Worth looking only Mimiron parse from that link as I didnt have a clue about freya/ignis match but had practised mimiron a lot on ptr/10man. First Night of 25man Mimiron for me so theres still much to improve.
Stuff I found out when practising Mimiron:
-In P1 position yourself at start so that you dont get range issues when Mimiron rushes back to MT after the melee range explosion and make sure you are not standing where the tank is going to run, otherwise you get into Mimirons melee explosion/mine range which is obviously not good. If everything goes perfectly you dont have to move at all during P1. If needed to move, try to move when you have to refresh dots.
-P2 Watch out for the remaining mines and try to find a good spot with enough room around the turret. Try to pop barkskin when hes shooting you. During spinup dont reposition for too much. You can see the remaining time on spinup and move only as much as needed.
-P3: propably different tactics into this one but atleast I was assigned to dps only the Helicopter and assault bots. We had warlock tanking the heli and hunter kiting the bots. Atleast watch for agro a bit at the start as warlocks doesnt have any good snap agro skills. Also dont go all out on a freshly spawned assault bot, dps helicopter instead and switch to assault bot a few secs later. Also dont bother dotting assault bots as they drop really fast just spam SF on em.
-P4: At P3-P4 transition farm dps from the remaining scrap bots with hurricane. Try to keep double dots on all 3 parts of the boss. Use typhoon as much as possible as it hits all 3 parts. Rotate starfire between the 3 parts to refresh MF as much as you can and to be sure that E&M buff stays up on all the parts of Mimiron as much as possible. Ofc when solar eclipse procs you spam wraths. Spread out, try not to get hit by spinup, move as little as possible.
General stuff: The fight is awesomely designed for moonkins, typhoon is great for P4 as well as starfall as they hit all the three targets. Dots are awesome in P4 . Talents like gale winds, typhoon and spell pushback reducing talents are great, conc aura from pally is a must. Moonkin frenzy would propably be good too, as you are constantly taking hits.
What comes to mana regen, I had to innervate myself+mana pot on quite many tries. You shouldnt go there without some mana regen talents. And dont bother using treants, they die way too early.
Moving as little as possible, smart target switching, keeping dots up on 3 targets and ofc farming scrap bots for damage = key to success at Mimiron.
If anyone tells you that an all melee team is needed to do this burn, tell them to stuff it :p The other Boomkin's overall damage for the fight is low because she taunted and ran with tenebron when enrage hit.
Never thought I'd even touch 6k, I'm pretty thrilled.
69% DPS time as you can see. The only time I would DPS is when I was in a shadow crash. There is no point in DPSing and wasting mana outside of it. I pretty much ignored eclipse as there is just way too much movement going on. Between the shadow crash knock back avoidance and separating from the drain life, anytime I bothered to proc an eclipse I was forced to move immediately after, so I settled for getting as many SFs of as possible in the shadow crash. (I used Starfire because the casting time speed increase made wrath clip)
69% DPS time as you can see. The only time I would DPS is when I was in a shadow crash. There is no point in DPSing and wasting mana outside of it. I pretty much ignored eclipse as there is just way too much movement going on. Between the shadow crash knock back avoidance and separating from the drain life, anytime I bothered to proc an eclipse I was forced to move immediately after, so I settled for getting as many SFs of as possible in the shadow crash. (I used Starfire because the casting time speed increase made wrath clip)
I'm questioning whether or not to just stop casting all DoTs during the fight and focusing on SF spam. I think it might be worth the effort to wrath till eclipse first though. 15% crit will significantly boost your damage on SF if you can get it procced quickly. Maybe cast 5 seconds of wrath to attempt eclipse and then switch to SF default beyond 5 seconds because you lose too much dps from wrath clipping beyond a short time. Thoughts?
I'm questioning whether or not to just stop casting all DoTs during the fight and focusing on SF spam. I think it might be worth the effort to wrath till eclipse first though. 15% crit will significantly boost your damage on SF if you can get it procced quickly. Maybe cast 5 seconds of wrath to attempt eclipse and then switch to SF default beyond 5 seconds because you lose too much dps from wrath clipping beyond a short time. Thoughts?
As an extreme example here's our best attempt last night where the only spell I cast was Starfire: WMO General Vezax. The attempt was a failure (run AWAY from people when you get MotF DAMMIT), but the total time was about midway between the two parses posted above, so it's comparable in that regard. Notice that despite my low DPS time (between 1.5-2 minutes less than the other parses, due to poor positioning I think) and poor SF crit rate, I'm not too far below them in total damage, and I landed more than twice as many Starfires in that time. My take on it is that DoTs aren't worth casting outside of Shadow Crash because of the mana cost, and aren't worth casting inside Shadow Crash because they're already instant. Starfire inside Shadow Crash was just over 1 second, and just under 1 second with NG up. Why bother with Wrath at all when it has the same effective cast time as Starfire?
