Its needed 335 resistance (4th step) to get 1% chance of getting full damage (down from 5th step or 415 resistance before WotLK) right now.
Math:
130 - aura/totem, 25 - head, 20 - back, 35 - flask(+18 stats as well), 125 remained - badge gloves, badge legs, epic fr ring.
So you need only 125 gear resistance to get "permanent" breath reduction. You loose 2-3k health on this, but imho 20% stable breath reduction worth it. The breath is one of the main problems of this event.
As a minor note here, Torment shucking is out the window, so you're going to need either fantastic DPS on Shadron or some cooldown help to survive the hard crossover. Whether it was a wise way to go is moot, as they've apparently changed it from dropping and reapplying to just having an ICD on the damage you take from it.
You can combine the two. Since the encounter has changed, we tried to burn Tenebron without bloodlust/heroism, aiming at having him down before he hatches for the 2nd time. Since this worked fine for us, we used bloodlust/heroism on Shadron ignoring his add. It looked quite promising, then the server started lagging. Once Shadron is dead dps immediately uses the portal to kill the add. Once that has happened the threat of being oneshot is eliminated.
You should only have a short time in which both adds are alive, which you can chain-cd through without any problems.
(Of course relying on external cd's like Paladin bubble or anti magic shell.)
I am not sure is it worth zoning to kill Acolytes before all adds are down.
Breath thread dissapear after Shadron death. After this his will provide only the immunity to Sartharion. Vesperon add will be respawned soon again. The only thing you gain by this zonning - you remove immunity from Sartharion.
I am not sure is it worth zoning to kill Acolytes before all adds are down.
Breath thread dissapear after Shadron death. After this his will provide only the immunity to Sartharion. Vesperon add will be respawned soon again. The only thing you gain by this zonning - you remove immunity from Sartharion.
You also cut his fire damage dealt.
Not been since patch but I believe last patch tooltip for it was bugged and was saying shadow.
I've analysed our after-patch log. Gift effect is still boosting boss fire damage.
To be honest, i was nether thinking about this buff, because after shadron death breath become not so hard - maximal hit i've seen - 25k, and this is survivable and healable.
Not been since patch but I believe last patch tooltip for it was bugged and was saying shadow.
This is true. It originally stated shadow on the tool tip but, it still increased the fire damage from the breath.
I can confirm that Guardian Spirit is working just fine for me. However, the interesting thing is I've never seen this bug occur. Personally I have been saved multiple times by GS pre-patch while learning Sarth-3D and Malygos. I'm wondering if it has to do with the time frame of the GS buff landing and the buff proc? My priests have always used it as a safety net and have it on me well in advance of an attack that will kill me, be it a 1-shot capable breath or straight damage.
Our cool down rotation is the following. We also always stress safety and keep 2 healers on me (the Sarth tank).
Breath 1: Barkskin/Survival Instincts
Breath 2: BoSac/Bubble
Breath 3: Guardian Spirit
Usually Shadron is down at this point but I do have 2 more GS to go through before we really start getting in trouble.
I tanked sarth3D and the changes make the fight slightly more challenging.
1. No Twilight Dance
2. Hunter pet survivability nurfed for sacrifice
3. Changed some resistance to stam and found the extra buffer was not equal to the reduction
On the histogram spread a 20+% spread in damage reduction occurs. NPC abilities and varying damage reduction occurs during a fight giving slight variance. Another interesting note is damage reducing abilities after resistance. I assume this means damage taken will be along the lines of..
I asked myself yesterday which flask, which gems, which enchants... avoidance vs mitigation vs stam vs resistance.
For this fight "enough" stamina is needed to survive a breath and that is a lot. Yesterday a full stam set - 52k on pull did not have enough HP to survive an empowered breath through bear last stand.
* Power of Tenebron: +100% shadow damage taken
* Power of Shadron: +100% fire damage taken
* Power of Vesperon: -25% [raid] health
[*Will of Sartharion: +25% mob health]...
