Sartharion 3D Druid MT tips - Page 8

Shamgarr · 01/31/09, 2:19 AM

Those numbers seem to be within confidence intervals for the case you listed, though the probability of each aim point might be a little different than 25/50/25. Certainly at the lowest FR, 100, the distribution is not symmetrical. I'm not sure yet if that's a difference in the overall formula, or some kind of modifying factor as resistance nears 0.

Here's a case that just about confirms what Mijae described:

I put on exactly 399 FR, and took 633 samples, with these results:

60% Resist: 144 (22.8%)
50% Resist: 337 (53.2%)
40% Resist: 148 (23.4%)
30% Resist: 4 (0.6%)

I don't have an exactly 400 FR combo to test, but I think it's a pretty safe bet that it would eliminate this small chance of a 30% resist, as expected. This is again for 80 mobs, with the expectation of 415 for boss level.

Maraili · 01/31/09, 7:34 PM

I'm gearing up to tank Sarth for our 3 Drakes attempts (10 man) and I just wanted to ensure that I'm properly understanding what all has been said in this thread so far with regards to how much damage I will be taking during his breath.

Once again, this is for 10 man not 25 man Sarth

Base Breath:
8750 to 11250 Fire Damage

Breath Multipliers:
Power of Shadron: +100% fire damage taken
Disciple of Shadron: +50% fire damage
Disciple of Vesperon: +75% damage from Sartharion's breath

Total Breath Damage (worst case):
11250 * 2.00 * 1.50 * 1.75 = 59062.5 Fire Damage

That figure above is before any mitigation effects. I have put together a set of gear that when fully raid buffed puts me *exactly* at 415 Fire Resist, and if I'm reading the post by Shamgarr correctly, this means that in a worst case scenario I will only resist 40% of the breath attack damage. This is the part that I'm the most unsure about, because his tests were done at 429 FR, but elsewhere in the thread people have stated that the cap is 415. Am I able to assume that his results still stand for the slightly reduced FR value (415) that I have with my gear? If needed I can push my FR higher but I'd prefer not to as I give up more stamina then.

Damage Reduction:
Protector of the Pack: -12% damage
Effulgent Skyflare: -2% spell damage
Fire Resist: -40% fire damage
Vigilance/Blessing of Sanctuary: -3% damage

Breath Damage Taken (worst case):
59062.5 * 0.88 * 0.98 * 0.60 * 0.97 = 29644.5 Fire Damage

Unless I have miscalculated how the damage buffs/reductions are calculated, I believe that if I'm geared/gemmed for Stamina, then I should be able to survive each breath without having to resort to using cooldowns (although they would still probably be used as an extra safety net). Getting enough Stamina while using the Lvl 70 Fire Resist gear is its own challenge though, made slightly easier by the fact that I am LW/JC.

Also, I feel like I'm forgetting something under the Damage Reduction section, but it continues to elude me. Or am I just imagining things?

Shamgarr · 01/31/09, 10:19 PM

The 429 test was just me throwing all the FR I had on, without bugging anyone for a totem/aura. There's no other significance to the number.

The theory is that for a boss level mob, the probabilities at 415 FR will be the same as the results at 400 FR vs an 80 "mob". The last data set I posted at 399 FR should be pretty much your odds with that set on, minus that small chance of a 30% resist due to being 1 point under the threshold.

Without rigorous testing vs. boss-level mobs, it's still just a plausible guess at this point - there could in fact be some harsher level penalty than just changing the constant from 400 to 415.

Either way I think you'll be in pretty good shape, and am interested to hear how it goes. Just don't let that FR totem run out or aura get out of range ^^

And I don't believe you missed anything in the damage reduction math, other than Grace which does seem to stack, but disc priests aren't terribly common.

bracul · 02/02/09, 6:15 AM

First of all, I'd like to thank you for the valuable insight of the resistance mechanic and any other further information.

Given my little math understanding I'd like to ensure that having a total fire resistance of >415 eliminates the possibility of an one-shot by 100% - assuming the feral tank is at around 37k HP topped. Feel free to correct me on that one, since I'm not quite sure I can follow the reasoning behind the formulas and theorycrafting.

The reason why I ask is because I'm of one our two ferals which should serve as a Sartharion-sponge. I've followed some of the rather old discussions about stacking stamina and so I'm not quite sure anymore what's the best way of dealing with the breath. From what I gathered max-stamina gear requires at least some cooldowns like Hand of Sacrifice and such.
With the use of resistance is it safe to say you don't have to rely on any outside-cooldowns?
I should add that I'm talking about the 25-man version, so its safe to assume we have at least one priest for an PW:S. Also our priests are quite protective of their CoH-specs so I'm not quite we'd have something like Guardian Spirit oder Pain Suppression - although that's just a minor problem with handling talent respecs.

So, in short: If I were to tank Sartharion - what would be the keyfigures?
Like: max HP before Vesperons Aura: ~4xk? (Calculating with some of the provided data in here, I'd estimate about 46k?)
Fire Resistance: 415?