We basically had one healer "kiting" shadow crashes and subsequently moving the boss to them to all dps and tank could benefit from them (reduced power cost worked for all energy/rage/rp). My spell dps is somewhat deflated with this method as im always meleeing the boss for a little extra damage but our overall raid dps was very good for a first kill even though it was fairly sloppy.
As i said previously, this strat has been nerfed multiple times. Firstly, they started requiring more members out of melee range else shadow crash and mark would hit them causing way too many problems. The magic number was 3 ppl on the 10 man version, I have not tested 25 man yet but im sure the info is out there. Secondly, the new nerf which does not appear to have gone through yet removes the ability for melee classes to benefit from the reduced power cost. However, we had a 10 man group complete the fight after this announcement and still had melee cost reduction. Assuming the fix won't apply till the timer reset.
Try 20 was nealry perfekt, no adds 4 Phase 3, but in the last second unlucky spawn of a large tentacle I love 4pc T8, dotting some little Adds and got 3 Freecasts in a row while Lunar aktiv is just goodlike
Our 25 man Kologarn kill last night. I may have been picked up by the hand once, and had our add tank kite the adds out of hurricane a few times. Other than that a pretty clean kill.
Its interesting that you logged a 4.5k dps for that attempt, but had an actual dps of over 11k. The actual dps may imply that the SF only casting method may be workable if more time was spent in shadow crash areas. How often were you in shadow crashes compared to the fight's duration? I'm still thinking a few initial W hits to proc Lunar may be worth it. Crit damage accounts for the vast majority of your overall SF damage during a typical fight...sometimes up to 80%+ of your total SF damage. The haste buff should allow 2-3 times as many SF casts in a Lunar phase.
Last edited by Thermomenes : 04/30/09 at 11:04 AM.
Its interesting that you logged a 4.5k dps for that attempt, but had an actual dps of over 11k. The actual dps may imply that the SF only casting method may be workable if more time was spent in shadow crash areas. How often were you in shadow crashes compared to the fight's duration? I'm still thinking a few initial W hits to proc Lunar may be worth it. Crit damage accounts for the vast majority of your overall SF damage during a typical fight...sometimes up to 80%+ of your total SF damage. The haste buff should allow 2-3 times as many SF casts in a Lunar phase.
The haste buffs provided on various fights in Ulduar are still bound by the standard rules on GCD (so 1.0 is the minimum effective cast time possible), providing a limit of 15 starfires during eclipse, or about 12-13 in the real world with reaction time and lag. Due to the movement issues if you get another shadow crash on the shadow crash group, a mark of the faceless on that group, or similar problems with the shadow crash area, as well as the normal possibilities of crit and/or eclipse proc randomness casuing a long delay prior to proccing, it may not be a viable tactic to go for an eclipse proc when there are no +% crit buffs provided outside the normal ones (and that natures grace is close to worthless while in shadow crash. It is worth investigating whether a solar eclipse is actually worth using in the case of providing better DPM whilst in shadow crash (especially for hard mode on Vezax).
The haste buffs provided on various fights in Ulduar are still bound by the standard rules on GCD (so 1.0 is the minimum effective cast time possible), providing a limit of 15 starfires during eclipse, or about 12-13 in the real world with reaction time and lag. Due to the movement issues if you get another shadow crash on the shadow crash group, a mark of the faceless on that group, or similar problems with the shadow crash area, as well as the normal possibilities of crit and/or eclipse proc randomness casuing a long delay prior to proccing, it may not be a viable tactic to go for an eclipse proc when there are no +% crit buffs provided outside the normal ones (and that natures grace is close to worthless while in shadow crash. It is worth investigating whether a solar eclipse is actually worth using in the case of providing better DPM whilst in shadow crash (especially for hard mode on Vezax).
I've hit a Solar during Vezax in a shadow crash. It doesn't hit for as much as an SF. SF gets really close to the GCD (1.2s or less)and may bottom out at 1s. So a W chain casting scenario would be less dps because it hits for less during a Solar eclipse, has less of a crit chance than SF during a Lunar eclipse, and has about the same cast time.
