Here's an example of one of the parses from my log:
22:10'56.375 Sartharion #14 Flame Breath hits Felhoof for 32978 Fire. (7669 Resisted) (1388 Absorbed). From that, it seems clear that the resist is pre-modified; the breath should have been far higher at that point in the fight.

Similarly, on one that killed me:
22:05'12.688 Sartharion #13 Flame Breath hits Felhoof for 40005 Fire. (5916 Resisted)
(that was after I had lost my FR aura from my paladin, hence the higher number and lower resisted damage).

Another one that killed me, barely:
20:48'02.453 Sartharion #3 Flame Breath hits Felhoof for 39031 Fire. (5793 Resisted) (140 Absorbed)

If I had had a shield on that one I would've made it; I don't have 415 FR, so some times I will take an unlucky hit.

Full results of my resists can be found here.

Here's an example of taking Vesp+Shad breaths, then shadron dying:
21:57'09.703 Sartharion #12 Flame Breath hits Felhoof for 23523 Fire. (6088 Resisted)
21:57'32.141 Sartharion #12 Flame Breath hits Felhoof for 18783 Fire. (9110 Resisted) (2336 Absorbed)
21:57'44.188 Sartharion #12 Flame Breath hits Felhoof for 31210 Fire. (6175 Resisted) (2196 Absorbed)
21:57'56.281 Sartharion #12 Flame Breath hits Felhoof for 12804 Fire. (8572 Resisted)

The last one is clearly the Shadron death.

I think it's pretty clear to me that the way I posted is basically how breaths work. And it also does mean that with minimal cooldowns or consumables a tank should be able to survive the breaths assuming they have at least 280 FR. Barkskin will deal with one, SI will deal with another, nightmare seed/FR prot pot should deal with a third, and by then barkskin will be up. A shield should even be enough to deal with this damage too.

This seems like only an option for LW druids, but it could help some.

This is correct, everything is simply multiplicative, in effect.

For example, with a 50% resist of a 10k base damage spell, with no other modifiers, you will see 5k damage, 5k resisted.

All "damage taken" buffs/debuffs, like Protector of the Pack, or Twilight Torment, apply to the actual damage taken, 5k. All this means is that with barkskin up, for example, you would see 4k damage, 5k resisted. The resisted damage is not modified by any "damage taken" modifiers, but in practice this makes no difference (you would instead see "4k resisted" if it were, but your damage taken is the same either way).

Gift of Twilight on the other hand, increases Sarth's damage dealt by 50%, so it would increase both the amount taken and the amount resisted. Again, the effect is exactly the same, multiplicative. I only point it out because it will increase the "resist" number in your combat log by 50%, so needs to be taken into account if you're trying to determine what the base damage of a breath was.

I don't think this is true. If it were true, I would expect to see far higher resisted numbers in my combat log than I am seeing. The resisted amount in the log stays reasonably close to the same regardless of overall breath damage.

Well if you take that kill breath for example: 40005 (5916 Resisted)

For the 5916 resist, if this were not affected by Gift of Twilight, the possible base damages are (for a few possible resist %)

20%: 29580
30%: 19720
40%: 14790

These are all a bit high. If it is increased by 50% however, the possibilities become

20%: 19720
30%: 13147
40%: 9860

Working from the damage taken:

40005 / (.88*.97*.98*2*1.5*1.75) = 9109 damage. The possible base damages are:

20%: 11386
30%: 13013
40%: 15182

So 30% numbers are fairly close, and seems to confirm that when the caster's damage is increased (Sarth's), both the damage taken and resisted increase, which makes sense. It's no different than partially resisting a mage's pyro when he has AP up - the damage of the spell is simply bigger, and if you resist half of it, that resisted amount will be bigger.

What's interesting beyond this, though, is that the only way to get these numbers to work exactly is to assume your disc priest's grace does in fact stack with Sanctuary, and that the meta gem reduction is actually applied before the resist check, unlike barkskin/PoP/etc.

This yields a base damage of 13415. Applying all appropriate modifiers to both taken and resisted amounts yields the numbers you gave. This works for several of the other entries in your WWS log where it's clear all modifiers are active.
(Edit: Just to clarify I didn't mean all results have a base damage of 13415, just that working from both damage taken and damage resisted yield exactly matching results if the above assumptions are made.)

I never really did have a conclusive answer on the stacking of Grace and BoS - Rawr and several sources say they do not, whereas others say they do. These numbers indicate they do after all. As far as the meta gem, it's the same net result either way, but it's odd behavior compared to similar mechanics, and simply needs to be accounted for as such in any resistance math.

