Quick question. I recently got the Lifebinder staff from Ulduar 25 this past weekend, and I lost about 2% crit from my MH/OH, but gained about 40 overall spellpower, a TON of haste and a bunch of Intellect/Spirit. My question is, when should I stop dropping crit? I might be psyching myself out, but it seems I'm getting 'eclipse starved' more. I haven't been able to use the staff in an optimal raid environment yet.
I have checked your balanced spec and i guess the one you gonna use for the vezax fight is 58/00/13 The World of Warcraft Armory
I got some questions for you, are you going to ignore eclipse under the whole fight since you dont have any points in eclipse and no points in imp IS
means you are not going to use dots either because its just wasting GCD instead of spamming SF ?. The 3 points you got in owlkin frenzy is that for mark of the faceless dmg and accidental dmg from not avoiding shadow crash ? atm im just trying to find the most optimal spec for vezax + hodir since i have problems getting high dps out put on those particually fights.
Mm, for Vezax hard mode you need to spend as little mana as possible, so the spec is focused on mostly just Starfire spam in the Shadow Crash. Also because of the need to never get hit by Shadow Crashes in the hard mode, there'll be much more movement so I don't really see the need to have Eclipse. It'll most likely end up getting wasted most of the time due to movement. And ya, I'm mostly skipping the dots except for Omen procs. I'll prolly use Starfall>Moonfire most of the time with my OOC procs and if I know a Surge of Darkness is coming, either an IS or Hurricane(if Surge is already in effect). If it were any other fight, I wouldn't use this spec.
Originally Posted by Arawethion
For a pure Vezax Hard spec, why the points in IMF, or Starfall? MF and Starfall both seem too low-DPM to cast.
I'm still planning to keep points in Eclipse, due to the potential DPM gain of 2T8 Solar Eclipsed Wrath.
Mostly because there aren't much more other points that are worth it if I plan to avoid Eclipse and Typhoon like the plague. And I'll still be casting MF and Starfall during OOC procs.
Originally Posted by sulliwan
Ignoring eclipse on Vezax is just stupid. Using solar eclipse, you trade 15% dps for 32% higher DPM for the duration of the eclipse. If mana is not an issue for you, lunar eclipse is ~10-12% dps increase overall with 2p t8 and taking into account the lower dps from the wraths you need to cast to proc it.
General Vezax hard mode creates mana issues for everyone. There's no casting unless in a Shadow Crash and Starfire is the most efficient to cast in a Shadow Crash.
I'm almost mostly testing this spec atm. I haven't actually tried it yet so we'll see soon enough. I'll be testing it on easy mode probably since we're aiming for a full clear and don't have the time for anymore hard modes this week. So I'll probably try it by not going to any clouds throughout the fight.
General Vezax hard mode creates mana issues for everyone. There's no casting unless in a Shadow Crash and Starfire is the most efficient to cast in a Shadow Crash.
But Wrath with a Solar Eclipse up is more efficient than a Starfire.
The only problem I see with using Eclipse on Vezax is the terrible DPS loss, yes DPM is important on Vezax hard mode, however so is DPS. Throttling back in P1 to have mana for P2/3 is more viable than losing DPS to gain DPM, imo.
Thanks to everyones advice in the raiding thread, managed to shine on Hodir hard mode. - took me a few attempts to get there but overall, pretty pleased with the DPS since it beat the other moonkins previous record :D
The only problem I see with using Eclipse on Vezax is the terrible DPS loss, yes DPM is important on Vezax hard mode, however so is DPS. Throttling back in P1 to have mana for P2/3 is more viable than losing DPS to gain DPM, imo.
What?
Lunar eclipse is both more DPM and more DPS.
Edit: was wrong about solar eclipse, lunar eclipsed starfires are by far more DPM than solar eclipsed wrath, while wraths do of course use less mana per time. So there really is no point using solar on Vezax.
Also, how exactly do you "throttle back" without losing damage?
Last edited by sulliwan : 06/02/09 at 2:59 AM.
Reason: oops
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For our Vezax attempts with my Starfire spam spec. Next week I'll be trying my Eclipse spec again trying to not stand in the gas clouds.
For the Vezax kill, I ended up oom at the end and went into a cloud to inch in a few more DPS points. Also, I went in one kind of early because I did end up wasting some not in a Shadow Crash. Oh, I also used my 4pc t7 instead of the 2pc T8 considering I didn't have Eclipse.
Mimiron and Yogg both don't show up on WWS. The Thorim try 10 was a Normal Mode kill. The rest were hard mode attempts, with some really really bad screw ups causing early wipes, so I wouldn't look at those. Also just ignore the Emalon kill since I wasn't even paying attention to that.
The problem I ran into doing Vezax on hard mode was no matter what I did my mana pool was shy, Eclipse or not. It feels like you have to throttle off no matter what. Waiting for Eclipse procs just doesn't seem viable except Solar since you're spamming a good DPM spell to get to it. Using Wrath to proc Lunar was frustrating as well with spell queueing was a loss in DPS. Throttling off and just using SF with no Eclipse seemed to net the best dps/dpm returns.
