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Old 03/31/09, 6:38 AM   #271
Inaiwae
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Sylvanas (EU)
Originally Posted by Vaccine View Post
Do people use Fire res because their DPS is slow? I can imagine if the fight lasted a lot longer fire res could come out on top but I don't really see the use of it for say 4-5 or less "killer" breaths.
Measuring the speed via number of breaths is misleading because they are quite random. You have 20 secs SI, 12 sec barkskin. Are you killing Shadron within lets say 40 seconds after Torment comes in? If yes then you dont need FR (i guess, not sure if Barkskin alone is enough with MotW and FR aura). If not, then you rely on external cooldowns. Or you rely on luck.

We are not that fast, on our attempts i usually take 1-3 breaths without any cooldown available, so i use FR set (345 fr, 39k hp during fight).

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Old 03/31/09, 8:54 AM   #272
CiC
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Perenolde (EU)
Originally Posted by Daisil View Post

Does anybody have any suggestions for threat-optimization on this fight? The concern with my guild (because I am undergeared compared to our old druid MT who is now MIA), is that I won't have enough threat to hold it once they down the 3 drakes. We did this just the other night and I was sitting at ~500k threat or so (if my memory serves me right), when they had the warrior taunt it off of me.
oO i can go afk after the drakes are down for i have so much threat on sarth, no one comes near me.
doenst matter which gear i took. tanked him in FR-Gear and in Sta-Gear.
The only time u cant make threat on him is when an Shadron-add is alife.

Do people use Fire res because their DPS is slow? I can imagine if the fight lasted a lot longer fire res could come out on top but I don't really see the use of it for say 4-5 or less "killer" breaths.
Yes u can use FR du save ur life
It is a bit easier i would say if you have low DPS especially for the healers. He doesnt hit that hard on meele attacks.

Last edited by CiC : 03/31/09 at 9:25 AM.

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Old 03/31/09, 9:45 AM   #273
foxglove
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Uldum
Originally Posted by bludwork View Post
So to summarize (sorry i'm a warrior who is researching this for possible feral sarth tank for 25mans)

1. use full frost set fully stam gemmed.
2. 317 FR from :

FR head enchant
FR cloak enchant
FR bracer enchant
FR totem from shaman (or paly aura)

3. about 49k hp buffed
4. minimum hp after 25% debuff ??????

Rotation for breaths :-

-SI for the first breath and then if SI still up take the other breath too
-Once SI wears off useBarkskin and Fire pot (make macro)
-Pain suppression for next breath

Would this be accurate?
I think you are blending the "common wisdom" for 10- and 25-man a little bit. I've not used my full FR on 25-man, because (as a non-LW) it represents a significant loss of mitigation and avoidance over my normal gear, which (as I discovered over the past month) really does add up to a lot of incoming damage. I can't make the 25-man "no external cooldown" 58k health/340 FR anyway. (Remember the effective health needed is substantially bigger on 25). I just use the helm and cloak enchants, aura, and and a magic resistance flask (Chromatic Wonder for 25-mans).

In 25-man, I call for Pain Suppression on the first breath, since it offers substantial damage reduction rather than merely more health to heal; and Hand of Sacrifice on the second. I then use SI and Frenzied Regeneration for the third and fourth breaths, and barksin and a fire pot are reserved for a fifth if we get there, or for an emergency where I'm not fully topped off. Generally if things are going alright we will kill Shadron by the third breath, so the rest after that is just to help the healers catch up on healing.

I use an entirely different gear set and cooldown rotation on 10-man because the dynamics are so different and (for us anyways) the drakes are up much longer. I use exactly 340 FR (cape and helm enchants; level 70 FR chest and pants; Flask of Lesser Resistance; totem or pally aura) and roughly 49K HP buffed, or 51k-ish when I have Commanding Shout or Blood Pact. For me, 10-man is much more about offsetting my incoming damage while Vesperon and his Acolytes are alive, rather than merely surviving breaths.

In 10-man, I use barkskin on the first breath, fire pot on the second, and SI on the third and fourth. Using Barkskin first means you will usually have it again by the 6th breath since the cooldown is short. I use a healthstone immediately after any breath that is not mostly resisted. Frenzied Regen is usually paired with SI, but not if I get two good resists. I only ask for a cooldown from my healer (usually a holy pally or disc priest) when multiple Vesperon acolytes are up, around the 5th breath; that way, the damage reduction applies to my physical damage taken as well when that starts to be a big concern. (That's also when I use the dodge effect on my Monarch Crab, to make it easier for my healer to catch up). Then barkskin is back up again, and perhaps a nightmare seed sometime after that if the drakes are really dragging. By the time I am out of emergency buttons Vesperon is typically dead and the DK tank takes Sarth off me.