Here is a simple probability distribution that seems to be reasonably close to this chart.

Compute the expected damage taken, DT = (400/(400+FR))

25% of the time blizz will "aim" at DT-10%.
50% of the time blizz will "aim" at DT.
25% of the time blizz will "aim" at DT+10%.

If the "aim point" is a multiple of 10%, that will be the actual damage taken. Otherwise it will move up or down to one of the bounding multiples of 10%. The probability that it will move up is exactly how far "up" the aim point was between the two boundaries.

Example, for 429 FR:

Expected DT is 400/(400+429) = 48.2509%

48.2509 is 82.509% of the distance between 40 and 50.

"Aim points" can be 38.2509 (25%), 48.2509 (50%), or 58.2509% (25%)

Probability that final damage taken is

DT 30% = 70% resisted = 25% * (100%-82.509%) = 4.4%
40% = 60% resisted = 25% * 82.509% + 50% * (100%-82.509%) = 29.4%
50% = 50% resisted = 50% * 82.509% + 25% * (100%-82.509%) = 45.6%
60% = 40% resisted = 25% * 82.509% = 20.6%

This distribution preserves the 48.2509% average DT, and looks like a pretty good fit for the graph.

My formula breaks down if DT > 90%. More testing would be needed to see how they handle that situation.

Those numbers seem to be within confidence intervals for the case you listed, though the probability of each aim point might be a little different than 25/50/25. Certainly at the lowest FR, 100, the distribution is not symmetrical. I'm not sure yet if that's a difference in the overall formula, or some kind of modifying factor as resistance nears 0.

Here's a case that just about confirms what Mijae described:

I put on exactly 399 FR, and took 633 samples, with these results:

60% Resist: 144 (22.8%)
50% Resist: 337 (53.2%)
40% Resist: 148 (23.4%)
30% Resist: 4 (0.6%)

I don't have an exactly 400 FR combo to test, but I think it's a pretty safe bet that it would eliminate this small chance of a 30% resist, as expected. This is again for 80 mobs, with the expectation of 415 for boss level.

The 429 test was just me throwing all the FR I had on, without bugging anyone for a totem/aura. There's no other significance to the number.

The theory is that for a boss level mob, the probabilities at 415 FR will be the same as the results at 400 FR vs an 80 "mob". The last data set I posted at 399 FR should be pretty much your odds with that set on, minus that small chance of a 30% resist due to being 1 point under the threshold.

Without rigorous testing vs. boss-level mobs, it's still just a plausible guess at this point - there could in fact be some harsher level penalty than just changing the constant from 400 to 415.

Either way I think you'll be in pretty good shape, and am interested to hear how it goes. Just don't let that FR totem run out or aura get out of range ^^

And I don't believe you missed anything in the damage reduction math, other than Grace which does seem to stack, but disc priests aren't terribly common.

First of all, I'd like to thank you for the valuable insight of the resistance mechanic and any other further information.

Given my little math understanding I'd like to ensure that having a total fire resistance of >415 eliminates the possibility of an one-shot by 100% - assuming the feral tank is at around 37k HP topped. Feel free to correct me on that one, since I'm not quite sure I can follow the reasoning behind the formulas and theorycrafting.

The reason why I ask is because I'm of one our two ferals which should serve as a Sartharion-sponge. I've followed some of the rather old discussions about stacking stamina and so I'm not quite sure anymore what's the best way of dealing with the breath. From what I gathered max-stamina gear requires at least some cooldowns like Hand of Sacrifice and such.
With the use of resistance is it safe to say you don't have to rely on any outside-cooldowns?
I should add that I'm talking about the 25-man version, so its safe to assume we have at least one priest for an PW:S. Also our priests are quite protective of their CoH-specs so I'm not quite we'd have something like Guardian Spirit oder Pain Suppression - although that's just a minor problem with handling talent respecs.


So, in short: If I were to tank Sartharion - what would be the keyfigures?
Like: max HP before Vesperons Aura: ~4xk? (Calculating with some of the provided data in here, I'd estimate about 46k?)
Fire Resistance: 415?

My colleague argued that gimping his gear to about 330FR with imp. MotW would leave him around ~30k HP after the 25%debuff. Still, it was just an spontaneous gathering of old 70 FR-gear. He also mentionend the increase of physical damage resulting from the death of the drakes would leave him in a bad situation. Is transitioning after the three drakes are dead an viable option?

Maximum breath is 74k in 25 men.

To ensure surviving it with 415 resist (40% resist is the worst case scenario) you need:

74*(1-0.4)*(1-0.12)*0.98*0.97/0.75 = 49.522k HP before the -25% debuff.