* Disciple of Shadron: +50% fire damage
* Disciple of Vesperon: Twilight Torment: 2-3k damage taken when you deal damage; +75% damage from Sartharion's breath...
The pressure of the fight comes when Shadron and Vesperon are both alive due to how the abilities multiple Sartharion's Flame Breath on your tank, combined with the fact that your tank has 25% less health until Vesperon dies:
* Base damage: 11k-14k
* Power of Shadron: 22k-28k
* Acolyte of Shadron: 33k-42k
* Twilight Torment: 57k-74k
Surviving 74k damage is thus the magic number, something that gear will not do alone.
Reductions:
Protector of the Pact: 12%
Vigilance / Sanc blessing: 3%
Effulgent Skyflare Diamond: 2%
This is true. It originally stated shadow on the tool tip but, it still increased the fire damage from the breath.
I can confirm that Guardian Spirit is working just fine for me. However, the interesting thing is I've never seen this bug occur. Personally I have been saved multiple times by GS pre-patch while learning Sarth-3D and Malygos. I'm wondering if it has to do with the time frame of the GS buff landing and the buff proc? My priests have always used it as a safety net and have it on me well in advance of an attack that will kill me, be it a 1-shot capable breath or straight damage.
Our cool down rotation is the following. We also always stress safety and keep 2 healers on me (the Sarth tank).
Breath 1: Barkskin/Survival Instincts
Breath 2: BoSac/Bubble
Breath 3: Guardian Spirit
Usually Shadron is down at this point but I do have 2 more GS to go through before we really start getting in trouble.
I've tanked all of our 3 drake kills for the past 2 months, and basically what I've noticed is with 2 healers, I can basically keep myself alive without other players cooldowns.
We lust on the first drake, when drake 2 + 3 are active at the same time (1 shot range), I usually only take 2 or 3 breaths while both are active. If you ever notice 90% of the time, the first breath while both drakes are up isn't a 1 shot breath if it's right after Vesperon is active (5 seconds or so), I usually just let that one go, and eat it, if vesperon is up any longer it will be a 1 shot. With 2 healers I live through the first one easily, Breathe 2 I barkskin and again live relatively easily. Breath 3, I use survival insticts if drake 2 isn't dead by now.
Are you guys taking portals in after each drake? We only take a portal after drake 1 + 2 are dead, and clean everything up. Although this has become a little harder as of 3.0.8, it's still doable, your healers and DPS just need to pay attention and keep the raid up through twilight torment.
(25) Once the second drake is dead now the fight is truly over. Without the 100% fire buff you completely nullify the breaths, even with both Shadron and Vesperon's acolytes up. For people struggling with this I'd suggest dropping a healer or two and having as your aim to have Shadron dead within 1 breath of Vesperon summoning an acolyte. We tend to get him, waves permitting, down after only 1 breath with Shadron, Vesperon and both acolytes up. For the next breath Shadron is dead and that cuts the damage to a much more survivable figure. We then go down and trash the acolytes which removes Gift of Twilight making breath damage even more laughable. At that point we go down every portal whislt Vesperon is up just because we have many melee who won't stop attacking even if they're about to die from the triggered damage of Twilight Torment. But by that point its won, though I still advise calling waves when people are in the twilight as we've had more than a few times where the invulnerability effect hasn't triggered upon leaving the realm.
Originally Posted by Shadowed
The best part is, not only were you late in linking it, that's an April fools topic from 6 months ago.
I've tanked all of our 3 drake kills for the past 2 months, and basically what I've noticed is with 2 healers, I can basically keep myself alive without other players cooldowns.
We lust on the first drake, when drake 2 + 3 are active at the same time (1 shot range), I usually only take 2 or 3 breaths while both are active. If you ever notice 90% of the time, the first breath while both drakes are up isn't a 1 shot breath if it's right after Vesperon is active (5 seconds or so), I usually just let that one go, and eat it, if vesperon is up any longer it will be a 1 shot. With 2 healers I live through the first one easily, Breathe 2 I barkskin and again live relatively easily. Breath 3, I use survival insticts if drake 2 isn't dead by now.
