Murck

So with a Shadron acolyte and a torment debuff the breath hits for like 30ish k or am I misscalculating anything?'
Assuming Shadron is dead ofc

 

Vaccine

People need to post which mode they are talking about, otherwise its impossible to decipher.

 

Murck

Oh so sorry getting late here at work Mean the 10 version

 

Blazefire

So I've been working on the OS10 version of 3 drakes for a few weeks and we've been so close to home stretch (2 drakes dead) on several occasions, only to have what should be a kill shot negated by a healer taking a flame wall or me getting 1 shot as the Druid Sarth MT.

Our raid composition pre-3.0.8 had been 3 tanks and 3 healers and with enough cooldowns and twilight dancing, it seemed fine. However yesterday we changed things to a 3 tank and 2 healers setup since you can no longer twilight dance and we wanted to get out of the 1 shot phase quicker, since we had less cooldowns available. After spending several hours with it last night, I like having the extra DPS, and we don't seem to be shorthanded by 1 less healer. However, on several really good attempts, were Tenebron was dead and Vesperon was within 10% of dying I get one shot by his breaths despite popping my cooldowns. I have 38.9k HP once the fight starts, and with SI popped I was still getting crushed by ~50k breaths. Have I just been unlucky with getting the high end of the damage range or is there more I can do to live through this? Mind you, since it is a 10 man, we will be in the 1 shot range or a couple breaths, and we have less cool downs available to live through them. Obviously GS will prevent a death, but thats only good once and when its time to rely on my own cooldowns, it just feels like surviving is a matter of RNG.

Whats the typical setup people have been using since 3.0.8 with regards to tanks and healers?

 

Wackedupwacko

Top end breaths in 10man are i believe 57200 before reductions. For a druid tank this means that at any point the maximum breath are just over 50k so you pretty much took the absolute top end without resisting any damage. In terms of surviving it other than using a major CD (PS, GS, BoSanc, Roar of Sac, AMZ etc) is SI + Barkskin or SI + fr pot or Barkskin + fr pot. There really isnt much more a druid can do other than pop 2 things for absolute top end. Whether you are willing to pop 2cds for the small chance or not is up to you.


yeh sorry about not reading that part. There is one thing to note, you should not be attempting this if your mt healers cannot heal the breath INSTANTLY. Breaths are a 2s cast. Your healers should be alert for breaths and have their casts land right after the breath. Bigger casts if you have anticipated it and precasted (GH, HL) even a Flash + shock is about 8-12k. You should not be on 4-5k hp for longer than 0.5 seconds.

The only freakish death we've ever had was with our dk tank (32k hp after vesp debuff) where flamebreath top ended him for 36k leaving him on 1k and then taking a cleave 0.1 seconds after for 1.2k damage. Needless to say there isnt much we couldve done for that. There was even a heal registered on recount at 0.12seconds before death for 14k crit.

 

kalbear

While we've not been able to get him down, I was able to test out my basically max FR gear set with the breaths. With it, I was able to survive 80% of breaths without cooldowns. I would get very, very low on occasion (2k ish) but would otherwise survive it. It did mean that I needed to be topped off at all times.

With this set the max breath I took was 35k. I had just above 36k health with the debuff. I did take one 40k breath, but this was after my FR aura was removed.

I don't know whether this would be possible without the leatherworking bracer patch. With buffs, I had a total of 380 FR and 48k health.

 

NinJOu

You mean you were able to survive breath WITH Vesperon & Shadron acolytes up ? 10 or 25 men ?

If so, can you post your set up please ?

Thx =)

 

kalbear

Yes, I was able to survive breaths with vesp/shad and acolytes up. Using no cooldowns. In 25man. In practice I used some cooldowns because I was worried about taking that much damage and then getting meleed down. I did have a disc priest, but PW:S wasn't up all the time and I did survive a breath, taking 35k, without shield.

