Druid Changes Patch 3.1 - Page 24

nightcrowler · 03/01/09, 2:18 AM

My raid buffed stats (bear):

PTR:
HP: 45.4k
Armor: 31.6k
Dodge:44.25%
Shield value: 1707
Shield chance (2s boss swing): 76%

Tank points (assuming a 62k hitting boss): 359k

Live:

HP: 48k
Armor: 37.8k
Dodge:43.9%
Shield value: 0
Shield chance (2s boss swing): 0%

Tank points (assuming a 62k hitting boss): 398k

Basically:
2.6k hp minus
6.1k armor minus
0.4% dodge plus
1707 shield with a 76% uptime plus.

Removing the hp nerf the equilibrium line for the change armor -> shield and a bit of dodge is at 35k / 2 sec speed boss swing. Over that value it's a nerf, below is a buff. Remind that the nerf is not something incredible. Considering also the HP nerf we lose vs VERY HARD HITTING BOSS around 10% tank points but the big part is due to hp nerf.

pre nerf: 73.94% dmg reduction
after nerf: 70.57% dmg reduction

If the boss hits for 60k (that's really a lot, patchwerk hits for 40k^^):

Pre nerf: 15.67k
Post nerf: 17.66k

There is a 2k difference in damage taken. If we now consider that we will have a shield up about 3/4 of times. We are going to see something like: +300, +300, +2000, +300, +300, +300, nothing really crazy. And that's for a really hard hitting boss, Just for a 40-45k hitting boss the difference is marginal. For low and/or slow hitting boss it's a buff.

a civilian · 03/01/09, 3:02 AM

Originally Posted by nightcrowler

If the boss hits for 60k (that's really a lot, patchwerk hits for 40k^^):

Patchwerk hatefuls for 80k on heroic (Hateful Strike).

Bettil · 03/01/09, 4:33 AM

Regarding restoration on the current PTR build, can anyone confirm if glyph of nourish stacks with 4t7 or not?

I've been using regrowth as my go-to heal over nourish due to all synergies it has had, but with Nature's Bounty change, it seems Nourish might trumph it in most situations, I mean, it gains 50% crit relative to regrowth in the current live build.

Im not much of a number-cruncher, but I would be very thankful to see some throughput graphs on the current state of nourish and regrowth on the PTR.

nightcrowler · 03/01/09, 5:13 AM

Originally Posted by a civilian

Patchwerk hatefuls for 80k on heroic (Hateful Strike).

I was talking about normal melee not hatefuls but thank for clarifications.

Norfair · 03/01/09, 5:57 AM

Originally Posted by Bettil

Regarding restoration on the current PTR build, can anyone confirm if glyph of nourish stacks with 4t7 or not?

I've been using regrowth as my go-to heal over nourish due to all synergies it has had, but with Nature's Bounty change, it seems Nourish might trumph it in most situations, I mean, it gains 50% crit relative to regrowth in the current live build.

Im not much of a number-cruncher, but I would be very thankful to see some throughput graphs on the current state of nourish and regrowth on the PTR.

As far as I know the new glyphs aren't implemented yet (at least they weren't last time I checked on friday), so it's impossible to know atm.

erduker · 03/01/09, 6:49 AM

Originally Posted by nightcrowler

pre nerf: 73.94% dmg reduction
after nerf: 70.57% dmg reduction

If the boss hits for 60k (that's really a lot, patchwerk hits for 40k^^):

Pre nerf: 15.67k
Post nerf: 17.66k

There is a 2k difference in damage taken. If we now consider that we will have a shield up about 3/4 of times. We are going to see something like: +300, +300, +2000, +300, +300, +300, nothing really crazy. And that's for a really hard hitting boss, Just for a 40-45k hitting boss the difference is marginal. For low and/or slow hitting boss it's a buff.