The problem I ran into doing Vezax on hard mode was no matter what I did my mana pool was shy, Eclipse or not. It feels like you have to throttle off no matter what. Waiting for Eclipse procs just doesn't seem viable except Solar since you're spamming a good DPM spell to get to it. Using Wrath to proc Lunar was frustrating as well with spell queueing was a loss in DPS. Throttling off and just using SF with no Eclipse seemed to net the best dps/dpm returns.
I don't see how you keep saying you're having mana issues and then saying in the same breath that you don't want to use Eclipsed Wraths because of clipping/low DPS. Either you're running out of mana or you're not by the time the fight ends. If you are, you should be maximizing DPM.
The reason I'm particularly in favor of Solar here is because there's no opportunity cost to using it. You're going to be spamming Starfire anyway, and you have nothing better to do with the 3 points than put them into Eclipse. Anytime you're lucky enough to be in a Crash with Eclipse up you can take advantage of the opportunity to throw some high-efficiency Wraths. Lunar I can see being more annoying, as it has wind-up time and you may be forced to move before you can take advantage of the proc. But it's still probably worth trying for, say if you just got into a fresh Crash.
Basically I just did my best to minimize downtime. I never ever (for the most part) stopped casting something. If I was running to a tentacle I would dot all the ones I run past, I would wrath the mobs while they went to the center, I'd summon my treants and let them get killed 1 by 1 to stop the diminish.
Very nice. Curious what you found worked the best, proccing eclipse or ignoring it w/ Storm Power and Moonbeam or what?
To be honest it was quite messy for me, I can just recall hugging fire till I saw a Storm Cloud and grabbed that and ran to the nearest moonbeam and SF spammed till my biting cold was going up or icicles were going to fall on that spot then I would move to another beam and continue, and by then my biting cold would be down again from the movement. Then at Flash Freeze I'd help free a mage add and look for a moonbeam nearest a toasty fire.
During hero I just tunnelvisioned it and dpsed - as suggested by my raid leader! Only stopping to free a mage add if it happened.
I procced eclipse at the start of the fight while we were building up the stacks on Hodir but after that I wasn't proccing it intentionally unless I wrathed a freeze or stopped to get a quick wrath off en route to a moonbeam. I was quite mobile but less than I had been - for instance I tended to move as soon as I'd see icicles would drop this time I waited to finish casting and then moved and dotted on the move but I think my dot uptime was horrible there. Also waited with starfall till I had storm power aswell.
Did get lucky though storm cloud 3 times and 2 moonbeams near fires
The reason I'm particularly in favor of Solar here is because there's no opportunity cost to using it. You're going to be spamming Starfire anyway, and you have nothing better to do with the 3 points than put them into Eclipse. Anytime you're lucky enough to be in a Crash with Eclipse up you can take advantage of the opportunity to throw some high-efficiency Wraths. Lunar I can see being more annoying, as it has wind-up time and you may be forced to move before you can take advantage of the proc. But it's still probably worth trying for, say if you just got into a fresh Crash.
Pretty sure the fight is important in both aspects; DPS and DPM. Yes you need to have the DPM to finish the fight. Yes you need the DPS to meet the soft enrage of healers running oom or profound darkness becoming unhealable. My best results were throttling back from SF spam (keeping up e&m) and picking it back up in P2 to ensure I had the mana to burn the Animus down maximizing dps and Vezax afterwards.
The thing that ropes me in is that SF is good DPM and DPS in this fight and while I might be casting more often for slightly better DPM using the less mana over time Solar Eclipse you lose a lot of your top end DPS although I guess you could always switch it up for P2. Going to give it another shot at Solar, the math is on point, but I still feel like i'll be punching my wall between crashed Wrath cast. However when the Animus is up I just can't see using anything but SF spam to maximize sustained DPS, even if I do lose a little DPM.
Crit doesn't become better than haste for Lunar cycles at any level of current stats.
I never implied that, I simply asked if I was gimping myself by continually dumping all my crit for haste? It's kind of hard to proc eclipse when you can't/don't crit.
I never implied that, I simply asked if I was gimping myself by continually dumping all my crit for haste? It's kind of hard to proc eclipse when you can't/don't crit.
Isn't that the same question? If haste rating is better than crit rating, then no, you're not doing anything bad by trading crit for haste.
Im not sure how my dps is doin atm, but it feels like in naxx it was a bit higher usin t7 ect.
unbuffed in moonkin im running (2560 spell power, 516 haste, and 22.34% crit). In raids im almost at 3k spl.
So not sure if im just doin it wrong or what now. It has been a while since i bothered looking at EJ / forms about MK, so forgive me if it appears terribad.
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis - Hard mode council kill. My DPS dips down in the Steelbreaker phase due to heroism and every other dps spamming cds and I tend to try to proc eclipse but even with a speed pot and SF spam I can't seem to keep up.
