Elitist Jerks
Register
Blogs
Forums


Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Druids

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02/06/09, 2:07 AM   #61
Monfalaris
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Gorgonnash (EU)
This was an accidental double posting, but I decided to use this for a small addition. In the end I forgot about the armor bonus we get from agility (around 1500 armor), which is worth even more mitigation when the armor level gets lower, since it is a constant. As a result, if the SotF armor coefficient drops to 10/20/30 we would still be in line with warriors and paladins. This is slightly less than the 40% I mentioned above. Keep in mind that this is only correct when looking at many mobs hitting for 10k. Against a slow and hard hitting boss SD becomes much less effective than armor mitigation.

Last edited by Monfalaris : 02/06/09 at 2:43 AM.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/06/09, 3:10 AM   #62
nightcrowler
Don Flamenco
 
nightcrowler's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Runetotem (EU)
As a note to druids thinking about rage vs shield problem.

Why are you worried? It's obvious that we will get the same rage x damage absorbed as warrior. When they change that they don't change something in warriors or druids formulas, they change something in rage formulas, applyied to both class. Every change from vanilla wow to rage has affected both classes, because when you are a bear,you are a warrior for the game mechanic. As already stated back at the begining of wotlk from a blue (i don't remember the exact post): every change in mechanic affecting warriors have it's counterpart for druids, that's all.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/06/09, 4:09 AM   #63
Cuer
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Earthen Ring
A bit of irony here: will the Savage Defense addition end up promoting the use of Agility for bear gems, even more than it currently is? Agility was nerfed somewhat in 3.0 for feral DPS, and with diminishing returns it will eventually reach less useful levels, for the dodge and armor that it provides. But since it also increases Crit rate, that would seem to push it back further into the "gem everything with this" stat.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/06/09, 4:12 AM   #64
Gidgetto
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Dentarg
Not sure if its been brought up yet... but the feral mitigation change will also negatively affect us during stuff like web wraps/stomps/stuns, we wont be attacking during those so we wont be proccing SD.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/06/09, 4:31 AM   #65
Jezz
Von Kaiser
 
Jezz's Avatar
 
Troll Druid
 
Sunstrider (EU)
Originally Posted by Gidgetto View Post
Not sure if its been brought up yet... but the feral mitigation change will also negatively affect us during stuff like web wraps/stomps/stuns, we wont be attacking during those so we wont be proccing SD.
Yeah, this is what I was thinking. If they truely want it to be like block is, would it not be better for it to be:

"When receiving damage the druid has a chance equal to their crit chance to absorb an amount of damage equal to 25% of their attack power"

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/06/09, 4:42 AM   #66
Rannasha
Piston Honda
 
Tauren Druid
 
Draenor (EU)
Shield-tanks can't block during stuns either, so there's no extra disparity between SD and block in that case.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/06/09, 4:45 AM   #67
Jezz
Von Kaiser
 
Jezz's Avatar
 
Troll Druid
 
Sunstrider (EU)
Originally Posted by Rannasha View Post
Shield-tanks can't block during stuns either, so there's no extra disparity between SD and block in that case.
I know, the point I was making was meant to be seperate from what I was quoting.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/06/09, 4:48 AM   #68
Gidgetto
Glass Joe
 
Gnome Warlock
 
Dentarg
Originally Posted by Rannasha View Post
Shield-tanks can't block during stuns either, so there's no extra disparity between SD and block in that case.
No theres not, but since they're nerfing our armor to make room for SD, it would be a nerf to druids during those things... which is all i was saying.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/06/09, 5:02 AM   #69
Eruantien
Glass Joe
 
Draenei Warlock
 
Aggramar (EU)
I'm a little surprised to see so much worry about Savage Defense/reduced armour in trash tanking. My experience tells me that, with a very few exceptions, trash tanking is largely about keeping threat, situational awareness, avoiding loose mobs, etc, not so much about how much damage you mitigate.