Last edited by foxglove : 03/31/09 at 10:36 AM. Reason: no, I don't have 49k HP unbuffed...

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Old 03/31/09, 10:43 AM   #274
Daisil
Von Kaiser
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Illidan
Originally Posted by CiC View Post
oO i can go afk after the drakes are down for i have so much threat on sarth, no one comes near me.
doenst matter which gear i took. tanked him in FR-Gear and in Sta-Gear.
The only time u cant make threat on him is when an Shadron-add is alife.



Yes u can use FR du save ur life
It is a bit easier i would say if you have low DPS especially for the healers. He doesn't hit that hard on meele attacks.
It was honestly more of a concern on the raid leaders part; as my gear isn't quite where the old MT's was.

For both 10 and 25man I am NOT using FR, I am using a Polar set (puts me to ~51k hp raid buffed on 10 man, and about 36% dodge w.o procs).

I usually get about 350k or so threat by the time the 2nd drake is down, so I don't see a concern with it, but appearently the raid leader did.

Is there any way that I can really assure that there wouldn't be a problem? I don't see any issues with how much threat I was pulling in my polar set, they had simply stated "we don't want to take any risks" (we wiped for a good hour as we had 3 totally new tanks to the fight).

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Old 03/31/09, 11:03 AM   #275
foxglove
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Uldum
Originally Posted by Daisil View Post
It was honestly more of a concern on the raid leaders part; as my gear isn't quite where the old MT's was.

For both 10 and 25man I am NOT using FR, I am using a Polar set (puts me to ~51k hp raid buffed on 10 man, and about 36% dodge w.o procs).

I usually get about 350k or so threat by the time the 2nd drake is down, so I don't see a concern with it, but appearently the raid leader did.

Is there any way that I can really assure that there wouldn't be a problem? I don't see any issues with how much threat I was pulling in my polar set, they had simply stated "we don't want to take any risks" (we wiped for a good hour as we had 3 totally new tanks to the fight).
I'm still not quite sure why you don't want the drake tank to take Sarth after the drakes are dead; for me, the opportunity to help on adds, DPS, BR, IV, etc.--and the break from the monotony of calling lava waves, moving left, moving back--is preferable. Anyway, if you have a 350,000 threat lead when the DPS starts DPSing, and (I'm making this number up) Sartharion lives for two minutes after the DPS is on the boss, that means your DPS would have to be doing nearly three thousand more threat per second than you for them to catch up by the end of the fight. I'd say that's impossible.

Edit: Here's a formula you can give your raid leader. They catch up to you when
DPS TPS = MT TPS + ((MT threat lead when DPS begins)/(length of fight after DPS begins))

Last edited by foxglove : 03/31/09 at 11:19 AM. Reason: made formula easier to understand

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Old 03/31/09, 11:10 AM   #276
Daisil
Von Kaiser
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Illidan
Originally Posted by foxglove View Post
I'm still not quite sure why you don't want the drake tank to take Sarth after the drakes are dead; for me, the opportunity to help on adds, DPS, BR, IV, etc.--and the break from the monotony of calling lava waves, moving left, moving back--is preferable. Anyway, if you have 350,000 threat when the DPS starts DPSing, and (I'm making this number up) Sartharion lives for two minutes after the DPS is on the boss, that means your DPS would have to be doing nearly three thousand more threat per second than you for them to catch up by the end of the fight. I'd say that's impossible.

Edit: Here's a formula. They catch up to you when
Your TPS = DPS TPS + (your initial threat when DPS begins/length of fight after DPS begins)
I guess I am one of those people who like to get a task and to finish it. Our last feral druid tanked sarth the entire fight through without being taunted off of, so I guess the point is I want to be "as good(or better)" than what he was doing.

