delle

I believe that it has been said before that the wrong eclipse proc is still better than no eclipse proc. So when you have that last starfire go off and crit just after the eclipse inner cooldown is up and you proc an eclipse its still better to spam wrath thru the duration and then switch back to starfire during the cooldown.

I think if it along the same ways as not canceling casts unless you have a lava wave coming your way only this time you are not canceling your buff by ingnoring it, you still get a damage increase so use it. Just not the one that you were looking for.

 

• Arawethion

Definitely true out of Lust time, not sure within it. I still proc lunar eclipses during Lust, absent any solid math to the contrary.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Vyshe

Agreed, I always follow the Eclipse proc and use wrath/sf accordingly outside of hero, sorry for being unclear about that in my question - the part I'm unsure about is what (if any) dots to keep up during the proc. With an SF Eclipse I always refresh MF (unless it looks like it will make the difference between one more SF with proc benefit or not). But with Wrath, is it worth keeping (as in possibly refreshing) one or even both dots up, or is it better to just try and fit as many wraths as possible into the proc duration? And the same question but under hero/lust, with the added possibility of maybe ignoring wrath completely and just going MF/SF spam for glory.

Gut feeling: try to keep both dots and spam Wrath on top during Wrath Eclipse, MF/Wrath during Wrath Eclipse+Hero, possibly just MF/SF through the duration? Ok, all done parading my lack of math skills-.-

 

Khalanis

when determining whether or not to apply dots during an eclipse you need to consider the ammount of dmg the dots will do while you are under the influence of eclipse vs the ammount of dmg increase eclipse would provide during the same amount of cast time.

an example
you have 9s left on a wrath eclipse, if 20% of a normal wrath is less dmg than ~4 ticks from IS it would be beneficial to apply IS. Adding onto that, if you have IIS then you would need to include that dmg potential onto the IS opertunity cost aswell.

 

Vyshe

Hmm, shouldn't I also account for the gcd lost applying IS, where I would otherwise be casting a wrath if I'm looking at the eclipse duration exclusively? Especially during hero where wrath = gcd?


Hmm.. so, I tried to do the math myself. Teh horror... The figures I got using wws numbers put the wrath eclipse bonus to be worth ~1k dmg per wrath on average, approximately the same as a single IS tick. If I understand you correctly, that means it's worth getting IS up almost until the last ~2s of eclipse? Even including the gcd spent it would be a good call in general to get it up except during hero.

I counted some more and asssuming I did it right (not likely^^), then the answers to my questions would be:

wrath eclipse: MF/IS/W
wrath eclipse+hero: MF/SF

I look forward to corrections

 

• Adoriele

Hmm. Khalanis makes a point here. The GCD that you spend on IS (or MF) during Eclipse isn't lost completely. When you cast a DoT during Eclipse, you're not losing out on full SF time, just time with the Eclipse benefit because you're still planning on casting that IS anyway, you're just choosing whether or not to postpone it. So the difference isn't a GCD's worth of Eclipsed SF versus how many DoT ticks you get, but (Eclipsed SF - RegularSF) vs. DoT ticks.

With my original calcs, I.E. ESFDPS*GCD/ISTick, you'd need 6.34 ticks of IS to make it worthwhile. Makes sense. But with the new calc, (ESFDPS-SFDPS)*GCD/ISTick, you're looking at only 1.34 ticks of IS to outweigh the time lost. MF would be an even smaller number.

I can't help but feel like I've looked at this before, though, and can't remember if/why I threw this out. Hamlet, any ideas why I feel like I'm missing something?

 

• Arawethion

A little. We talked about this briefly on IRC once.

When you cast a DoT with X seconds remaining on Eclipse, you're generally trading 1 GCD of Eclipsed casting for 1 GCD of unEclipsed casting, like the poster said above. So you think you'd compare the difference between the two (roughly 30% of the value of a Starfire crit) against the value of X seconds of DoT uptime (ticks + IIS benefit).

But that fails to account for one more loss in casting the DoT, which is that it will then expire earlier than if you'd refreshed it after Eclipse. So you have to use a GCD earlier than you would if you hadn't refreshed it.

The overall effect here is that, though trying to compare the scenarios exactly becomes hard (since now your DoT casts are staggered for the rest of the fight), a policy of recasting DoT's during Eclipse will lead to more GCD's used over the course of the whole fight. This isn't accounted for if you only compare the Starfire against the X seconds of DoT uptime, and will make refreshing look slightly worse (not sure how much).