I'll log out in my gear and post it later. The quick answer is:
FR to bracers
FR to helm + Effulgent Skyflare diamond
Wyrmcultist cloak + FR to cloak
FR neck (+30)
One FR ring
Flask of Chromatic Wonder
FR pally aura

Everywhere else was basically stam. At the time, it was 48k health buffed, 380 FR.

 

halmmar

I've also taken quite a few breaths in 25-man with both acolytes and drakes still up. I use less FR and more stamina though.
42k health after aura and
60 FR on wrist
25 FR on helm
20 FR on cloak (Shadowed Sun)
130 FR Aura
50 Lesser Flask of Resistance
285 FR (~25% damage reduced, Barkskin is easily enough to live a breath, as is Nightmare Seed+Fire Pot or Survival Instincts)
To be honest this fight isn't that hard to tank once your dps know what to do (nuke hard and fast).

 

• Diameter

Do you have a WWS you could provide us with to back up this claim? It seems to be that a 35k breath with no PW:S is still quite close to 1 shotting you. I built a specific set of gear to main tank Sartharion, which maximizes my stamina (no surprise there). However, if I can get enough data on resistances, I may be able to build a new table showing the resistance against level 83 direct-damage spells much like WoW -> Info -> Basics -> Resistances, but adapted for the new 0%,10%,20%...100% resist percentages which were changed as Wrath went live. I don't believe the new resist %'s based on your magical resistance has been analyzed to this extent. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Also, from what you've listed, I'm only counting 354 Fire Resist. Were you missing something?

 

kalbear

Probably. This was from memory. Maybe a second ring?

Here's the WWS report for the night. I did take a 40k hit, but that was after losing my FR aura from a pally.

 

Polyphaser

my 2 cents
25 man and 10 man

#1 Tank Postion

Watch this video for a good Tank Position I don't care what else they do in this video and anything else you see isn't relevant just the Tank position is all I am using this video for as a reference. The Tank position is pretty critical no matter where you put him!
Bosskillers World of Warcraft Bosses, Guides, Movie Reviews and Guild Kills

#2 I wear Fire Resist , This works FYI and works well!

Gear
[Valorous Dreamwalker Headguard] With [Arcanum of the Flame's Soul] ,[Effulgent Skyflare Diamond] and [Regal Twilight Opal]
[Cloak of the Shadowed Sun] With [Formula: Enchant Cloak - Superior Fire Resistance]
[Hateful Gladiator's Armwraps of Triumph] With [Pattern: Fur Lining - Fire Resist]
Consumables are as follows:
[Flask of Chromatic Wonder]
[Blackened Dragonfin]

#3 Two mods will help you out here:
a) Quartz - provides a nice enemy cast bar you can use to look for the Flame Breaths
Make sure to use one of the following every Flame Breath while Vesp's add is up
Barkskin,Survival Instincts,Frenzy Rengeneration
b) Tank Warning - Anounces when you use Barkskin/Survival Instincts
- This is good because you will be using your Priest shields and pally Divine Gaurdian ; lets them know when you are all out of cooldowns.

#4 Avoid the Flame walls and don't let him breath on your raid simple stuff that's about all you can do as the Sarth tank.

 

dmacika

Has anyone built a realistic Fire Resist set that doesn't include the Bracer enchant for non-LW?

 

killets

No, I can only get around 280 without going to any extremes (like using Void Spheres). I do use a green level 78 cloak of fire protection though.

In the end, it's just luck whether or not I get gibbed or not at that resist level, as in 10 man, I don't have nearly enough resistance or cooldowns to survive every breath.

Just hope I survive enough of them until they can get Shadron down.

 

Mijae

I've seen a few studies on resistance, but nothing really conclusive imo. It may be that resists are on a 10% scale now, but if you just stand in the lava by Sarth you'll see different resist amounts on constant damage. It's clearly not a constant percent reduction. For fights like tanking the adds on Illidan an average resist might be useful. However, for Sarth we need to deal with worst case scenarios. What would be great is a formula to figure out both minimum resist and average resist.