If the change is severe enough that suddenly groups of trash mobs kill you, then obviously it's a mistake, but there's no indication that's what will happen, is there? Your raid will thank you for keeping deadly things away from them, not for saving the team of healers assigned to you a couple of thousand extra mana.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/06/09, 5:04 AM   #70
nightcrowler
Don Flamenco
 
nightcrowler's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Runetotem (EU)
I'll try out some math and comparison:

I'm currently at 32% crit, 50% avoidance, 36.5k armor, 6800 ap raid buffed, with haste+buffs I have an attack speed of 1.85 sec (I'm also hit capped and near expertise hard cap so I'll assume 0 misses)

Now we can easly assume an attack each GCD.

So I'll do 10+8 = 18 attack every 15 seconds or 1 attack every 0.83 seconds.

Now suppose the boss has an attack speed of 1.5 seconds, he will do 10 attack over 15 seconds. So on average I have 2 chance of proccing the shield every boss attack or 4 chance if we consider avoidance.

With a 32% crit, it's about 1-(1-0.32)^4 = 0.75 = 75% chance.

So on average I'll be shielded 3 attacks over 4.

Now with 6700 ap I'll be shielded for 0.25*6800 = 1700.

1700 damage absorbed with a 75% chance it's not bad at all.

For example our warrior MT has a 22% block chance with 1300 block value.

Those value are far below what will gain a druid.

Pro:
we will get a better uptime
we will get a better "block value"
we will get more magica mitigation

Contro:
We need to attack to get it (look at sarth 3d for example)
it will scale with raid buff more than the warriors/paladins so we will get a lesser effect in istances and 10 men.
Going from armor to block will make our damage more spiky.


Now let's look at a 2 target tanking:
Our attack/sec. will be the same but we can crit on both target. But basically we will take 1 attack every 0.75 seconds.
considering 50% avoidance, 1 attack every 1.5 seconds.
We can crit on both target so we have a (1-0.32)^2 = 50% chance to proc a shield for any attack. Considering that we will do on average a little less than 2 attack each attack taken we will have about the same uptime of 75%.

Now let's consider 6 target tanking:

We will do 6 attack each 1.5 seconds and 2 attacks each 1.85 seconds = 68 attacks every 15 seconds. Consider for example a swipe with 6 target we have a 90% chance to crit. Just make it 100% for simplicity. We will have our shield up every 1.5 seconds. But we will recive an attack every 0.25 seconds so we will have a 16% uptime. If we want to consider mauling for extra shiled the chance can go up a little to 20-25% maybe.

All that math (gross math I admit it but I only want to know the "magnitudo" of the problem) is to say:

The effective coolness of the new ability is based only on how much they will nerf our armor.
They will nerf our armor considering average damage taken.
It's true that more mobs will hit for less each than a boss so also with a lesser uptime we will cut of more % of damage for each attack but not for the total damage taken.

Differently from warr/Pala, our shield will lose effectivness becouse it will lose uptime scaling negativelly with the number of boss. So:

Will blizz balance us on boss fight? With what kind of pre-mitigation damage and attack speed?
Will blizz balance us on trashes or multiple add fights?

I'm under the impression that balancing us toward boss fight will make less able to tank adds.
I'm under the impression that balancing us toward adds will make us OP vs. boss fight.
Also I'm worried that we will lose our Hard-Hitting-Bosses primatum.

What is cool about those changes is that now every single stats on our gear has a defensive effect letting us scale more properly.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/06/09, 5:09 AM   #71
nightcrowler
Don Flamenco
 
nightcrowler's Avatar
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Runetotem (EU)
Originally Posted by Jezz View Post
Yeah, this is what I was thinking. If they truely want it to be like block is, would it not be better for it to be:

"When receiving damage the druid has a chance equal to their crit chance to absorb an amount of damage equal to 25% of their attack power"
That solution will scale negatively with avoidance. Because will surerly be based on a 2 roll system. Block+Avoidance is a 1 roll for warriors/pala so if they don't avoid the attack they have a xx fixed chance to block. Increasing avoidance push normal attack off the table.

Instead for druids your solution will be: If you don't dodge you have an xxx chance to put a shield on you. With 0 avoidance your "block" chance will be = crit chance. With 50% avoidance will be halved.

