Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Druids

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02/24/09, 11:39 PM   #226
• Melthu
Confused
 
Troll Druid
 
Alterac Mountains
I can confirm that bleed damage is fixed at the time that the bleed is applied. Letting Savage Roar drop will not cause later bleed ticks to lose strength.

Edit: Also confirmed that that the bleed crit multiplier is 1.5 base X 1.1 PI X 1.03 Relentless meta = 1.6995 total.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/25/09, 7:43 AM   #227
Ja7us
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Steamwheedle Cartel
Originally Posted by Monedula View Post
The reason is that berserk indeed does more damage and more threat but it will only do so once every 3 minutes. The relatively small boost you get form 5 seconds more mangle spam is not much.
The best time to use berserk is when you start a fight. Unless you find a lot of rats around you will start that fight with max 30 rage. You can not really mangle spam then. Also a hunters MD will help you. So berserk for tanking has no value.
For any fight where threat matters so far in this expansion, even a little, the boss does such ludicrous damage in general that a single autoattack landing will be enough to guarantee full rage for an entire Berserk. I've been using berserk as an early-fight threat boost since 3.0 hit, and I can count the number of times I ran dry on rage in a fight where it mattered on one hand. You really have to dodge every attack for it to be an issue. It's also a significant DPS benefit in situations where you're tanking more than one mob (both because of the splash mangle damage and the increased ease of keeping the mangle debuff up so as to boost Maul) and in a situation where you have to DPS.

The only time when you'll be one talent point short is if you're trying to build a hybrid tank/DPS spec, and in that situation berserk is a significant enough DPS increase that you're going to take it anyway.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/25/09, 9:21 AM   #228
Taelrien
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Moonglade (EU)
Originally Posted by Dioneirra View Post
[...]
Out of curiousity i also took a closer look at old glyphs. The somewhat useless old Starfall glyph (+2s duration) was changed in a rather strong glyph. Maybe too strong even. Also the old rebirth glyph got buffed.

Glyph of Starfall
Reduces the cooldown of Starfall by 90 sec.
[...]
This is an interesting change.
I tryed to figure if the rewamped Starfall glyph will increase the damage done and is worth it.
Lets assume one single Starfall is doing 14K damage to Patchwerk for each cast:

Without glyph of Starfall
fight duration:
2'20" -> 1 starfall cast -> +14000 damage done
2'50" -> 1 starfall cast -> +14000
3'20" -> 2 starfall cast -> +28000
3'50" -> 2 starfall cast -> +28000
4'20" -> 2 starfall cast -> +28000
4'50" -> 2 starfall cast -> +28000
5'20" -> 2 starfall cast -> +28000
5'50" -> 2 starfall cast -> +28000

With glyph of Starfall
2'20" -> 2 starfall cast -> +28000 damage done (+100%)
2'50" -> 2 starfall cast -> +28000 (+100%)
3'20" -> 3 starfall cast -> +42000 (+50%)
3'50" -> 3 starfall cast -> +42000 (+50%)
4'20" -> 3 starfall cast -> +42000 (+50%)
4'50" -> 4 starfall cast -> +56000 (+100%)
5'20" -> 4 starfall cast -> +56000 (+100%)
5'50" -> 4 starfall cast -> +56000 (+100%)

So it looks like a nice upgrade for shorter and longer fights, with a +100% damage from Starfall.
But the glyph is a major one, so we must trash another, probably the IS one I'm using now.
If so, the damage lost for not having IS glyph is worth the SF glyph?
My current IS ticks for 773 average damage. Assuming a cycle of one IS cast every 17 seconds:

IS damage with glyph
2'20" -> 43288 damage done
2'50" -> 54110
3'20" -> 59521
3'50" -> 70343
4'20" -> 81165
4'50" -> 91987
5'20" -> 97398
5'50" -> 108220

Without the IS glyph the damage lost if the 30%:

IS damage without glyph
2'20" -> 33298 damage done
2'50" -> 41623
3'20" -> 45785
3'50" -> 54110
4'20" -> 62434
4'50" -> 70759
5'20" -> 74921
5'50" -> 83246

In ideal condition, with IS up and mixing Starfall:

damage done by IS+glyph and normal Starfall
2'20" -> 57288 damage done
2'50" -> 68110
3'20" -> 87521
3'50" -> 98343
4'20" -> 109165
4'50" -> 119987
5'20" -> 125398
5'50" -> 136220

damage done by IS and Starfall+glyph
2'20" -> 61298 damage done (+4010 damage)
2'50" -> 69623 (+1513)
3'20" -> 87785 (+264)
3'50" -> 96110 (-2233)
4'20" -> 104434 (-4731)
4'50" -> 126759 (+6772)
5'20" -> 130921 (+5523)
5'50" -> 139246 (+3026)

The math here shows the new glyph is not so powerful against raid boss.
What do you think? Have I missed something?