Just how much stamina is FR worth? Are you willing to use best in slot stamina items?

Here is a list of FR I can find. The ratings are given in terms of ( FR gain / Sta loss ). Of course, some of these items also reduce other stats. It will be very hard to calculate this value though.

[Formula: Enchant Cloak - Superior Fire Resistance]
[Arcanum of the Stalwart Protector] vs [Arcanum of the Flame's Soul] (3.571)
[Deadly Gladiator's Dragonhide Gloves] vs [Inferno Hardened Gloves] (0.702)
[Fur Lining - Stamina] vs [Fur Lining - Fire Resist] (0.667)
[Deadly Gladiator's Dragonhide Legguards] vs [Blastguard Pants] (0.656) [Inferno Hardened Leggings] (0.585)
[Gatekeeper] vs [Phoenix-fire Band] (0.600)
[Heavy Borean Armor Kit] vs [Flame Armor Kit] (0.444)
[Boundless Ambition] vs [Pendant of Frozen Flame] (0.395) [Amulet of the Torn-heart] (0.375)
[Frosthide Leg Armor] vs [Lesser Arcanum of Resilience] (0.364)
[Cloak of the Shadowed Sun] vs [Wyrmcultist's Cloak] (0.343) [Fiery Cloak] (0.316)
[Polar Boots] vs [Inferno Hardened Boots] (0.319) [Blastguard Boots] (0.294)
[Polar Cord] vs [Blastguard Belt] (0.294)
[Greater Inscription of the Gladiator] vs [Inscription of Endurance] (0.233)
[Solid Sky Sapphire] vs [Void Sphere] (0.167) (0.222 in Polar Vest) (0.333 in T7 helm)

The helm enchant is a no-brainer. I put it on a secondary helm with an [Effulgent Skyflare Diamond] and a stam socket. I also put the cloak resist enchant on a secondary tanking cloak. Beyond that it's interesting to note how close in value (or better) the level 70 resist gear is to the bracer enchant. However, they are lower in armor, avoidance, and threat.

Edit: Fixed math on a few FR ratings.

Feral DruidStats spreadsheet
v3.2.0.0.xls - updated 8/4/2009

 

halmmar

@Mijae: You forgot the flasks.

(Using 1 STA = 17.49 health)

[Flask of Stoneblood] = 37 STA
[Flask of Chromatic Wonder] = 18 STA 35 FR -> 1.84
[Lesser Flask of Resistance] = 50 FR -> 1.35

So the lesser flask is still better than using any of the TBC Fire Resist gear if you want more of it.

--

Also, from my logs I read that I resist >99% of sarths breaths and I think the others are just the paladin dying before me because it was a wipe, and then I'm unlucky and take a full breath because my FR is lower.

I'd argue that resist gear is better for tanks now than it was in TBC. On Illidan you could get very unlucky and take 3-4 full hits in a row (since it was only 0/25/50/100% on the table?). It now seems to be more of a distribution around an expected value, with extremes being more uncommon. This means we can rely more on it, even though it seems less effective per point than before.

 

Mijae

Yes, it appears that some amount of damage is resisted every hit. However, it is still a range and only the lowest end of the range can be considered reliable. If you cannot survive a max damage breath with a min resistance, then you still need to use cooldowns.

Feral DruidStats spreadsheet
v3.2.0.0.xls - updated 8/4/2009

 

Shamgarr

I'm curious what the source is on this. I still haven't found any rigorous math on the new resistances. The "average" reduction of 440/(440+resistance) seems to fit, but is most likely slightly different for an 83 boss. However as Mijae mentions the most important thing here is the minimum possible resist and the chance of it.

Tbh 335 resistance for a 1% chance of full damage seems high. The possible resist percentages at each level of resistance seem fairly tight about the average.

So far I've only done one test that I'm somewhat confident in, and that was 481 samples of Magma at 350 FR. One caveat is that this would use the resistance checks for an 80 mob, so the effect of the level difference is unknown.