EDIT: Sorry for 2 consecutive post. Merge it if you want, thanks.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/06/09, 6:58 AM   #72
tr33hugger
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Gorgonnash (EU)
So with regard to Savage Defense, what do you think would be the best consumeables come 3.1 ?
I stopped using Flask of Stoneblood a long time ago and mostly use ap flask for more threat, or resistance for S3D. With SD there is another reason do use dps based consumeables. So i think we have do choose between:
[Elixir of Mighty Agility] + [Elixir of Protection]
[Elixir of Mighty Strength] + [Elixir of Protection]
or
[Flask of Endless Rage]
I think i will stay with the latter as long as my HP is not the reason for wipes.

edit : linked an the old version flask.. corrected that.

Last edited by tr33hugger : 02/06/09 at 7:50 AM.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/06/09, 7:36 AM   #73
Monfalaris
Von Kaiser
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Gorgonnash (EU)
Yes. I am pretty sure we will lose our advantage against hard hitting mobs. The slower the boss hits AND the harder it hits SD becomes more and more ineffective and armor mitigation is highly favorised. As it was mentioned before, it is very likely the SotF nerf will bring us in line with other tanks which is already enough to take away our advantage. I have the impression that SD is actually a slight nerf to bring us to where other tanks are already. This also takes away some flavor since it feels a bit artificial, but, well, we do gain a little against casters and in PvP this shield might even be close to overpowered.

I am not sure why you would want to use an old flask, but I would still recommend using agility buffs since it gives you almost everything a bear might want: armor (mitigation), dodge (avoidance), crit (threat, SD procs -> mitigation/magic mitigation). The way I understand SD is more like we still want to stack stats that we used to stack (maybe favorising agility even more), but now all the +str and what not will actually be useful in a way and the hybrid gear will fit a little better in order to fully support the class mechanics, which is important for PvP, where classes just don't have a lot of choices when it comes to gear.

Edit: For situations where we are being stunned and can't get shield procs we actually already take a lot less dmg in case you put points into primal tenacity, which should not be much of a problem. So the lack of shield procs doesn't really matter at all.

Additionally, I would like to see a change to master shapeshifter so that it doesn't increase the bear damage but the ap by a certain percentage. This would make the talent a little more attractive to bears and it supports the hybrid once again by introducing small synergies.

tr33hugger changed the link of the flask, but still, I would probably use the first example.

Last edited by Monfalaris : 02/06/09 at 7:54 AM.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/06/09, 8:18 AM   #74
Bairoth
Glass Joe
 
Tauren Warrior
 
Magtheridon (EU)
An idea regarding Savage Defense and multi-mob tanking: I was wondering if instead of putting a buff (stacking or otherwise) on the druid to reduce damage taken, how about getting a crit on a mob put a debuff on that mob that reduced the damage it did on its next attack?

I can think of two complications with that up front, in that the damage reduction should only be used against the druid that applied the debuff, and a question of whether an avoided attack would still eat the debuff off the mob.

On the plus side it would seem to match the mechanics of block a little more closely, where you mitigate damage against a particular mob based on a roll against that actual mob. The other models I've heard so far can have you crit on a boss, but waste your shield on an add, or vice versa.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Old 02/06/09, 9:25 AM   #75
Zarriane
Glass Joe
 
Night Elf Druid
 
Silver Hand
My biggest concern about Savage Defense is that, on a single mob, it's relatively easy for Blizzard to balance things out so that the nerf to SotF and the addition of SD balance out. It gets a bit more wonky with multiple mobs but isn't impossible to balance out. I'm not keen on it, but it's not terrible. Where I foresee a problem is on fights with periodic insignificant damage. I'll use a PvP example but I'm certain there are many PvE examples of this - a bear versus a hunter. The hunter drops a snake trap. Savage Defense procs and one of the many snakes bites the bear doing an insignificant amount of damage but, in doing so, eliminates the shield. Now, expand that up to a raid boss - boss hits like a truck but there's some form of minor-yet-annoying damage that's inflicted often. That minor-yet-annoying damage has a high chance of negating the SD shield, thereby allowing the massive hit to get through unaffected.

I like that Blizzard is trying something new and thinking outside the box but I don't think these mechanics are quite there. Hopefully they'll be refined before 3.1 hits.

(Edited because I spell stoopid before my morning coffee...)

Last edited by Zarriane : 02/06/09 at 9:37 AM.

Offline
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Elitist Jerks » Class Mechanics » Druids

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Druid changes Patch 3.08 Sadirin Druids 329 02/01/09 5:14 AM