Italy Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/25/09, 10:02 AM   #229
dukes
Bald Bull
 
dukes's Avatar
 
Dukes
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account (EU)
You need to account for the global cooldown lost (i.e. the damage lost from that cast time) when activating Starfall the extra times.

England Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/25/09, 11:44 AM   #230
Monedula
Piston Honda
 
Monedula's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Defias Brotherhood (EU)
Originally Posted by Ja7us View Post
For any fight where threat matters so far in this expansion, even a little, the boss does such ludicrous damage in general that a single autoattack landing will be enough to guarantee full rage for an entire Berserk. I've been using berserk as an early-fight threat boost since 3.0 hit, and I can count the number of times I ran dry on rage in a fight where it mattered on one hand. You really have to dodge every attack for it to be an issue. It's also a significant DPS benefit in situations where you're tanking more than one mob (both because of the splash mangle damage and the increased ease of keeping the mangle debuff up so as to boost Maul) and in a situation where you have to DPS.

The only time when you'll be one talent point short is if you're trying to build a hybrid tank/DPS spec, and in that situation berserk is a significant enough DPS increase that you're going to take it anyway.
Benefit of berserk:
Mangle every 1.4 seconds. (Assuming some haste).
Perfect versus 3 targets.

Downside of Berserk:
You loose out on not being able to use maul.
You will not build up a lacerate stack. Meaning on the whole fight you are missing 20 seconds (glyphed) of lacerate ticks.
With 4 or more targets it is pretty useless since you will swipe.
With 2 targets you can not use maul since you need the white hits to generate rage.
With 1 target about the same.

No doubt berserking is better in total on threat generated. You can indeed use it. But is 5 seconds extra berserking really worth missing a taunt 8% of the time? Like I said, a missed taunt can wipe a raid, the lack in threat of missing 5 seconds berserk might require the dps to do a bitt less dps, extending the fight by 3 seconds every 3 minutes the fight takes.
A overagro might wipe the raid too, but if somebody overagro's they are idiots. It is their responsibility. They should watch omen and just hold dps for 3 seconds.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/25/09, 12:26 PM   #231
behzad
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Druid
 
Burning Steppes (EU)
Originally Posted by StormGust View Post
Most likely doesn't stack with 4T7. Because else, even more so with the Living seed and Imp. Regrowth change, would have to stay with 4T7 way to long (unless the T8 boni are far better :>)

Though, if we go by the "style"-factor, I'd take the t8 over t7 all the way ;D
glyph of nourish came because sooner or later we have to give up or 4t7 set bonus to get incoming next tier set.
with new Imp. Regrowth talent we gona have at least 45% chance to crit with nourish raid buffed and blizz wont let that happen.also with too many negative feedback so far, i guess this talent will change again to its pre patch state or regrowth crit chance will be increased while nourish crit decrease to something like 10%

Last edited by behzad : 02/28/09 at 6:48 PM.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/25/09, 12:28 PM   #232
Mijae
Don Flamenco
 
Tauren Druid
 
Tichondrius
Originally Posted by Monedula View Post
Benefit of berserk:
Mangle every 1.4 seconds. (Assuming some haste).
Perfect versus 3 targets.

Downside of Berserk:
You loose out on not being able to use maul.
You will not build up a lacerate stack. Meaning on the whole fight you are missing 20 seconds (glyphed) of lacerate ticks.
With 4 or more targets it is pretty useless since you will swipe.
With 2 targets you can not use maul since you need the white hits to generate rage.
With 1 target about the same.
Haste does not reduce melee GCD. You cannot mangle faster than every 1.5 seconds.

Start with an Enrage, Berserk, Barkskin, and then spam Mangle and Maul. With KotJ this really gives a great initial threat boost. I find it pretty much essential on Maly and Sarth. You don't need to stop using Maul unless you are getting rage starved. Bosses hit hard enough that rage is not an issue unless you get a large avoidance streak.

I completely disagree with your analysis of Berserk. I would always take it in a tank build. However, I do agree that the glyph itself has marginal value at best. I've never used the Growl glyph and never caused a wipe due to it. I might consider it with dual spec though.


Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/25/09, 1:17 PM   #233
stauros
Bald Bull
 
stauros's Avatar
 
Stauros
Troll Druid
 
No WoW Account
Originally Posted by Mijae View Post
Haste does not reduce melee GCD. You cannot mangle faster than every 1.5 seconds.

Start with an Enrage, Berserk, Barkskin, and then spam Mangle and Maul. With KotJ this really gives a great initial threat boost. I find it pretty much essential on Maly and Sarth. You don't need to stop using Maul unless you are getting rage starved. Bosses hit hard enough that rage is not an issue unless you get a large avoidance streak.