Are you guys taking portals in after each drake? We only take a portal after drake 1 + 2 are dead, and clean everything up. Although this has become a little harder as of 3.0.8, it's still doable, your healers and DPS just need to pay attention and keep the raid up through twilight torment.
On ten man yes you're right I can hop the breaths with just my cool downs. However, if this is on 25 man, I don't believe you're telling the full story.
* Power of Tenebron: +100% shadow damage taken
* Power of Shadron: +100% fire damage taken
* Power of Vesperon: -25% [raid] health
[*Will of Sartharion: +25% mob health]...
* Disciple of Shadron: +50% fire damage
* Disciple of Vesperon: Twilight Torment: 2-3k damage taken when you deal damage; +75% damage from Sartharion's breath...
The pressure of the fight comes when Shadron and Vesperon are both alive due to how the abilities multiple Sartharion's Flame Breath on your tank, combined with the fact that your tank has 25% less health until Vesperon dies:
* Base damage: 11k-14k
* Power of Shadron: 22k-28k
* Acolyte of Shadron: 33k-42k
* Twilight Torment: 57k-74k
The maximum health I've been able to attain is 52k pre-pull. 52k translates to about 39k after the -25% health debuff is applied.
A max damage breath while twilight torment is active will land for 74k.
Assuming Protector of the Pack that turns into 65120.
Assuming Grace/Vigilence/Blessing of Sanctuary (3%) you have 63166.4.
Assuming Spell reduction meta the breath is 61,903.072.
Barkskin alone will not save you there as it will only reduce the breath to 41103. A last stand alone will not save you either as your HP total only jumps to 50700.
Again, I'd rather not wipe due to bad luck. Assuming that you're fully topped and you have a PW:S sure it is possible you could barely live through the breath with a single cool down. You'd also be so low on HP that a slight breeze would kill you. So the moral is, it can work with just you popping CDs however, as I stated before we stress safety regarding the breaths. If the CDs are available there is no reason to not use them to make the encounter easier.
You forget that you can receive a PW:S in about 80% of breaths. Given a disc priest that shield is worth 5-6k health. Alternatively you can also keep FR pots on you and pop one when you see weakened soul is still on you.
In terms of actual tanking roles, ive found (having MTd, Drake tanked and dpsed sar3d) that druids are the best drake tank, at least initially for learning. The main reason for this is that with a bloodlusted Tenebron and Beserk you can easily pull out about 3-4k dps. That is equivilent to 1 more DPS on Tenebron allowing you to bring a 7th healer or let your dps slack a bit while learning.(to focus on voids and firewalls).
DK's still make the best Sarth tank imo. Our DK is very geared and sits around 44k before the pull which drops him to 33k. Between his cds he can survive every breath with easy breathing room. Ive had wipes before where i survive a breath and instantly die to cleave in a matter of 0.4 seconds due to it being a top end breath with minimal resist.
You forget that you can receive a PW:S in about 80% of breaths. Given a disc priest that shield is worth 5-6k health. Alternatively you can also keep FR pots on you and pop one when you see weakened soul is still on you.
In terms of actual tanking roles, ive found (having MTd, Drake tanked and dpsed sar3d) that druids are the best drake tank, at least initially for learning. The main reason for this is that with a bloodlusted Tenebron and Beserk you can easily pull out about 3-4k dps. That is equivilent to 1 more DPS on Tenebron allowing you to bring a 7th healer or let your dps slack a bit while learning.(to focus on voids and firewalls).
DK's still make the best Sarth tank imo. Our DK is very geared and sits around 44k before the pull which drops him to 33k. Between his cds he can survive every breath with easy breathing room. Ive had wipes before where i survive a breath and instantly die to cleave in a matter of 0.4 seconds due to it being a top end breath with minimal resist.