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

verungi

Patchwerk WWS

I was fairly satisfied with my rotation that night. I didn't have a flask on and I'm still specced for full mana regen so I think I have potential to up the damage a bit.

Moonfire uptime looks ok to me (95%), but IS (63%) seems a bit low. I tried to put IS up after eclipse and refresh it just before eclipse's cooldown was over. The kill was pretty slow so I got two sets of treants in.

 

Geigon

Wow Web Stats

last night's PW , i went for haste rather than crit , 400+ dps increase , if i had at least one Power Infusion i would get to 6.100+ dps :O (our mages r haters and give the Focus buff to locks and holy palas )

crap part is i am 7th on meter with 5700 dps , coz most of my guildies are doing their job quite well

PS: conclusion : haste >> crit for moonkin high-end gear

 

Humbaba

Hamlet, are you clipping your IS casts with about a second to go? I tried to get one cast right at the end of Eclipse when the next cast wouldn't finish with the proc up and then again right before the debuff ended, but I was generally clipping 1s of the time. The caveat, of course, is the awesome MG lag.

 

• Arawethion

I just throw one after a Wrath if I need to rather than clip it. It's not obvious this is optimal, since it extends the cycle a bit and this is one of those things that's hard to theorycraft out, but I would guess it is. It shouldn't come up all that often though if you're being vigilant about timing everything (depends on the fight) and aren't standing too far away from the boss.

Technically, if you want to sacrifice no Eclipse time or Eclipse-proc time at all, you only have time for 1 of each DoT (during the Eclipse CD). But so far I haven't seen anyone make a case for a cycle with <50% IS uptime.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Neverfrozen

Hey all. I was wondering if someone could go through my WWS parse and help me improve my DPS. Currently, my gear is very close to almost best-in-slot for each slot, but on Patchwerk I'm struggling to break 5k. Considering my gear, it feels like 5k should be on the low-end of my DPS and an upper threshold in the mid 5k. So ultimately, I'm looking for some tips to help add another 10% more DPS.

Here's the parse from this week: Wow Web Stats
My armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

I used the cast-time spreadsheet, and assuming I didn't do anything wrong, I had 88% cast time which is "ok" and something I should improve on.

My DoT uptime seemed ok, considering you don't want to interrupt Eclipse. My Moonfire probably could have been up longer.

We had a resto-shaman for BL instead of our normal ele-shaman, so I wasn't able to co-ordinate my trees and BL properly. Not having Totem of Wrath also hurt my DPS.

Taking all these into account, that probably would have pushed me over 5k. But I doesn't seem enough to push me into the 5.5k range. From browsing other WWS parses, what immediately jumps out is that other Moonkin have an average starfire hit of around 6k while mine are only 5.5k. That really confuses me since after armorying those druids, I easily have several hundred more spellpower, counting my Illustration. How is there such a huge discrepancy? I feel like that is the main thing holding me back.

 

Erdluf

I didn't look at your wws.

Totem of Wrath is 280 SP. Starfire Idol is 165 base damage iirc. With WoC (for totem), Moonfury, Master Shapeshifter, and E&M, those two things will add up to about 667 damage per non-crit Starfire.

It never hurts to make sure you've got the top-rank on your spell bar.

[e] Looking at armory and wws, I think changing your meta to CSD would have been worth close to 100 DPS. Over half your total damage done was from SF crits (630k out of 1100k) and CSD increases crit damage by 4.5% (200%->209%).

 

Harlan

This past weeks WWS

Patch

I'm not exactly sure where I should be dps wise and if my roatation is solid. I believe I procc'd wrath eclipse once on accident. Other than that I felt like I tried to do everything right. If anyone could give a brief look and maybe make some suggestions I'd appreciate it.

 

Lastcares

This is from our very first Sartharion+3 kill about 2 weeks ago-
Wow Web Stats

That night i made a new spec for myself to try to remove downtime (improved FF), increase dps on some fights and also make myself more useful in PvP.
WWS from new spec- Malygos and 4 wings
Wow Web Stats
Just Patchwerk
Wow Web Stats

New Spec- The World of Warcraft Armory

 

Eilt

Sure you can do decent with this spec but as you said it makes you more useful in PvP. Skipping Natures Splendor is not a good idea and putting 3 points in moonglow, which is our worst regen talent while you have none in intensity or dreamstate. All so you can pick up Owlkin Frenzy which has been proved (somewhat) even less useful than Brambles if you are not letting yourself get hit on AE fights just to try and proc it [I think there are a few fights that favor OF, but not enough to actually choose it over Brambles].