I guess I have my math wrong, that would not be the first time

I do see that it would be a buff (in mitigation) if the shield is up and the boss dont hit hard. But I presume that bosses in Ulduar will hit harder then in naxx. With Lacerate being able to crit, maul and normal gcd attacks we will have a very good chance to have the shield up on normal bosses. Even if the difference seams low we have to take HotW change into account to. I agree with Blizzard that our HP was almost out of control and our armor was to high. 15% HotW might been the first step to take. They have a tendency to go over the top when they fix druids in my opinion.

http://hem.bredband.net/vicluk/310bear.xlsx
I do not take dodge or anything into account, only that I get hit once. I do know there are loads of other things that needs to be taken into account in a real raid environment.

nightcrowler · 03/01/09, 8:34 AM

Well. Patchwerk, Sarth and Malygos normal hits for 40k, Patch hatefull for 80k. Hodir seems to hit for 60-65k. Other bosses seen in Naxx and Ulduar (at the moment) hits for less than 35k.

turlockmike · 03/01/09, 1:39 PM

My largest concern with all of the changes is that so many healers, including myself, were dependent on the TBC version of lifebloom and the idea of hot healing in raids, that we have to completely change the way we think about resto druid healing. I did a 25 man Naxx a few days ago and I decided to break my normal lifebloom rolling and instead focus on rejuv, regrowth, and wildgrowth. I used rejuv on anyone with moderate damage, wildgrowth if there was at least 3-4 with moderate damage, and regrowth for the tank or anyone with 25% health. Out of the 5 healers I still placed 2nd, (Paladin was first mostly because of those crits from Holy Light Glyph). So I wouldn't say Resto Druids are bad healers at all, just vastly different than before.

My other concern is that blizzard, in trying to balance the classes, has made them so similar that there is almost no difference. How many of our spells are nearly identical to holy priest spells?

Finally, does anyone have any ideas for exactly how much mana lifebloom will cost in TOL form and exactly how much mana it returns? I've read some differentiating numbers. I want to do a Resto Spreadsheet, but can't until I have those figures. Thanks

david0925 · 03/01/09, 1:48 PM

Originally Posted by turlockmike

My largest concern with all of the changes is that so many healers, including myself, were dependent on the TBC version of lifebloom and the idea of hot healing in raids, that we have to completely change the way we think about resto druid healing. I did a 25 man Naxx a few days ago and I decided to break my normal lifebloom rolling and instead focus on rejuv, regrowth, and wildgrowth. I used rejuv on anyone with moderate damage, wildgrowth if there was at least 3-4 with moderate damage, and regrowth for the tank or anyone with 25% health. Out of the 5 healers I still placed 2nd, (Paladin was first mostly because of those crits from Holy Light Glyph). So I wouldn't say Resto Druids are bad healers at all, just vastly different than before.

My other concern is that blizzard, in trying to balance the classes, has made them so similar that there is almost no difference. How many of our spells are nearly identical to holy priest spells?

Finally, does anyone have any ideas for exactly how much mana lifebloom will cost in TOL form and exactly how much mana it returns? I've read some differentiating numbers. I want to do a Resto Spreadsheet, but can't until I have those figures. Thanks

Even before the introduction of Wild Growth, Druids have had the ability to "raid heal" using Rej, Reg+SM, or lifebloom single stack. It was just never the preferred way of doing things assuming you are able to field all 4 kinds of healers. Shaman and Priests heals for more, using fewer GCD, at maybe slightly worse HPM but much higher HPS and HPG(global).

The changes here will conserve druid mana a bit more in cases that you have to heal raid damage that is moderate, on fewer targets, and is predictable, since it would seem Lifebloom refunds 50% of base cost, and you spend not 100% base cost to cast it in tree form (need to check up on this). So in that sense it's a buff. However the fact still remains that if you're a 25 man raid with specialized healers, the chances of you throwing out random LBs and still expect to get a decent return is not very high.

The bottom line here is that LB is slightly more mana efficient if you cast it in tree form, and gets a lot better return if it is dispelled or expired when having mulitple stack, with a much higher upkeep cost in order to keep them rolling. It's an interesting change, but I would not call that a buff at all. I still expect druids to roll hots on tanks, maybe fewer targets if mana becomes an issue, at least in a 25 man raid setting. In a 10 man setting maybe blooming life will be more useful.

Kalaya · 03/01/09, 4:19 PM

Personally I doubt I'm going to like the Lifebloom change. The flavor change to the bloom effect is only useful in very limited situations, but the rolling effect will get hit hard mana wise. And letting it bloom is usually a waste of mana and gcd's.