74 is for breath, 0.6 for fire res, 0.88 fur PoP, 0.98 for metagem, 0.97 for BoSanc or Vigilance, I've not taken into account grace because you can't be sure it's 100% uptime (but I know it's near there).

I don't know if it's possible to manage a 49.5k hp - 415 resist set.

I'll see it soon with rawr.



EDIT:



I don't think I'll be able to use old level 70 FR gear (I don't have them in bank and I should redo old istances for badge.. I don't like the idea).
So my question was: How much fire resistance I need to let barkskin alone and Survival Instinct alone be 2 viable cooldown to use, here is the answer.

The Resistance formula is:

415/(415+Resistance) = Average damage taken = ADT

So, suppose I want to be sure to resist at least 20% of the damage, using the ADT +/- 10% rule, I need ADT =70% = 0.7

Resistance = 415(1-ADT)/ADT = 178

with 178 ADT and barkskin (-20% damage taken) you need

74*(1-0.2)*(1-0.12)*0.98*0.97*0.80/0.75 = 52824 HP. Easy!

178 is an easy number = 130 from FR aura + 25 head enchant + 20 on cloak + 8 FR patch.

Figure this might be a more practical way to present all this.
The tables show various FRs, the average resistance corresponding to them, and the maximum possible breath damage taken after all appropriate multipliers (Assumes BoS or vigilance). The last column is the minimum pre-pull HP to survive without cooldowns or absorbs, but this is only very relevant in the 10 man.


10 Man

FR	Avg Resist	Max Breath	Min HP
125	20%	45374	60499
215	30%	40333	53777
334	40%	35291	47055
500	50%	30249	40333

25 Man

FR	Avg Resist	Max Breath	Min HP
125	20%	56716	75621
215	30%	50414	67219
334	40%	44112	58816
500	50%	37810	50414

Edit 2/09/09 - changed required resistance values to reflect a constant of 500 instead of 415.

I was able to get to 50931 HP with the 415 FR gear listed previously. This is as a LW/Enchanter. LW/JC can get to 51791.

Looking at gear, I figured out you actually can get more HP from using the [Inferno Hardened Leggings] and [Nexus War Champion Beads] ([Boundless Ambition] and [/item]drakescale collar[/item] aren't as good as but still result in higher HP) and the FR patches on Chest and Boots in addition to Gloves, 51401 non JC (50969 NE).

The best I've managed without being a LW is as JC/Ench (or BS I guess), 50561 with [Blastguard Boots] and the extra FR patches, or 50581 with [Inferno Hardened Boots] with the FR Neck and Inferno Legs.

NE's will be 432 HP lower

Well that's just special...

Got my first Effulgent this afternoon, and confirmed this just now. Has no effect on damage taken, but increases all resistances by 2%. This would also explain why the numbers didn't match unless the gem reduction was applied to both taken and resisted amounts (whereas all other effects apply only to taken). It in fact applies to neither...

Rather amusing that no one's noticed this before. Either way I suppose there's not much lost by keeping the gem in a spare helm - it can get you up to 8 resistance if you're shooting for 415, a little less obviously if you're lower, and the armor loss isn't too terrible.

Will edit table and various inaccurate comments in a bit.

Also I've been meaning to ask - where did the 11250 and 14062 numbers come from for max base damage? Is that just the highest numbers people saw looking through logs, or is there some way to look spell ranges up? Just wanted to make sure they were accurate in the tables, and not taking the meta gem into account somehow.

I just tested this with Holy Vengeance, to see if maybe the increased resistance was in addition to the spell reduction. There's no difference with and without the Effulgent.

So...effulgent does nothing with 0 resistance. Lovely. I wonder if this is working as intended; at the very least I am going to file a bug report to get the tooltip changed.

This does in practice change the overall maximum damage taken and makes the gem less valuable overall, but it should still be in there in practice, I suspect; at 400 FR it provides another 8. Given that the armor bonus does nothing, it's better than, well, nothing. But still very disappointing.

Strange, my fire resist sums up correctly with and without the Effulgent (it is active) - or is the character display broken too? 164 should show an error greater than one ...

I found them on the ability list on wowhead: Sartharion - NPC - World of Warcraft

Odd... So you're saying taking the helm on or off only changes your FR by 25?

Not having put the FR enchant on my helm yet, taking it on and off definitely changes my charsheet resistances by 2%.

Well that's handy...

Warning: the following is simply mulling over details of the resistance math, ideally this type of discussion should move to the more general thread here, but I wanted to comment on something Erdluf suggested.