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Old 03/31/09, 11:15 AM   #277
tbsp
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Andorhal
Originally Posted by Daisil View Post
I guess I am one of those people who like to get a task and to finish it. Our last feral druid tanked sarth the entire fight through without being taunted off of, so I guess the point is I want to be "as good(or better)" than what he was doing.
In all our 3D kills (10 and 25man) I've tanked Sarth start to finish. After the healing intensity during TTorment, the rest of the fight seems trivial to heal and I've never felt remotely threatened. It probably helps that every time we've gotten that far we've had no one dead and healer mana has been fine.

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Old 03/31/09, 12:00 PM   #278
Mijae
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Daisil View Post
It was honestly more of a concern on the raid leaders part; as my gear isn't quite where the old MT's was.

For both 10 and 25man I am NOT using FR, I am using a Polar set (puts me to ~51k hp raid buffed on 10 man, and about 36% dodge w.o procs).

I usually get about 350k or so threat by the time the 2nd drake is down, so I don't see a concern with it, but appearently the raid leader did.

Is there any way that I can really assure that there wouldn't be a problem? I don't see any issues with how much threat I was pulling in my polar set, they had simply stated "we don't want to take any risks" (we wiped for a good hour as we had 3 totally new tanks to the fight).
The only time I've ever had an issue with threat is people being dumb and starting dps before Sarth even gets to me. I'll usually start using a high threat weapon/idol and pop Enrage/Berserk while positioning. After the first wave comes everyone switches to drakes and I put tank weapon/idol back on.

Using FR is the same reason it is optimal to use high armor on a hard hitting boss. Reducing the size of the big hits makes healing easier than simply living through them. For 10 man it makes tanking Sarth trivial, for 25 man it makes our cooldowns viable to live through a max breath.

There's no sense in being overly proud to tank Sarth from start to finish. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it is optimal to do so. The drake tank will pretty much always have better stats for tanking physical damage (again damage mitigation rather than just survival). Brez and Innervate alone make having them taunt worthwhile. Tanking blazes during enrage in FR is a bonus.


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Old 03/31/09, 12:54 PM   #279
david0925
Don Flamenco
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Proudmoore
Originally Posted by Daisil View Post
I guess I am one of those people who like to get a task and to finish it. Our last feral druid tanked sarth the entire fight through without being taunted off of, so I guess the point is I want to be "as good(or better)" than what he was doing.
I can somewhat emphasize with this, but at that point the damage received is trivial enough that even a 10man geared tank can tank it, so don't think too much about it.

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Old 03/31/09, 1:14 PM   #280
Daisil
Von Kaiser
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Illidan
Originally Posted by Mijae View Post
The only time I've ever had an issue with threat is people being dumb and starting dps before Sarth even gets to me. I'll usually start using a high threat weapon/idol and pop Enrage/Berserk while positioning. After the first wave comes everyone switches to drakes and I put tank weapon/idol back on.

Using FR is the same reason it is optimal to use high armor on a hard hitting boss. Reducing the size of the big hits makes healing easier than simply living through them. For 10 man it makes tanking Sarth trivial, for 25 man it makes our cooldowns viable to live through a max breath.

There's no sense in being overly proud to tank Sarth from start to finish. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it is optimal to do so. The drake tank will pretty much always have better stats for tanking physical damage (again damage mitigation rather than just survival). Brez and Innervate alone make having them taunt worthwhile. Tanking blazes during enrage in FR is a bonus.
Ok well I found the FR part interesting; as we have always tanked it simply in a polar set, without any FR. I guess FR can make it easier, but from what I have experienced, there is no real need to go out of your way and setup a FR set for this encounter.


Another reset; so I guess I'll watch more closely this evening on what my stats sit about; and how hard I am hit for. We have good enough dps that we really only have to GS(or pain suppression, whichever we decide) the first one, and then I barkskin+Survival Instincts the second breath. At that point we don't have to worry about flame breaths.

I could go out of my way and get a FR set built; but because it is so close to 3.1, there doesn't seem much point in doing so, especially if we can do it just as easily in a (much cheaper) polar gear set.

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Old 03/31/09, 1:39 PM   #281
foxglove
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Uldum
Originally Posted by Daisil View Post
Ok well I found the FR part interesting; as we have always tanked it simply in a polar set, without any FR. I guess FR can make it easier, but from what I have experienced, there is no real need to go out of your way and setup a FR set for this encounter.


Another reset; so I guess I'll watch more closely this evening on what my stats sit about; and how hard I am hit for. We have good enough dps that we really only have to GS(or pain suppression, whichever we decide) the first one, and then I barkskin+Survival Instincts the second breath. At that point we don't have to worry about flame breaths.