I completely disagree with your analysis of Berserk. I would always take it in a tank build. However, I do agree that the glyph itself has marginal value at best. I've never used the Growl glyph and never caused a wipe due to it. I might consider it with dual spec though.
Completely agree. Although, I make sure to get a couple of lacerates up before I hit Berzerk and I spam maul/mangle at the same time to take advantage of Rend and Tear. Like you said, very rarely am I rage starved.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/25/09, 3:40 PM   #234
Jishosan
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Archimonde
An odd question, but one I'm not sure of:

How fast do tank druids attack? Is the assumption that this shield should be up on each melee hit with the exception of very fast hitting melee bosses?

If you're not looking at 100% uptime, then your baseline mitigation changes for each boss, Additionally, even if it works on magic, it would still be pretty insignificant. Most magical attacks hit for either a single shot for a great deal more, and there is no previous mitigation from armor, or hit very often, so would pop off the shield more rapidly than the tank might proc it. For bosses that would do 15k damage or so (slow hard hitting bosses), the shield will be up all the time, but at 5000 AP would provide 8% or so mitigation. I don't think you would get worse mitigation from 5k Armor until 45k armor. Even then, the 5k armor mitigation would apply against the faster low hitting targets.

Maybe I'm looking at it wrong? It doesn't really seem like a buff to druids who might be losing 5k or more armor from SotF, especially if they aren't already packing 5000 AP or more.

EDIT: I suppose that if most Bear tanks are expected to be at or near 45k armor before Ulduar and Ulduar will push that up even more, then value of Savage defense scales in a way armor does not. If that was the purpose, then I suppose I can see it.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/25/09, 4:26 PM   #235
Chojee
Glass Joe
 
Chojee's Avatar
 
Tauren Druid
 
Argent Dawn
Originally Posted by Jishosan View Post
How fast do tank druids attack? Is the assumption that this shield should be up on each melee hit with the exception of very fast hitting melee bosses?
Assuming no haste gear, Maul/Autoattack hits every 2.5s and an instant(Lacerate/Swipe/Mangle) can be used every GCD(1.5s), that yields 1/2.5 + 1/1.5 ~= 1.067 attacks per second.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/25/09, 5:43 PM   #236
the KRIS
Bald Bull
 
the KRIS's Avatar
 
Retired
Gnome Paladin
 
No WoW Account
The wording on the Savage Defense tooltip makes me very curious. I'm assuming since it says "melee critical strike," that this refers to any white swing or maul/mangle/swipe/initial lacerate application, but that it does NOT apply to lacerate DoT ticks. However, tooltip wording is not known to be the final authority on spell mechanics.

If lacerate tick crits could proc SD, this would turn lacerate from a low-priority threat ability solely for bigger Maul hits into a somewhat useful mitigatory ability. I'm also curious to see some testing on SD in mass swipe scenarios. I'm sure we're all hoping for no ICD, or at least no greater than one second.

Last edited by the KRIS : 02/25/09 at 7:18 PM. Reason: Not implemented on PTRs.

United States Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/25/09, 7:14 PM   #237
seminarca
Don Flamenco
 
Retired
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account
Savage Defense isn't implemented on PTR yet so we can't test it.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/25/09, 7:43 PM   #238
dakyras
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Draenor
Currently I have over 100 str gemmed into my gear and ruthlessness. With the SR change Str loses its definitive edge and Gore makes agility that much more sexy. If I resocked agi and picked up a strong handed or surge needle I would be up to around 1100 agi unbuffed. Is there a DR on agi => crit% that would make me not want to fully resock?

Currently sit around 7350 AP static unbuffed with 47% crit.

Also sitting on a nobles deck... trade in for the agi version? Glad I didn't have it 2 weeks ago I would have grabbed str deck for sure.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/25/09, 11:50 PM   #239
seminarca
Don Flamenco
 
Retired
Tauren Druid
 
No WoW Account
New PTR push, Glyph of Shred got changed:
Glyph of Shred - Each time you Shred, the duration of your Rip on the target is extended 2 sec, up to a maximum of 6 sec. (Old - Increases the damage dealt by Shred to stunned and incapacitated targets by 20%.)
Another PvP nerf, but for PvE this could be worth using over Glyph of Rip if we can get 3 Shreds in before Rip expires. Even if we only get 2 Shreds, it makes this equivalent to Glyph of Rip, so with OoC procs and smart TF usage, on average this should be better.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/25/09, 11:57 PM   #240
Pzychotix
Von Kaiser
 
Tauren Druid
 
Detheroc
I run with a Arms warrior, so I'll be running Shred/Rip/SR glyphs now.

I wouldn't be surprised to see FB being worked into the rotations even more than usual now.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Druids

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Druid changes Patch 3.08 Sadirin Druids 329 02/01/09 5:14 AM