That's probably because you're relying on just your one cool down per breath and a priest's PW:S. The whole PW:S theory hinges on nothing bad is going to happen to cause you to A) not be 100% topped and B) Your healers are not going to have to move at all. Read my whole post next time please. I did mention PW:S can let you live through a breath. However, the point that you're glossing over is what happens after a breath. Assuming that you raid with a disc priest (I do not) and that his PW:S will cover 6k hp. That puts you at a grand total of 45k HP. Wonderful, you now have a whole 4 to 5k HP for the period directly following a breath. The random cyclones hit for more than that not to mention the cleave or white hits that can happen.
I'm not certain why people are getting so hung up on "using only my cool downs". It's all well and good and you can do it. However, I can also choose to play with my mouse in my left hand instead of my right. I don't because it is more comfortable and safer from a raiding stand point to use my mouse with my right hand.
On ten man yes you're right I can hop the breaths with just my cool downs. However, if this is on 25 man, I don't believe you're telling the full story.
The maximum health I've been able to attain is 52k pre-pull. 52k translates to about 39k after the -25% health debuff is applied.
A max damage breath while twilight torment is active will land for 74k.
Assuming Protector of the Pack that turns into 65120.
Assuming Grace/Vigilence/Blessing of Sanctuary (3%) you have 63166.4.
Assuming Spell reduction meta the breath is 61,903.072.
Assuming sal's resistance #s are correct
The breath hits for ~51379.
Barkskin alone will not save you there as it will only reduce the breath to 41103. A last stand alone will not save you either as your HP total only jumps to 50700.
Again, I'd rather not wipe due to bad luck. Assuming that you're fully topped and you have a PW:S sure it is possible you could barely live through the breath with a single cool down. You'd also be so low on HP that a slight breeze would kill you. So the moral is, it can work with just you popping CDs however, as I stated before we stress safety regarding the breaths. If the CDs are available there is no reason to not use them to make the encounter easier.
This is 25 man - maybe you don't have enough dps, but the dragon will literally only breath 2 or 3 times, while drake 2 is alive. We run 3 tanks, 6 healers. We did it patch day - without a problem.
I successfully tanked Sarth3d on both 10 and 25 man before the last patch, and could usually survive on my own through a combination of trinket and ability cooldowns while torment dancing. With the removal of dancing in the last patch, our raid had to learn how to keep me alive. It took several try's to get it down right (meanwhile our dps had apparently forgotten what a void zone is). Worked very smoothly once everything fell in line. Here's my setup and what we did.
~52k HP raid buffed, pre hp-debuff
FR enchant on helm and cloak + FR totem/aura
All stamina otherwise... gems, enchants, armor kits, the works.
Once Vesperon lands, you can wait until he summons a disciple inside the portal. You'll often get a free breath right before this happens, but be careful if it's cutting close. I usually use my Barkskin+Offering of Sacrifice for the first breath, so that I can be the one making the judgement call on the first breath. I then call for a guardian spirit to be ready, and sit ready on healthstone/healthpot. Our priests have Sarth focused, so as soon as he starts casting his breath, I get a GS. If by chance, the breath doesn't eat the GS, I pop a HS/HP to make sure his next melee doesn't kill me. Rinse and repeat for as many GS's as you have in raid (I got lucky and had 3 one raid). Next on the list would be BoS rotations. I always try to supplement a BoS with a health boost (bear stand or nightmare seed), or a fire resist pot. Never use a health boost or FR pot with GS though, as it just increases the chance that you WON'T take deadly damage from the breath. My barkskin is usually up to catch one of the later breaths, if still necessary as well.
Using these cooldowns, I would have been able to go up to 7 breaths, possibly more. This should never be necessary, but having everyone ready to go and know what they need to do can save a situation where one of your cooldown providers eats a void zone or gets knocked out by a blaze. >.<
Good communication is key. Make sure your players know what to expect from your movements and what cooldowns are used and/or no longer available. If you might be moving out of range, let them know... if one of your cooldowns dies, make sure they say something and that you quickly work out a replacement. The dual nature of being a gear check on your tank and a team check with the cooldowns makes this one of the most exciting (and frustrating) fights I've yet to do. I must say I felt a lot more comfortable when I could manage all the breaths myself, but eliminating the dance was a great way to add a lot more depth to the fight.