The breakdown was as follows:

30% Resisted: 47 (9.8%)
40% Resisted: 145 (30.1%)
50% Resisted: 214 (44.5%)
60% Resisted: 75 (15.6%)

To me, it seems highly unlikely that under the new resist system, a full damage hit is even possible with this level of FR. Based on even this moderate number of samples, there is a 99% confidence that if it is even possible to have a 20%, 10%, or 0% resist with 350 FR, the combined chance is below 1%.

In other words, I could accept that a 20% resist is possible with 350 FR, though highly unlikely - but this makes me near certain that 10% and 0% resists have been pushed completely off the table, and fairly confident that 20% has as well.

If this is the case, I'd be interested to find a rough minimum amount of resistance needed to eliminate resists of 20%, and 30%. Hitting such goals, then maxing stam, could basically allow us to be self-sufficient in OS10, and remove a lot of risks in OS25.

I'm not sure if anyone out there has or is running tests like this, but I'd certainly be interested. Though it's rather time consuming to get statistically meaningful data at many different values of FR, and again, the current effect of the level difference is not known precisely either, though to be safe I imagine adding 15-20 to w/e thresholds are found would be sufficiently accurate.

Edit: Ok got curious ab how reliable even higher resist might be and did one more -

429 FR - 538 Samples

40% Resist: 23.8%
50% Resist: 43.7%
60% Resist: 28.6%
70% Resist: 3.9%

99.5% confidence that the chance of a lower resist is under 1%, if possible at all.

For the record, average damage taken at 350 FR was 53.4%, and at 429 FR, 48.7%.

The predicted averages from [440/(440+FR)] are 55.7% and 50.6%. While the sample size is moderate, it does seem a bit larger than the Greedy Goblin link's sample size per point, and the numbers actually seem to better correspond to a 400/(400+FR) fit: 53.3% and 48.3%. This would make some sense as well, as 400 is simply Level x 5.

If this is indeed the correct relationship between FR and "average" damage, then it's quite plausible that the minimum FR required to knock a certain resist chance for an 83 mob off the table is simply the FR which provides the same "average" resistance as a level 80 minimum. This would be 415/400 times the 80 value. Of course as seen with things like +hit, level differences don't always have such straightforward effects.

 

Allev

So... Is (getting to and fighting for an hour) Baron Geddon soloable at this point? I bet a dragon aura in BWL would be faster to test, but requires a partial clear with a good number of people.

If not... Drakkisath in UBRS?

 

Shamgarr

Alright so it turned out I was curious/bored enough today after all...



Just 4 different FR values so far. I'm pretty much certain at this point that sufficient resistance pushes certain possibilities completely off the table, just like if you have insufficient resistance you'll never randomly see a 90% resist. The sample size is large enough now for a 90% confidence that if outliers do exist, their combined probability is less than 1/1000. It appears more likely that Blizzard is using discrete cutoffs of a probability distribution (sadly, not a Gaussian one, so that part I still haven't been able to nail down).

Also, an average damage taken of 400/(400+Resistance) seems to hold.



Things to note - a resist value of 100 should give an average resistance of 20%, the data agreed well at 19.4%. Only three resist values seem possible at this FR: 10%, 20%, and 30%. Interestingly, however, the probability is not symmetric, and 10% resists are more likely than 30%.

At other resistance values, it's even harder to nail down the formula used to determine the probability of each resist, because the average resist does not fall on a 10% mark. I've been assuming it's some type of common probability distribution about the sustained average, which is subsequently chopped up into these 10% bins, but so far haven't found anything that fits.

If anyone else out there is statistically inclined I'd be happy to share more raw data to help determine a fit - just didn't want to clutter this thread too excessively...

As far as testing methods, since old world bosses are still "boss" level do they obey exactly the same hit/resist mechanics? I guess I thought so as well, but in my head it just "feels" like they barely land hits sometimes so I wasn't sure. If that's the case I could probably figure out something in Azeroth to mess with. The nice thing about Magma is I get 600 samples in 20 minutes, going to be tough to get that kind of data from any boss.