I've hit a Solar during Vezax in a shadow crash. It doesn't hit for as much as an SF. SF gets really close to the GCD (1.2s or less)and may bottom out at 1s. So a W chain casting scenario would be less dps because it hits for less during a Solar eclipse, has less of a crit chance than SF during a Lunar eclipse, and has about the same cast time.
Vezax Guide:
Apply IFF, moonfire (and IS I suppose if you'd like)
Stand around
Find Shadow Crash
Spam starfire (keeping MF up)
Watch your SF crit for close to 26k and have a 1s cast time
Laugh at everyone else
Win
Every once in a great while I would fine a pool to regen mana, but the amount of crits I was getting kept my mana pretty constant. The biggest issue honestly was threat, I would do damage in bursts then have to stop because no tank can keep up with 26k starfires over and over and over.
but the amount of crits I was getting kept my mana pretty constant
Except Moonkin Form regen doesn't give you mana back due to the aura.
You shouldn't ever be casting any damage spells outside of shadow crash. 70% mana reduction on spells and +100% damage on spells from shadow crash means you get approximately 7 times the DPM while in shadow crash than when not in it (unless it's very close to the end of the fight and you are no-where near shadow crash with a significant amount of mana left). The haste buff (+100% haste) means that Starfire is easily the highest DPET on the fight.
Thermo, I was talking about DPM not DPS. Considering that you wouldn't want to use Lunar eclipse due to not wanting to cast Wrath without any eclipse buff (due to issues with DPM and DPS of casting wrath on it's own and potential for wasting eclipse uptime), it may be true that between the choice of pure starfire spam and the choice of starfire spam until wrath eclipse, and then using wrath under eclipse, that using the solar eclipse provides better DPM than continuing with starfire spam.
Apply IFF, moonfire (and IS I suppose if you'd like)
Stand around
Find Shadow Crash
Spam starfire (keeping MF up)
Watch your SF crit for close to 26k and have a 1s cast time
Laugh at everyone else
Win
Every once in a great while I would fine a pool to regen mana, but the amount of crits I was getting kept my mana pretty constant. The biggest issue honestly was threat, I would do damage in bursts then have to stop because no tank can keep up with 26k starfires over and over and over.
In short: SF spam for general
I agree with this post. I was whispered a recount of me doing 8.2k DPS on a Vez. We wiped, but i ran 325 haste and as much crit and SP gear as I had. I was around 22% crit before popping into monkin. The problem was threat. We had to have both hunter chaining MD's and rogues using ToT and i still ran our druid and warr down on threat.
Apply IFF, moonfire (and IS I suppose if you'd like)
Stand around
Find Shadow Crash
Spam starfire (keeping MF up)
Watch your SF crit for close to 26k and have a 1s cast time
Laugh at everyone else
Win
Every once in a great while I would fine a pool to regen mana, but the amount of crits I was getting kept my mana pretty constant. The biggest issue honestly was threat, I would do damage in bursts then have to stop because no tank can keep up with 26k starfires over and over and over.
This druid needs help badly, well badly is an understatement. What am I doing wrong I dont think it could be my gear.
I use the ImpFFF for the hit and Crit, Treants on all 3 bosses, Starfall when CD was up, IS and MF refresh when not in Eclipse and I use Wrath to Procc my eclipse. I had a haste Totem on me so I was guilt of firing of an extra Wrath at the beginning of the Eclipse. I think I might have had 2 Rune of Powers and I was guilt of breaking the Shield Barrier once. But why am I failing so bad on the DPS counts.
Except Moonkin Form regen doesn't give you mana back due to the aura.
You shouldn't ever be casting any damage spells outside of shadow crash. 70% mana reduction on spells and +100% damage on spells from shadow crash means you get approximately 7 times the DPM while in shadow crash than when not in it (unless it's very close to the end of the fight and you are no-where near shadow crash with a significant amount of mana left). The haste buff (+100% haste) means that Starfire is easily the highest DPET on the fight.
Thermo, I was talking about DPM not DPS. Considering that you wouldn't want to use Lunar eclipse due to not wanting to cast Wrath without any eclipse buff (due to issues with DPM and DPS of casting wrath on it's own and potential for wasting eclipse uptime), it may be true that between the choice of pure starfire spam and the choice of starfire spam until wrath eclipse, and then using wrath under eclipse, that using the solar eclipse provides better DPM than continuing with starfire spam.