There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding re: the big breaths
1: Torment is applied by Vesperon's add, NOT Vesperon. The one-shots do not begin as soon as he lands, but when the add spawns in the portal.
2: with 36K HP (around 50-51K buffed before aura) you can survive anything but the Torment breaths. Anymore stam than this is kind of pointless since you cannot survive a torment breath without a heap more. Has anyone actually been able to produce a gear set which can eat a full torment buffed breath? I haven't seen anyone claim this yet, which leads me to conclude that all that is needed is a set that can eat the Shadron (100% Fire dmg) buffed breaths: 36K or so.
3: If you want to avoid uber-dmg breaths, take the portals and only kill Vesperon's add. Shadron's add is almost completely irrelevant to the fight until you are ready to dps Sartharion himself.
The 3.08 changes were designed - in my opinion - to eliminate the strategy where a bear tank in high stam and the skill to "torment dance" could effectively remove the need for any clickies at all. Now, you actually have to trust your pallies and priests . I personally have found this slightly more stressfull - cause i like to control my own fate - but it actually makes MTing Sarth easier cause there is one less thing to tunnel vision.
It would still be worth it to kill Shadron's acolyte (after Shadron dies), just to make it slightly easier (you can also take down Vesperon's add at the same time to give you a good 20-30 sec of minimal raid healing).
Hey guys just want to say first post so don't blame me if I suck but I see many people saying you can't survive Tormented breaths. I'm not sure but I guess your meaning a "full debuffed breath" by meaning you can't survive those breaths. But once Shadron is dead and his acolite is to ain't Tormented breaths kinda dedundant? Or did I miss something? :o
P.S Sorry for the bad grammar
Last edited by Murck : 01/27/09 at 6:20 AM.
Reason: P.S
Actually only Shadron has to die to remove the danger of being oneshot. After that the fight is actually won.
I find it quite amusing how people here chose to let the acolyte of shadron live, not that it really matters either way.
Killing the Shadrons acolyte after his death will give the Sartharion-tank healers some R&R for the rest of the fight.
It's often a control issue Yaelle, killing Shadron's acolyte means someone has to tank him, and you need to send Raid Healers down as well. If you send the Whelp/Blaze tank, this means any blazes that spawn are uncontrolled for a while, Next best is clearly a cat druid followed by a fury warrior.
I suspect I caused some of the confusion by misreading a port above, I appologise.
In my earlier posts I just wanted to clear up some misconceptions about when the really big breaths start. I wasnt trying to suggest there is an ideal strat for dealing with Sadron and his add, merely to point out that his add contributes nothing to raid damage, only a tolerable amount to tank damage and is not likely to be the cause of a wipe at any stage of the encounter.
You obviously need to kill his add before you can kill Sartharion - 100% dmg reduction is hard to dps through :P - but i dont think the extra damage, to a druid tank in particular, is much of a hassle for the healers. Once Shadron is down the healing of a druid MT becomes very straightforward.
Okay, maybe I'm getting 10/25 man confused a little here. In the 25 man version you'll definitely have the means to deal with the adds (and I think there's no reason one shouldn't), since at least one tank doesn't know what to do with his time after Shadron died.
01/22/09, 6:45 AM
. I personally have found this slightly more stressfull - cause i like to control my own fate - but it actually makes MTing Sarth easier cause there is one less thing to tunnel vision.
but I see many people saying you can't survive Tormented breaths. I'm not sure but I guess your meaning a "full debuffed breath" by meaning you can't survive those breaths. But once Shadron is dead and his acolite is to ain't Tormented breaths kinda dedundant? Or did I miss something? :o
Similar Threads