I'll use the earlier posted stats:

Pre-Nerf
Base Cost: 489
In ToL: 391
In ToL with (2) T7: 371

Post-Nerf
Base Cost: 978
In ToL: 782
In ToL with (2) T7: 741

That means it costs 2223 mana to build up a 3 stack of lifebloom. If it blooms on a 3 stack, that's 1467 mana returned (assuming it indeed returns half the base mana cost and not takes mana reducing talents / set bonuses into account). That means you're spending 2223 - 1467 = 756 mana on a 3 stack if it indeed works this way. At the same time you could've just refreshed the current stack for 741 mana. So letting it bloom actually costs more mana. And since you need to build up the 3 stack yet again, that means 2 extra gcds needed and a potential loss of hps, unless the bloom happened at a very well timed (or lucky) moment, in which case it could be an hps increase. But in most cases it's easier and probably more effective to just keep the stack rolling, meaning that the effect of this flavor change is simply that lifebloom cost double the mana without gaining much for it back.

Though from a pvp perspective the changes are very good. But since I'm more bothered about PvE, I'll probably not like this change, unless mana regen is still easy enough, in which case this change simply adds more versatility to an already fun spell without having much of an impact. I'll just have to wait and see

Silasthebear · 03/01/09, 6:56 PM

So i have a question the changes on Imp MoTW states. "and increases your total attributes by1%/2%"

is this effect just for the druid or for everyone you cast Imp MoTW on.

What im getting at here is would this be worth picking up for feral dps 2% total attributes plus the SoTF talent 6%.

To pick up Imp MotW you would have to drop points out of imp mangle and infected wounds to get it with a full PVE cat spec. would this be a big enouth dps increase to loose 2 points in IMP mangle and only having 1 point in Infected wounds.

here is my talent calc for ptr
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...0&version=9626

for the rotation with accurate use of TF i dont see having a problem when you have to keep up mangle expecialy with the glyphs not having to use it as much. Plus as an added bonus having a trauma warrior in the raid.

any comments on this? i coudl drop a point out of feral charge but its so nice for positioning and getting back to a boss?

Broseph · 03/01/09, 7:14 PM

The consensus is to drop a point or two from Furor. ESPECIALLY if you are not using a hybrid build.

Silasthebear · 03/01/09, 7:40 PM

hmm furor didnt think of that will suck for when im not raiding and want to pvp but would max out the dps more

Xavias · 03/01/09, 11:02 PM

Lifebloom change is very simple: Its an efficiency buff to raid healing using LB (which is a bad choice to use in the first place, though I am guilty of using it in a few raid-heal situations), and a nerf to Rolling LB's on tanks (causes it to cost exactly 2x more than usual).

Thats pretty much all it does. What does concern me though is that this change could cause LB to be used even more than before (ie taking up more GCD's), which goes against what Blizzard want with Druid healing (diversified heals). This change could force more pigeonholing of LB because instead of casting LB once every few seconds, you will now be casting it 3 times, than casting it 3 times, than casting it 3 times etc etc. I liked that I could roll a 3-stack LB on a tank or two, and have the GCDs to do other things in between.

Insertname · 03/01/09, 11:30 PM

does anyone know what the new value of the LB bloom should be after the new changes? The patch notes seem to imply that the bloom will be multiplied by the number of stacks. Here is the quote: "and the heal effect is multiplied by the number of applications". Wowwiki states that the bloom value should be enhanced by 64.6% of your spell power. Assuming that the wiki is correct (don't know that for a fact, first time I've paid attention to the bloom calculation) then at 1800 SP the bloom should be 1800*.646 + 970 (the basic bloom value) = 2132. Therefore if the blooms are multiplied by the number of stacks, the bloom for a 3 stack would be 6398. However, when I try this on the PTR, I get a bloom of 2905 with three stacks. When I try it with 0 SP/feral talents I get a bloom of 970. So it would appear that the Bloom is currently not multiplied by the number of stacks as the PTR notes seem to suggest. If that is the case and it is intended then even letting it bloom would not be very beneficial. Unfortunately I can't test the current bloom value on live as I just re-specced feral. am I simply not looking at this correctly? this is my first time looking at numbers more closely so apologies if I am off.