having my innervate available was what finally put us over the top on the fight as our healers were close to OOM at the end of the drake phase - and it is really painful to wipe after getting all three drakes down. On 25 man I have almost always tanked all the way to the end of the fight although based on our 10 man experience more recently we had the drake tank take over on 25 man also.
One point to add also, even in Polar gear me spamming Swipe/Mangle/glyphed Maul is a lot more dps on the adds in Phase 3 (we have a Warrior drake tank), with myself and the add tank (Pali/DK) in that phase we can kill every add that spawns very fast with no help from the dps.
We only really falling behind in the last period where everything goes beserk and then we can easily tank them all between us while Sarth is finished off.
Can someone who knows a bit about this provide a summary? I've read through several pages and I haven't been able to find one set that just plain "works". Especially given the latest patches with some nerfs/changes to cooldowns. My guild is needing me to get a tank set together for MTing 25-man Sarth 3D. I figured on using my normal tank gear, with the 3 pieces of polar gear enchanted with Fire Resist if possible, gemmed for stamina as well. However, I see that some people have had luck with regemming EVERYTHING with stamina, becoming a huge mana sponge. Which would help on this fight, I admit.. but just wondering if there's a summary somewhere with a really good set/enchant list.
03/31/09, 12:10 PM
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