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis - Thorim HM only logger was from arena so dps in gauntlet probably isn't registered. Pushing 6k in what I think is the Thorim dpsing phase.
World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis - Ignis, was going great till gibbed in pot twice, however I seem to be low on this fight compared to others every kill, I assume its due to the stopping casting but not sure - anyone else have problems like that on this one fight?
Iroc Council - Hard Mode Our IC Hard Mode Kill, the hardest part of this is simple pushing out the DPS needed after the 2nd add dies. We use three tanks and Soulstone two of them, our DK takes the first meltdown and then the Pally, then our warrior. After that our DK or Pally will take hima gain and our DPS has to kill him before the 4th tank dies.
WOL - Thorim Hard Mode - I was in the Arena so the 75% active is dropping my overall damage. However we actually used the NPC Haste buff and with that and actually getting to stand still I was seeing 1.1 - 1.2 second cast times of Starfire (while NG and Hero were up) Normal cast time were still around 1.6 seconds. I was burning through mana, but with my own innervate I was able to DPS the entire time.
Hodir - Hard Mode I zoomed in on the actual fight, since Hodir was casting Frozen Blows when he was dying a bunch of people got trapped in them, we were very close to missing the hard mode due to the cast too. On one of the other attempts I was over 11k DPS but it is just hard to consistently stay that high. I settled for standing close to a toasty fire the entire time and using the normal Lunar Rotation. It provided me with more consistent results since every DPS' goal was to hit 9k. I would try and proc eclipse and get in a beam for the haste and since we were grouped up I would occasionally get the storm cloud buff which would push my damage way up. I did not have 4pc t8 for this kill, so I would imagine that having that and possible getting a SF of while moving would be a help.
Isn't that the same question? If haste rating is better than crit rating, then no, you're not doing anything bad by trading crit for haste.
You still aren't following what I'm saying. Yes, haste is better than crit, who doesn't know that. But if I took that to an extreme and had 0% chance to crit, and 1,500 haste, it would mean I'm wasting my time speccing in eclipse, no? I'm simply wondering if there's math out there that calculates the very minimum amount of crit you need. With the amount of haste I have, my Wrath casts are already as low as they can go, so obviously once my Wrath cast times are maxed out on haste, losing enough crit at a certain point will end up hurting my DPS since I'll spend more time waiting for an RNG crit so I can actually use my haste.
I am a bit lost here... I read these forums pretty much daily and try to absorb as much as I can from all of you. My concerns are on this WWS Report Wow Web Stats I am over 1k dps behind the other boomkin. I am not sure what I am doing wrong... I am doing a IFF, IS, MF, Wrath till eclipse then Starfire and reapplying IS and MF as needed during Eclipse as I watch my Sqauwk and Awe timers.
You still aren't following what I'm saying. Yes, haste is better than crit, who doesn't know that. But if I took that to an extreme and had 0% chance to crit, and 1,500 haste, it would mean I'm wasting my time speccing in eclipse, no? I'm simply wondering if there's math out there that calculates the very minimum amount of crit you need. With the amount of haste I have, my Wrath casts are already as low as they can go, so obviously once my Wrath cast times are maxed out on haste, losing enough crit at a certain point will end up hurting my DPS since I'll spend more time waiting for an RNG crit so I can actually use my haste.
Follow?
The point is moot since you'll always have some crit from raid buffs, int, talents and synergies. Anyway, you can just play with Wrathcalc, input your stats and lower crit to see how the relative values change. In my case, 0 crit on gear still has haste better.
You still aren't following what I'm saying. Yes, haste is better than crit, who doesn't know that. But if I took that to an extreme and had 0% chance to crit, and 1,500 haste, it would mean I'm wasting my time speccing in eclipse, no? I'm simply wondering if there's math out there that calculates the very minimum amount of crit you need. With the amount of haste I have, my Wrath casts are already as low as they can go, so obviously once my Wrath cast times are maxed out on haste, losing enough crit at a certain point will end up hurting my DPS since I'll spend more time waiting for an RNG crit so I can actually use my haste.
Follow?
I get what you're saying, I'm just trying to imply that you're thinking about it the wrong way. Current spell rotation models take into account the Eclipse delay, and this will be reflected in the marginal value of crit (it turns out to be a very small effect). So yes, if you could tank your crit in favor of haste, it would be a good thing to do (until the effects of diminishing returns began to equalize their value, but this would take quite a while). There's no special minimum at which the mode of analysis changes.
e: and specifically referring to the fact that eventually Wrath is GCD-locked, and then at very low crit values you spend a high percentage of time in pre-Eclipse, casting a spell which doesn't benefit from haste--yes, this factor would slightly accelerate the rate at which haste would lose value in such a situation. But it's not scenario which is anywhere close to present behavior, and it doesn't cause any sudden change in the result.
06/01/09, 4:01 PM
Curious what you found worked the best, proccing eclipse or ignoring it w/ Storm Power and Moonbeam or what?
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