Sartharion 3D Druid MT tips - Page 6

Murck · 01/27/09, 6:27 AM

So with a Shadron acolyte and a torment debuff the breath hits for like 30ish k or am I misscalculating anything?'
Assuming Shadron is dead ofc

Vaccine · 01/27/09, 8:10 AM

People need to post which mode they are talking about, otherwise its impossible to decipher.

Murck · 01/27/09, 9:55 AM

Originally Posted by Vaccine

People need to post which mode they are talking about, otherwise its impossible to decipher.

Oh so sorry getting late here at work

Mean the 10 version

Blazefire · 01/27/09, 3:56 PM

So I've been working on the OS10 version of 3 drakes for a few weeks and we've been so close to home stretch (2 drakes dead) on several occasions, only to have what should be a kill shot negated by a healer taking a flame wall or me getting 1 shot as the Druid Sarth MT.

Our raid composition pre-3.0.8 had been 3 tanks and 3 healers and with enough cooldowns and twilight dancing, it seemed fine. However yesterday we changed things to a 3 tank and 2 healers setup since you can no longer twilight dance and we wanted to get out of the 1 shot phase quicker, since we had less cooldowns available. After spending several hours with it last night, I like having the extra DPS, and we don't seem to be shorthanded by 1 less healer. However, on several really good attempts, were Tenebron was dead and Vesperon was within 10% of dying I get one shot by his breaths despite popping my cooldowns. I have 38.9k HP once the fight starts, and with SI popped I was still getting crushed by ~50k breaths. Have I just been unlucky with getting the high end of the damage range or is there more I can do to live through this? Mind you, since it is a 10 man, we will be in the 1 shot range or a couple breaths, and we have less cool downs available to live through them. Obviously GS will prevent a death, but thats only good once and when its time to rely on my own cooldowns, it just feels like surviving is a matter of RNG.

Whats the typical setup people have been using since 3.0.8 with regards to tanks and healers?

Wackedupwacko · 01/27/09, 11:14 PM

Top end breaths in 10man are i believe 57200 before reductions. For a druid tank this means that at any point the maximum breath are just over 50k so you pretty much took the absolute top end without resisting any damage. In terms of surviving it other than using a major CD (PS, GS, BoSanc, Roar of Sac, AMZ etc) is SI + Barkskin or SI + fr pot or Barkskin + fr pot. There really isnt much more a druid can do other than pop 2 things for absolute top end. Whether you are willing to pop 2cds for the small chance or not is up to you.

Originally Posted by Habba

That's probably because you're relying on just your one cool down per breath and a priest's PW:S. The whole PW:S theory hinges on nothing bad is going to happen to cause you to A) not be 100% topped and B) Your healers are not going to have to move at all. Read my whole post next time please. I did mention PW:S can let you live through a breath. However, the point that you're glossing over is what happens after a breath. Assuming that you raid with a disc priest (I do not) and that his PW:S will cover 6k hp. That puts you at a grand total of 45k HP. Wonderful, you now have a whole 4 to 5k HP for the period directly following a breath. The random cyclones hit for more than that not to mention the cleave or white hits that can happen.

I'm not certain why people are getting so hung up on "using only my cool downs". It's all well and good and you can do it. However, I can also choose to play with my mouse in my left hand instead of my right. I don't because it is more comfortable and safer from a raiding stand point to use my mouse with my right hand.

yeh sorry about not reading that part. There is one thing to note, you should not be attempting this if your mt healers cannot heal the breath INSTANTLY. Breaths are a 2s cast. Your healers should be alert for breaths and have their casts land right after the breath. Bigger casts if you have anticipated it and precasted (GH, HL) even a Flash + shock is about 8-12k. You should not be on 4-5k hp for longer than 0.5 seconds.

The only freakish death we've ever had was with our dk tank (32k hp after vesp debuff) where flamebreath top ended him for 36k leaving him on 1k and then taking a cleave 0.1 seconds after for 1.2k damage. Needless to say there isnt much we couldve done for that. There was even a heal registered on recount at 0.12seconds before death for 14k crit.

kalbear · 01/28/09, 1:52 PM

While we've not been able to get him down, I was able to test out my basically max FR gear set with the breaths. With it, I was able to survive 80% of breaths without cooldowns. I would get very, very low on occasion (2k ish) but would otherwise survive it. It did mean that I needed to be topped off at all times.