What you've proposed seems to work with all the new data I've gathered, and I'll be adding this to the main resistance thread. However there is one "problem" case that remains extremely confusing to me - 100 FR. I gathered a lot more data, and the mean resistance seems to be converging more and more reliably to 19.5%, not 20%. While this may seem like a trivial error, it results in a very visible preference for 10% resists over 30% resists, when both "should" be equally likely if the mean were exactly 20%. Applying the distribution you describe (to the observed mean of 19.5%) does yield the observed results, as long as the probability for a 0% resist is simply added to the 10% resists.

In other words... in terms of "minimum allowed resist", the 100 FR case behaves as if its mean resist is 20%. The chance that a 0% resist is possible (with probability based on a 19.5% mean), and I have just not seen one yet, is 1 in 6 million with the sample size I have. Yet, in all other aspects, the distribution is acting as though the mean is 19.5%, and simply turning 0% resist rolls into 10% ones.

Interestingly this issue does not exist at 54 FR, and the observed mean is right on the predicted.

Well we finally got this down tonight, and stacking resist really helped us out a lot. With 415 exactly, I could basically take the breaths alone without help (SI first one, usually carried to the 2nd, Barkskin the next, and FR pot for the last) For the most part, there were no problems except for 1 breath. I forgot to turn my log on to WWS it, so I dont have a lot of data, but this one in particular I did write down - Breath hits for 41864 (6095 resisted) (279 Overkill )

So that is a total breath of 42143, with 6095 resisted.

Taking from the base spell, the only resist % that works out is 50%, which is a base hit of 6095.

6095 x 1.75 x 2 x 1.5 x .88 x .97 = 27314

Which is well below the actual breath hit.



But if we assume that the resisted amount comes after the Shadron disciple buff:

6095 / .3 = 20316 / 1.5 = 13544, which falls within the breath range.

Also:
13544 x 1.75 x 2 x .88 x .97 = 40464

Much closer, but still not quite the right damage. It was during a wipe anyway so my Vig tank might've been dead (didn't check that when I looked at my log), which pushes it up to 41715 and is pretty much the observed number (~1% lower)


The important thing here though is that it appears to be a 30% resist on that breath. I know that I still had the FR aura on (it wore off with the rest of my stuff when I died) all my gear and flask was still good. So that seems to point to either:

1) 415 is not the resist cap. Unless theres some data in the general thread on resists, 415 is still just the working theory, and could be wrong.

or

2) I was at exactly 415 with the Meta, which could mean that the displayed number is rounded up on the 2%. Just like the case with defense, the actual number displayed on your char sheet is rounded, so you need to go 1 over to ensure that its actually above the cap. Just punching up the numbers I get 412 FR from Gear/Aura, but 2% extra makes it 420, not 415. But if we remove enchants/buffs, my actual gear alone only gives me 134 FR + 2% = 136.68, adding in the other 278 gets me to 414.68.


Ok, I think I just answered my own question. So in conclusion: If you are using the Effulgent meta, make sure you have 416 resist, and secondarily Effulgent Skyflare only affects FR on gear itself. Just like the bear form multiplier, enchants/buffs do not count towards the Effulgent. So it sucks even more!

No one is claiming 415 is the resist cap, just that it is the minimum required to resist 50% on average. You also mention you were wiping, it's possible that you had lost your FR aura/totem before the breath.

I'm also not seeing the same errors with my Effulgent meta. Not using MotW, Totem, Aura, or Flask; At 232 FR, I have 105 from enchants (helm, back, bracers) and 127 from gear exactly (41 shoulders, 55 legs, 31 ring, I discovered that BoE Greens have more FR and Stam than the level 70 epics!) Removing my helm (25 FR + Effulgent) reduces my FR by 25 to 207. On the off chance that Effulgent isn't stacking with the Helm Enchant (redundant Aura because both are helm?) I wasted the money to re-enchant my helm with the caster enchant, 207 FR still.

The very very very odd thing, is that while my FR didn't change at any point, my Frost Resist was. The 3 Polar Leather items = 287 FrR. Without the Effulgent, it shows 287, with the Effulgent it goes up to 293, meaning it does matter somehow, exactly how is what's weird.

Do you perchance have a list of the gear that gets you over 50k with 415 resist? Try as I might I can't quite get over 50k.

Most of my FR came from enchants/flask which is not multiplied by the meta. It is indeed working as reported (+2% FR on Items).

This may be a stupid question, but is it possible that your Effulgent meta wasn't activated while you were testing Fire Resist and it was activated while you were testing Frost Resist?