My colleague argued that gimping his gear to about 330FR with imp. MotW would leave him around ~30k HP after the 25%debuff. Still, it was just an spontaneous gathering of old 70 FR-gear. He also mentionend the increase of physical damage resulting from the death of the drakes would leave him in a bad situation. Is transitioning after the three drakes are dead an viable option?

nightcrowler · 02/02/09, 9:45 AM

Maximum breath is 74k in 25 men.

To ensure surviving it with 415 resist (40% resist is the worst case scenario) you need:

74*(1-0.4)*(1-0.12)*0.98*0.97/0.75 = 49.522k HP before the -25% debuff.

74 is for breath, 0.6 for fire res, 0.88 fur PoP, 0.98 for metagem, 0.97 for BoSanc or Vigilance, I've not taken into account grace because you can't be sure it's 100% uptime (but I know it's near there).

I don't know if it's possible to manage a 49.5k hp - 415 resist set.

I'll see it soon with rawr.

EDIT:

I don't think I'll be able to use old level 70 FR gear (I don't have them in bank and I should redo old istances for badge.. I don't like the idea).
So my question was: How much fire resistance I need to let barkskin alone and Survival Instinct alone be 2 viable cooldown to use, here is the answer.

The Resistance formula is:

415/(415+Resistance) = Average damage taken = ADT

So, suppose I want to be sure to resist at least 20% of the damage, using the ADT +/- 10% rule, I need ADT =70% = 0.7

Resistance = 415(1-ADT)/ADT = 178

with 178 ADT and barkskin (-20% damage taken) you need

74*(1-0.2)*(1-0.12)*0.98*0.97*0.80/0.75 = 52824 HP. Easy!

178 is an easy number = 130 from FR aura + 25 head enchant + 20 on cloak + 8 FR patch.

Shamgarr · 02/02/09, 11:01 AM

Figure this might be a more practical way to present all this.
The tables show various FRs, the average resistance corresponding to them, and the maximum possible breath damage taken after all appropriate multipliers (Assumes BoS or vigilance). The last column is the minimum pre-pull HP to survive without cooldowns or absorbs, but this is only very relevant in the 10 man.

10 Man

FR	Avg Resist	Max Breath	Min HP
125	20%	45374	60499
215	30%	40333	53777
334	40%	35291	47055
500	50%	30249	40333

25 Man

FR	Avg Resist	Max Breath	Min HP
125	20%	56716	75621
215	30%	50414	67219
334	40%	44112	58816
500	50%	37810	50414

Edit 2/09/09 - changed required resistance values to reflect a constant of 500 instead of 415.

Boevis · 02/02/09, 12:48 PM

I was able to get to 50931 HP with the 415 FR gear listed previously. This is as a LW/Enchanter. LW/JC can get to 51791.

Looking at gear, I figured out you actually can get more HP from using the [Inferno Hardened Leggings] and [Nexus War Champion Beads] ([Boundless Ambition] and [/item]drakescale collar[/item] aren't as good as but still result in higher HP) and the FR patches on Chest and Boots in addition to Gloves, 51401 non JC (50969 NE).

The best I've managed without being a LW is as JC/Ench (or BS I guess), 50561 with [Blastguard Boots] and the extra FR patches, or 50581 with [Inferno Hardened Boots] with the FR Neck and Inferno Legs.

NE's will be 432 HP lower

Shmanel · 02/02/09, 2:04 PM

I was putting together a FR set today and I noticed some odd numbers. I was wearing Blastguard Pants (40), Amulet of the Torn-Heart (24), Inferno-Hardened Gloves w\ +8FR (48), Phoenix-Fire Band (30), Head Enchant (25) which should come to 40 + 24 + 48 + 30 + 25 = 167, but my character sheet displays 170. Then I started taking off a few pieces, and noticed the pants were worth 41, and the ring 31. I would've done a more thorough job checking but I had to get to work. At first I just figured SotF was affecting resists now, but I checked my Polar pieces and the numbers didn't quite match up (don't recall offhand). Also, I know the other day I had a SR buff from a priest and it read 130, so that couldn't be it. The only thing I could come up with was the Effulgent Meta.

So this raises a few questions.

1) Is Effulgent really 2% less spell damage, or just +2% to resistances? I'm stuck at work all day so I can't check, but that does seem to about match (167 + 2% = 170.34)

2) Is it still as effective? Everyone here puts my math skills to shame, so I'll defer to the experts, but just as a gut feeling it doesn't seem as good. Also it would mean the max breath numbers would change just slightly, so those nice tables Shamgarr posted could be wrong.

Shamgarr · 02/02/09, 2:53 PM

Originally Posted by Shmanel

I was putting together a FR set today and I noticed some odd numbers. I was wearing Blastguard Pants (40), Amulet of the Torn-Heart (24), Inferno-Hardened Gloves w\ +8FR (48), Phoenix-Fire Band (30), Head Enchant (25) which should come to 40 + 24 + 48 + 30 + 25 = 167, but my character sheet displays 170. Then I started taking off a few pieces, and noticed the pants were worth 41, and the ring 31. I would've done a more thorough job checking but I had to get to work. At first I just figured SotF was affecting resists now, but I checked my Polar pieces and the numbers didn't quite match up (don't recall offhand). Also, I know the other day I had a SR buff from a priest and it read 130, so that couldn't be it. The only thing I could come up with was the Effulgent Meta.