With this set the max breath I took was 35k. I had just above 36k health with the debuff. I did take one 40k breath, but this was after my FR aura was removed.

I don't know whether this would be possible without the leatherworking bracer patch. With buffs, I had a total of 380 FR and 48k health.

NinJOu · 01/29/09, 4:48 AM

You mean you were able to survive breath WITH Vesperon & Shadron acolytes up ? 10 or 25 men ?

If so, can you post your set up please ?

Thx =)

kalbear · 01/29/09, 12:49 PM

Yes, I was able to survive breaths with vesp/shad and acolytes up. Using no cooldowns. In 25man. In practice I used some cooldowns because I was worried about taking that much damage and then getting meleed down. I did have a disc priest, but PW:S wasn't up all the time and I did survive a breath, taking 35k, without shield.

I'll log out in my gear and post it later. The quick answer is:
FR to bracers
FR to helm + Effulgent Skyflare diamond
Wyrmcultist cloak + FR to cloak
FR neck (+30)
One FR ring
Flask of Chromatic Wonder
FR pally aura

Everywhere else was basically stam. At the time, it was 48k health buffed, 380 FR.

halmmar · 01/29/09, 2:57 PM

Originally Posted by kalbear

Yes, I was able to survive breaths with vesp/shad and acolytes up. Using no cooldowns. In 25man. In practice I used some cooldowns because I was worried about taking that much damage and then getting meleed down. I did have a disc priest, but PW:S wasn't up all the time and I did survive a breath, taking 35k, without shield.

I'll log out in my gear and post it later. The quick answer is:
FR to bracers
FR to helm + Effulgent Skyflare diamond
Wyrmcultist cloak + FR to cloak
FR neck (+30)
One FR ring
Flask of Chromatic Wonder
FR pally aura

Everywhere else was basically stam. At the time, it was 48k health buffed, 380 FR.

I've also taken quite a few breaths in 25-man with both acolytes and drakes still up. I use less FR and more stamina though.
42k health after aura and
60 FR on wrist
25 FR on helm
20 FR on cloak (Shadowed Sun)
130 FR Aura
50 Lesser Flask of Resistance
285 FR (~25% damage reduced, Barkskin is easily enough to live a breath, as is Nightmare Seed+Fire Pot or Survival Instincts)
To be honest this fight isn't that hard to tank once your dps know what to do (nuke hard and fast).

Diameter · 01/29/09, 3:07 PM

Originally Posted by kalbear

Yes, I was able to survive breaths with vesp/shad and acolytes up. Using no cooldowns. In 25man. In practice I used some cooldowns because I was worried about taking that much damage and then getting meleed down. I did have a disc priest, but PW:S wasn't up all the time and I did survive a breath, taking 35k, without shield.

I'll log out in my gear and post it later. The quick answer is:
FR to bracers
FR to helm + Effulgent Skyflare diamond
Wyrmcultist cloak + FR to cloak
FR neck (+30)
One FR ring
Flask of Chromatic Wonder
FR pally aura

Everywhere else was basically stam. At the time, it was 48k health buffed, 380 FR.

Do you have a WWS you could provide us with to back up this claim? It seems to be that a 35k breath with no PW:S is still quite close to 1 shotting you. I built a specific set of gear to main tank Sartharion, which maximizes my stamina (no surprise there). However, if I can get enough data on resistances, I may be able to build a new table showing the resistance against level 83 direct-damage spells much like WoW -> Info -> Basics -> Resistances, but adapted for the new 0%,10%,20%...100% resist percentages which were changed as Wrath went live. I don't believe the new resist %'s based on your magical resistance has been analyzed to this extent. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Also, from what you've listed, I'm only counting 354 Fire Resist. Were you missing something?

kalbear · 01/29/09, 4:45 PM

Also, from what you've listed, I'm only counting 354 Fire Resist. Were you missing something?

Probably. This was from memory. Maybe a second ring?

Here's the WWS report for the night. I did take a 40k hit, but that was after losing my FR aura from a pally.

Polyphaser · 01/29/09, 5:18 PM

my 2 cents
25 man and 10 man

#1 Tank Postion

Watch this video for a good Tank Position I don't care what else they do in this video and anything else you see isn't relevant just the Tank position is all I am using this video for as a reference. The Tank position is pretty critical no matter where you put him!
Bosskillers World of Warcraft Bosses, Guides, Movie Reviews and Guild Kills

#2 I wear Fire Resist , This works FYI and works well!