Also, why are you not taking iFF? Do you not have a feral druid applying it for the free 3% crit?

 

• Adoriele

Even that would be a waste. If you don't have a Feral applying it (or a resto, or another Moonkin), either you have to rely on a BM hunter with the right pet (unoptimal) or you have to burn one of your warlocks' curse slot (unoptimal), so you should be putting up FF anyway. And if you're putting up FF, you should be getting 3% crit out of the deal. Basically, unless you are 16 Resto and need Gale Winds for Sarth (which, by the time you're working on Sarth+ you should have more than enough regen to drop to 13 Resto), there is never a reason to not spec iFF.

 

Lilija

Ah, finally over 5k I gues main bonus goes to the Sarth trinket since I've improved my dps by about 300 even tho I wasn't that lucky with eclipse proc this time.

WWS

Also MF uptime 92% and IS uptime 68% so I gues it's bit better.

 

Beregon

Agreed on the rest, but while Moonglow is our worst regen talent, because of position in tree it is also our cheapest in terms of alternatives. The only alternatives for Moonglow are Imp Moonfire and Genesis, neither of which is going to give much of a DPS increase. Using his WWS as an example: 10% of 7-9% of his DPS means Imp Moonfire would be roughly a .7-.9% DPS increase...worth taking if there aren't better options, but that is a gain of less than 3 DPS.

However, there may examples where Moonfire is a much bigger contributor and if you can drop Intensity and Dreamstate you can probably afford to drop Moonglow as well.

 

Vyshe

Is the extra crit negligable? I keep reasoning that besides the 10% dmg it also gives me an extra NG proc here and there, and makes me feel better about refreshing MF during eclipses^^

 

dukes

I think you meant to do 0.008 * 4341 (which is 35) not 0.008 * 0.08 * 4341 (which is 2.8) ? That's also a fairly conservative estimate of how much damage Moonfire should be doing - his uptime from that WWS on Patchwerk is only ~65%.

The extra crit also means that you will gain a small amount of cast time back from it, and a small amount of mana regen too. It's not significant, but it helps.

 

• Arawethion

Imp. Moonfire is less of a DPS gain than that--it's an additive bonus with Glyph of Moonfire. It's a terrible per-point DPS talent.

Your greater point is correct; I think it's often missed in the "OoC > Intensity > Dreamstate > Moonglow" description. The opportunity cost of Moonglow is IMF; the opportunity cost of any of the other three is one of the ~1% DPS talents. I'd probably take Moonglow first if I needed some mana.

e: I cast Moonfire roughly once every 30 seconds. 10% crit gives me one extra NG proc, roughly 0.3 seconds of cast time, every 5 minutes. This doesn't noticeably improve IMF.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Calaziar

So assuming all the above, as well as the previous posts on this point (IMF) are correct, would one be better off putting 2 or 3 points in Genesis? I find that hard to believe even given fantastic dot uptimes of 80% + for moonfire and 75% IS

 

• Arawethion

IMF is still better than Genesis. Genesis is terrible.

Answers to Moonkin questions:
0) Read the TTT/use the spreadsheet: http://elitistjerks.com/f47/t66856-moonkin_pve_dps/
1) Maintain high DoT uptime. Use WiseEclipse.
2) Nothing beats 2T8.
3) Yes, sometimes you cast many Wraths and no Eclipse procs. Deal with it.

 

Lastcares

I did have owlkin frenzy. I specced resto for some pvp with my brother.
I had Natures splendor but it never really helped from what i saw. Also in raids with 2 ret pallies and a Shadow Priest doing 4-6k dps i do not need regen talents. I seem to find myself innervating others instead.

Owlkin Frenzy procs enough for me to keep my points invested into it and iFF puts downtime into my rotation and even with addons telling me to reapply i sometimes miss it. Too much of a hastle for how fast-pace our pulls are.

Lots of fights do not cause Owlkin Frenzy to proc but at the moment my guild isn't really caring about my dps on any other fights besides sarth 3D.

Also, I have noticed that AoE from some bosses does not proc it. Can't wait for dual spec!