I could go out of my way and get a FR set built; but because it is so close to 3.1, there doesn't seem much point in doing so, especially if we can do it just as easily in a (much cheaper) polar gear set.
Again, this really depends on whether we are talking about 10- or 25-man, and your group composition. In 25-man you will generally have a lot of options for external cooldowns and plenty of HPS going onto the main tank. In 10-man there is more strain on the healers; furthermore, some group compositions don't have any external cooldowns available (say, resto druid/resto shaman healer combo), and some group compositions with lower or fewer DPS might have Shadron and particularly Vesperon up for awhile, in which case the FR becomes more valuable.

Note also that the polar gear is included in most of the stamina/FR sets people have talked about in this thread. Amusingly enough, I actually have more frost resistance than fire resistance in my fire resist set. Edit: how is the polar gear "cheaper"? The enchants are quite cheap compared to epic craftables, and the flasks are made from cheap mats.

Last edited by foxglove : 03/31/09 at 1:50 PM.

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Old 03/31/09, 2:44 PM   #282
Daisil
Von Kaiser
 
Pandaren Monk
 
Illidan
Originally Posted by foxglove View Post
how is the polar gear "cheaper"? The enchants are quite cheap compared to epic craftables, and the flasks are made from cheap mats.
It's the fact that you have to either A) swap the enchants out for that one encounter or B) get the 2nd set of gear and spend the gold to enchant/gem it. It doesn't seem worth the effort to get the FR set if you can easily do without it.

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Old 03/31/09, 3:59 PM   #283
Mijae
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Daisil View Post
Another reset; so I guess I'll watch more closely this evening on what my stats sit about; and how hard I am hit for. We have good enough dps that we really only have to GS(or pain suppression, whichever we decide) the first one, and then I barkskin+Survival Instincts the second breath. At that point we don't have to worry about flame breaths.
This has always been the main point. With an FR set over 340 you really don't need any outside cooldowns in either 10 or 25 man versions.

For 25 man, I usually only take 1-3 fully buffed breaths and only one cooldown is needed to survive even a max damage breath. I'll use SI on the first breath and watch the timer on it, the buff is usually still up for the second. On the third breath I'll use Barkskin. Just to be safe I'll usually tell a priest to be ready with GS just in case a 4th is needed, but I very rarely end up calling for it.

In the 10 man, you really only need the cooldowns to survive a max breath. Most of the breaths won't put you in danger even fully buffed. I'll still use them exactly the same as 25 man just to be safe. However, as already mentioned, using Barkskin first will allow it to come back up again for another.

Removing reliance on external cooldowns is a huge gain in stability for the encounter. I'd much rather not have to rely on someone using their cooldowns too slow or hoping for RNG to be kind and not deliver max damage breaths.

Making the FR set really isn't hard. I still use the 70 epic gloves and have a green ring and bracer (with LW enchant). I put the FR enchant on an old tank cloak and the FR enchant on my [Hood of the Exodus]. This is the hardest fight in the game and nothing else needs the full tank enchant - it's only a few extra points anyway. Add on a resist flask and you're there.


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Old 03/31/09, 5:50 PM   #284
foxglove
Piston Honda
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Uldum
I confess that, lacking any other challenging encounter to tank, I simply put the FR enchants on my primary tank set. People looking at my armory probably think I'm a little nuts, but it's not like there's any tangible impact on my tanking of Kel'Thuzad... The helm enchant is actually a decent enchant by itself, and I'm okay with having a teensy bit less avoidance in all encounters to make my life easier in the one that is actually a challenge each reset.

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Old 04/01/09, 12:35 AM   #285
halmmar
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
<Zen>
Xavius (EU)
Originally Posted by Mijae View Post
In the 10 man, you really only need the cooldowns to survive a max breath. Most of the breaths won't put you in danger even fully buffed. I'll still use them exactly the same as 25 man just to be safe. However, as already mentioned, using Barkskin first will allow it to come back up again for another.
The danger in 10-man is not just a big breath. It's taking a big breath and having the healer be unable to heal you up before he does a few swings. If a shadow fissures spawns beneath him, he may have to move, etc.
So, in 25-man you use cooldowns in order to not get 1-shotted. In 10-man you use them so you don't dangerously low on health.

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