This may be true on paper, but I would think that spell-queuing issues might lead to Wrath having a longer effective cast time than Starfire (not to mention all the extra button-mashing you'd likely be doing), meaning at best you do more DPM (less DPS) for some extra hassle, and at worst you do less of both and develop carpal tunnel. Personally I haven't really run into mana issues on the fight yet, but I'd probably recommend trying this tactic for moonkin who have.
If you're doing hard mode you have another 10 million hp to go through (the saronite animus), and no regen available, which is why I'm pondering the DPM situation.
If you're doing hard mode you have another 10 million hp to go through (the saronite animus), and no regen available, which is why I'm pondering the DPM situation.
This is a valid concern, so let's look at the situation. We'll assume that you're only casting inside shadow crash (this is the correct tactic anyway, but it's absolutely necessary for hard mode). I'll reference Graylo's numbers from a few posts up. Mind that they do assume very high end gear.
Inside shadow crash casting time of SF is around 1 second (NG uptime will approach 1, shadow crash gives 100% haste, so (3/((1+0.2944)*1.2)))*0.5 = 0.96sec if NG is indeed 1), and casting time of Wrath is the GCD. Let's approximate them as the same for simplicity.
SF costs 16% base mana and has average damage of 8308 per hit. Wrath costs 11% base mana and has average damage of 4440 per hit. So SF costs 16/11 = 1.4545 as much as wrath, and does 8308/4440=1.871 the damage, assuming no eclipse. Now let's say you got a solar eclipse, and your wrath now does 4440*1.3=5772 on average. SF now does 8303/5772=1.438 as much damage as wrath. With 2T8 the ratio is 1.28. I ignored the shadow crash damage boost since it applies to both spells equally and all I care about are ratios.
Conclusion: outside eclipse SF has better DPS and DPM than wrath. Inside solar eclipse SF still has better DPS, but wrath has better DPM.
On a related note, do not forget to cast treeants from inside shadow crash. The +100% damage is a huge boost to them, and well worth the GCD and 12% base mana cost. Starfall is sadly not worth our mana in this fight.
Now let's say you got a solar eclipse, and your wrath now does 4440*1.3=5772 on average. SF now does 8303/5772=1.438 as much damage as wrath.
You should actually be assuming 2t8 by this point (as I doubt anyone going for Vezax Hard is going to be using 4t7, simply due to the difference in int between the two sets), so it swings it even further in Wraths favour during solar eclipse.
Except Moonkin Form regen doesn't give you mana back due to the aura.
Trufax. After tonight's run I realize the regen I was getting was coming from the mana regen pool being underneath of shadowcrash, sorry for the misconception everyone.
I will try Vezax for the first time tomorrow and i am wondering if our mana regen talents work in this fight. I read that raid abilities- mana regen doesn't .
So i know weather i must take Intensity,moonglow and dreamstate.
I will try Vezax for the first time tomorrow and i am wondering if our mana regen talents work in this fight. I read that raid abilities- mana regen doesn't .
So i know weather i must take Intensity,moonglow and dreamstate.
Any feedback on this? Thank you.
No regen at all. Not from talents, not from mana pots, not from innervate. So, yes: if you intend to respec for "/1 V," you can safely spec out of intensity and dreamstate. Moonglow doesn't actually have anything to do with regen, so I'd go full 3/3 if I were doing that. However, I didn't respec at all for him; I did just fine with my current, somewhat regen-heavy, spec.
Apply IFF, moonfire (and IS I suppose if you'd like)
Stand around
Find Shadow Crash
Spam starfire (keeping MF up)
Watch your SF crit for close to 26k and have a 1s cast time
Laugh at everyone else
Win
Every once in a great while I would fine a pool to regen mana, but the amount of crits I was getting kept my mana pretty constant. The biggest issue honestly was threat, I would do damage in bursts then have to stop because no tank can keep up with 26k starfires over and over and over.
In short: SF spam for general
Forget dots and IFF. I used my idea of W to proc and SF spam. WWS
I was able to replicate Knoway's actual dps and blow out his overall dps this week. During 1 attempt I logged a sustained 11.6k dps and never went under 9k in other attempts. In the kill attempt I finished with 9k dps. However, at the end of the fight there were a few shadow crashes in melee range which some of our ranged went for and which I stayed back from. I didn't want to blow up the melee and increase raid damage. The rest of the ranged shouldn't have been in melee range at all. I'm sure more uptime in better placed Shadow Crashes would allow me to sustain that 11k dps in longer attempts. Yes, threat is a serious issue.
04/21/09, 6:10 PM
I love 4pc T8, dotting some little Adds and got 3 Freecasts in a row while Lunar aktiv is just goodlike 
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