Gear
[Valorous Dreamwalker Headguard] With [Arcanum of the Flame's Soul] ,[Effulgent Skyflare Diamond] and [Regal Twilight Opal]
[Cloak of the Shadowed Sun] With [Formula: Enchant Cloak - Superior Fire Resistance]
[Hateful Gladiator's Armwraps of Triumph] With [Pattern: Fur Lining - Fire Resist]
Consumables are as follows:
[Flask of Chromatic Wonder]
[Blackened Dragonfin]

#3 Two mods will help you out here:
a) Quartz - provides a nice enemy cast bar you can use to look for the Flame Breaths
Make sure to use one of the following every Flame Breath while Vesp's add is up
Barkskin,Survival Instincts,Frenzy Rengeneration
b) Tank Warning - Anounces when you use Barkskin/Survival Instincts
- This is good because you will be using your Priest shields and pally Divine Gaurdian ; lets them know when you are all out of cooldowns.

#4 Avoid the Flame walls and don't let him breath on your raid simple stuff that's about all you can do as the Sarth tank.

dmacika · 01/29/09, 6:07 PM

Originally Posted by Polyphaser

[Pattern: Fur Lining - Fire Resist]

Has anyone built a realistic Fire Resist set that doesn't include the Bracer enchant for non-LW?

killets · 01/29/09, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by dmacika

Has anyone built a realistic Fire Resist set that doesn't include the Bracer enchant for non-LW?

No, I can only get around 280 without going to any extremes (like using Void Spheres). I do use a green level 78 cloak of fire protection though.

In the end, it's just luck whether or not I get gibbed or not at that resist level, as in 10 man, I don't have nearly enough resistance or cooldowns to survive every breath.

Just hope I survive enough of them until they can get Shadron down.

Mijae · 01/30/09, 4:02 AM

I've seen a few studies on resistance, but nothing really conclusive imo. It may be that resists are on a 10% scale now, but if you just stand in the lava by Sarth you'll see different resist amounts on constant damage. It's clearly not a constant percent reduction. For fights like tanking the adds on Illidan an average resist might be useful. However, for Sarth we need to deal with worst case scenarios. What would be great is a formula to figure out both minimum resist and average resist.

Just how much stamina is FR worth? Are you willing to use best in slot stamina items?

Here is a list of FR I can find. The ratings are given in terms of ( FR gain / Sta loss ). Of course, some of these items also reduce other stats. It will be very hard to calculate this value though.

[Enchant Cloak - Superior Fire Resistance]
[Arcanum of the Stalwart Protector] vs [Arcanum of the Flame's Soul] (3.571)
[Deadly Gladiator's Dragonhide Gloves] vs [Inferno Hardened Gloves] (0.702)
[Fur Lining - Stamina] vs [Fur Lining - Fire Resist] (0.667)
[Deadly Gladiator's Dragonhide Legguards] vs [Blastguard Pants] (0.656) [Inferno Hardened Leggings] (0.585)
[Gatekeeper] vs [Phoenix-fire Band] (0.600)
[Heavy Borean Armor Kit] vs [Flame Armor Kit] (0.444)
[Boundless Ambition] vs [Pendant of Frozen Flame] (0.395) [Amulet of the Torn-heart] (0.375)
[Frosthide Leg Armor] vs [Lesser Arcanum of Resilience] (0.364)
[Cloak of the Shadowed Sun] vs [Wyrmcultist's Cloak] (0.343) [Fiery Cloak] (0.316)
[Polar Boots] vs [Inferno Hardened Boots] (0.319) [Blastguard Boots] (0.294)
[Polar Cord] vs [Blastguard Belt] (0.294)
[Greater Inscription of the Gladiator] vs [Inscription of Endurance] (0.233)
[Solid Sky Sapphire] vs [Void Sphere] (0.167) (0.222 in Polar Vest) (0.333 in T7 helm)

The helm enchant is a no-brainer. I put it on a secondary helm with an [Effulgent Skyflare Diamond] and a stam socket. I also put the cloak resist enchant on a secondary tanking cloak. Beyond that it's interesting to note how close in value (or better) the level 70 resist gear is to the bracer enchant. However, they are lower in armor, avoidance, and threat.

Edit: Fixed math on a few FR ratings.