So this raises a few questions.

1) Is Effulgent really 2% less spell damage, or just +2% to resistances? I'm stuck at work all day so I can't check, but that does seem to about match (167 + 2% = 170.34)

2) Is it still as effective? Everyone here puts my math skills to shame, so I'll defer to the experts, but just as a gut feeling it doesn't seem as good. Also it would mean the max breath numbers would change just slightly, so those nice tables Shamgarr posted could be wrong.

Well that's just special...

Got my first Effulgent this afternoon, and confirmed this just now. Has no effect on damage taken, but increases all resistances by 2%. This would also explain why the numbers didn't match unless the gem reduction was applied to both taken and resisted amounts (whereas all other effects apply only to taken). It in fact applies to neither...

Rather amusing that no one's noticed this before. Either way I suppose there's not much lost by keeping the gem in a spare helm - it can get you up to 8 resistance if you're shooting for 415, a little less obviously if you're lower, and the armor loss isn't too terrible.

Will edit table and various inaccurate comments in a bit.

Also I've been meaning to ask - where did the 11250 and 14062 numbers come from for max base damage? Is that just the highest numbers people saw looking through logs, or is there some way to look spell ranges up? Just wanted to make sure they were accurate in the tables, and not taking the meta gem into account somehow.

Thessaly · 02/02/09, 3:21 PM

I just tested this with Holy Vengeance, to see if maybe the increased resistance was in addition to the spell reduction. There's no difference with and without the Effulgent.

kalbear · 02/02/09, 3:28 PM

So...effulgent does nothing with 0 resistance. Lovely. I wonder if this is working as intended; at the very least I am going to file a bug report to get the tooltip changed.

This does in practice change the overall maximum damage taken and makes the gem less valuable overall, but it should still be in there in practice, I suspect; at 400 FR it provides another 8. Given that the armor bonus does nothing, it's better than, well, nothing. But still very disappointing.

Stirius · 02/02/09, 3:30 PM

Originally Posted by Shamgarr

Got my first Effulgent this afternoon, and confirmed this just now. Has no effect on damage taken, but increases all resistances by 2%. This would also explain why the numbers didn't match unless the gem reduction was applied to both taken and resisted amounts (whereas all other effects apply only to taken). It in fact applies to neither...

Strange, my fire resist sums up correctly with and without the Effulgent (it is active) - or is the character display broken too? 164 should show an error greater than one ...

Also I've been meaning to ask - where did the 11250 and 14062 numbers come from for max base damage?

I found them on the ability list on wowhead: Sartharion - NPC - World of Warcraft

Shamgarr · 02/02/09, 3:48 PM

Originally Posted by Stirius

Strange, my fire resist sums up correctly with and without the Effulgent (it is active) - or is the character display broken too? 164 should show an error greater than one ...

Odd... So you're saying taking the helm on or off only changes your FR by 25?

Not having put the FR enchant on my helm yet, taking it on and off definitely changes my charsheet resistances by 2%.

I found them on the ability list on wowhead: Sartharion - NPC - World of Warcraft

Well that's handy...

kalbear · 02/02/09, 5:58 PM

In case you were curious, I posted it on the bug reports. Someone else linked the tooltip for the aura ability, and it does appear to be adding 2% more resistance. So it's definitely how it's coded; what I don't know is whether or not that's as intended.

Shamgarr · 02/02/09, 6:33 PM

Warning: the following is simply mulling over details of the resistance math, ideally this type of discussion should move to the more general thread here, but I wanted to comment on something Erdluf suggested.

Originally Posted by Erdluf

Here is a simple probability distribution that seems to be reasonably close to this chart...

What you've proposed seems to work with all the new data I've gathered, and I'll be adding this to the main resistance thread. However there is one "problem" case that remains extremely confusing to me - 100 FR. I gathered a lot more data, and the mean resistance seems to be converging more and more reliably to 19.5%, not 20%. While this may seem like a trivial error, it results in a very visible preference for 10% resists over 30% resists, when both "should" be equally likely if the mean were exactly 20%. Applying the distribution you describe (to the observed mean of 19.5%) does yield the observed results, as long as the probability for a 0% resist is simply added to the 10% resists.

In other words... in terms of "minimum allowed resist", the 100 FR case behaves as if its mean resist is 20%. The chance that a 0% resist is possible (with probability based on a 19.5% mean), and I have just not seen one yet, is 1 in 6 million with the sample size I have. Yet, in all other aspects, the distribution is acting as though the mean is 19.5%, and simply turning 0% resist rolls into 10% ones.

Interestingly this issue does not exist at 54 FR, and the observed mean is right on the predicted.