 

Mijae

I guess the 10% brackets make sense now. Based on these numbers it seems pretty clear to be a weighted distribution around your average resistance +/- 10% (rounded up and down). So, to push 30% resists off the table you just need to be over 40% resist.

We would really need to finalize the formula though. I would say your numbers are more reliable since he said his averages were based on just 100+ hits. It's hard to say what affects level had on his other tests. Assuming it is actually is level * 5, the averages are:

Avg = 1 - 415/(415+FR)
FR = 415 * Avg / (1 - Avg)

47 FR : 10% Resist
104 FR : 20% Resist
178 FR : 30% Resist
277 FR : 40% Resist
415 FR : 50% Resist
623 FR : 60% Resist

To get 285 resist would take just: FR Aura (130), Resist Flask (50), Helm enchant (25), Bracer enchant (60), Cloak enchant (20). This would come at a total cost of 134 Stamina (about 2.3k pre-debuff health). Non-LW would lose an additional 17 stam (gloves & ring instead).

To get 415 resist would take: FR Aura (130), Chromatic Flask (35), Helm enchant (25), Bracer enchant (60), Cloak enchant (20), FR Gloves (40), FR Pants (40), FR Ring (30), FR Neck (30), Armor Kit (8). This would come at a total cost of 378 Stamina (over 6.6k pre-debuff health).

14062 * 0.88 * 0.97 * 0.98 * 1.5 * 2 * 1.75 * 0.1 = 6176

So, the difference in 10% resist for a max damage breath is 6176 at a cost of around 3.2K post-debuff health. So, it appears 415 resist really is worth getting in terms of breath survival. The hard part is determining if it's worth the loss of avoidance/threat.

Feral DruidStats spreadsheet
v3.2.0.0.xls - updated 8/4/2009

 

kalbear

Really nice work, shamgarr.

I think that's an incorrect way of determining the damage mitigated, mijae. It certainly does not jive with what has been actually observed being resisted and the damage coming in. I suspect the formula is going to be something like:
(14062* (1-FR)) *(1.5*2*1.75) * (.88*.97*.98)

Which at 40% FR gives 37054 damage. That's more in line with my anecdotal evidence as well; the max damage I received appeared to be much closer to this than to what your number showed.

 

hypetech

42k after the debuff is 56k before the debuff. What gear set are you using where you manage to have 56k hp using FR enchants and flask?

 

kalbear

It's not that hard if you're a JC. If you're not a JC, I believe the absolute max stam you can have is around 54.5k.

 

Mijae

The difference is if resist is calculated before or after damage multipliers are applied. Perhaps the combat log is just showing the results in an odd way. Would it actually show "37054 Fire (5625 Resisted)" in this case, where it only shows the pre-modified resist? Looking back in the thread, it appears that the person who claimed the other resist mechanic edited his post to retract it. I've edited my post above.

Damage = 14062 * (0.88 * 0.97 * 0.98 * 1.5 * 2 * 1.75 * (1-0.4)) = 37054 / 0.75 = 49405
Damage = 14062 * (0.88 * 0.97 * 0.98 * 1.5 * 2 * 1.75 * (1-0.3)) = 43230 / 0.75 = 57640

So if it is possible to get 50K health and 415 resist, you could just barely survive a worst-case breath with no cooldowns at all. With 280 resist you would need almost 58K. This makes stacking FR very attractive.

Damage = 11250 * (0.88 * 0.97 * 0.98 * 1.5 * 2 * 1.75 * (1-0.4)) = 29645 / 0.75 = 39527
Damage = 11250 * (0.88 * 0.97 * 0.98 * 1.5 * 2 * 1.75 * (1-0.3)) = 34585 / 0.75 = 46113

It then seems that 415 resist would make the 10 man version fairly trivial.

Feral DruidStats spreadsheet
v3.2.0.0.xls - updated 8/4/2009