FeralbyNight (Cat & Bear simulation tool) - Page 23

Cryect · 04/24/09, 7:15 PM

Originally Posted by mesh7

This is an interesting note, because Toskk's feral dps site also puts the new ArPen way below Agi. Toskk's site does this regardless of what stats you put in. I know ArPen scales the more you have, but after using ArPen values of 500, 600, etc., Toskk still has Arpen at or alittle less then Agi.

Who's correct Toskk/Rawr or Nightcrowler's method?

The value of ArPen varies with your gear and the numbers in the opening post are for BiS before 3.1. So if you weren't close to BiS they will be quite off.

Example in the newest version of Rawr it shows my ArPen being valued at 1.56, Str at 1.44 and Agi at 1.16 for fully buffed without a mangle bot. With a mangle bot ArPen at 1.53, Str 1.41, and Agi at 1.50. Completely unbuffed though it drops to Agi 0.88, Str 0.84, and ArPen 0.81. Minor things have pretty drastic results on the effects of stats for your gear.

samboy29 · 04/24/09, 10:03 PM

Couple of quick questions, first:

What compiler did you use? When I downloaded the cpp file and tried to compile it with DevC++ it returns a heap of error messages.

Also, what is the var "wep_dmg" because I went through the file and couldn't find any values assigned to it (other than 0). Basically I'm trying to figure out what the difference between aDamage and bDamage is. Yes I did read the comments, just I'm trying to figure out what the numbers behind it all.

double base_paw=54.857+wep_dmg
weapon=base_paw

wep_dmg = ?? (This is where I couldn't find the value assigned to wep_dmg (other than wep_dmg = 0)

paw.bdamage=(1-red)*(weapon)*(1+naturalist_m);

Interesting that the Shred Idol is better than the Rip one, considering the Rip one does ((26 / 2) * 104) damage per Rip (presuming you have 2p t7, shred glyph, rip glyph). I presume it is only better if you have someone applying Mangle or Trauma for you? otherwise I wouldn't have thought you'd be able to get enough (7) Shred's off for it to be viable.

P.S. Does your addon consider if Rake and Mangle is about to wear off? I'm sure I've seen a couple of instances where both wear off within a second of each other, and it is telling me to use Shred when I have just over 40 energy with barely any time left on Mangle and Rake (didn't see the exact time left). Just figure that higher uptime on Mangle and Rake is preferable to Shredding and having downtime.

Great work ^^

BioNiT · 04/25/09, 3:35 AM

Try intergated facemauler with checked "suggest FFF", and then with unchecked.
See the difference on predictions ? ^^

Wickedgirl · 04/25/09, 9:48 AM

Originally Posted by samboy29

P.S. Does your addon consider if Rake and Mangle is about to wear off? I'm sure I've seen a couple of instances where both wear off within a second of each other, and it is telling me to use Shred when I have just over 40 energy with barely any time left on Mangle and Rake (didn't see the exact time left). Just figure that higher uptime on Mangle and Rake is preferable to Shredding and having downtime.

In my experience this only happened if I had a Clearcasting proc, although it will often choose Mangle on Clearcasting too. Also, from what I have seen, Mangle will always have priority over Rake, if they are both down.

My question would be to Nightcrowler: does the addon have an "internal" counter of the number of Shreds you used, in regards to the Glyph of Shred, does it in anyway change the suggestions order and could it be included as a visible option somehow?

Thank you for the upgrades and work on the addon

Murna · 04/25/09, 1:12 PM

Originally Posted by Nioreh

Rawr assumes 100% rip uptime and doesnt use FB in its cycle.

This is just not true!

I've got pretty good pre 3.1 gear. Not completely BiS, but there's not too much missing.

Checked basically every raid buff / debuff including Flask and armorpen food, only missing the draenei hit bonus.

No Mangle Bot!

AP 10.374
Agi 1597
Str 369
Crit 667
Hit 263
Exp 40
Haste 280
ArPen 361 (this is with Grim toll already, which is averaged to 124 ArPen Rating)

I am using Rip Idol.

Melee 26,6%
Mangle 6%
Shred 18%
Rake 14%
Rip 29%
FB 6%
DPS 6.7k

Stat Values:

Agi 1.35
Str 1.2
ArPen 1.15
Crit 1.11

Not only does RAWR rates ArPen much lower than FBN, it also shows that Rip Idol is nearly double as good as Shred idol.

After using FBN Addon, my impression is, that FBN leads to some little mangle downtime and quite a few Rip downtimes in favor of more FB's.

However, this is not really my playstyle. I guess Toskk and RAWR aim for more Rip uptime, which should in return lead to higher value of Agility and Rip Idol.

Deathwing · 04/25/09, 3:38 PM

Murna, try putting the armor pen gem and gear in manually. Or, better yet, select some of the best gear from naxx and ulduar, and then run the optimizer.

Armor pen builds on itself. Rawr and fbn just disagree on the inflection point as to when ArP passes agi.

nightcrowler · 04/25/09, 7:33 PM

@animagi: 3700 dps on dummy with your stats is pretty low, the stats are pretty similar to mine and you should do around 4k on a dummy. For a single 4minute fight you can see a dps range from 3500 to 4500. So your data doesn't mean a lot.

@Mijae: FBN simulator and FBN addon follow exactly the same rules, as for arpen explanation i'm writing something and doing tests, then I'll update the main page as you suggest.

@Murna: Without a mangle-bot rip-idol is better than shred-idol also for me (at least at normal level of ArPen). Do you have the latest version of Rawr?

@Wicked: I don't understand why sp many people are asking for a shred counter, I'm thinking about adding it but it will require some work. Actually the addon simply read rip timer to decide the next spell. When you shred, rip timer = rip timer +2, unless you have shreeded 3 times.
Usually I can get 3 shreds pretty soon, the only things that can change is if you don't FB and the rip timer increase and you think "I could have used FB". But things like that are really unlikely to happen. I must try it.

Murna · 04/26/09, 9:38 AM

@nightcrowler: Of course I am using the latest RAWR version. With Mangle-bot Rip Idol is rated at 181 Points and Shred Idol at 122. Without Manglebot its again 181 for Rip Idol and only 95 for Shred Idol.

@deathwing: Sorry, I don't really understand what you mean by "putting the armor pen gem and gear in manually". I downloaded my char from the armory and just added all raid buffs / debuffs. I also added a gemming template, completely focused on ArPen.

I am using RAWR now for over a year I guess and never had any problems. The DPS it shows for me is always very, very accurate. For example it suggests 4410 DPS completely unbuffed (except my imp MotW) and I manage to do 4300 - 4500 on the target dummy every time...
I used to completely trust RAWR when I choose my gear. But this is the first time I am getting sceptical. RAWR rates ArPen quite low, which is in extreme contrast to FBN.

The Point, where RAWR shows ArPen equal to Agility as best stat, is 750 ! (using Rip Idol). Even then Rip Idol is rated with 181 Points against Shred Idol with 108 Points.

I am just curious about the cause of these differences. Is it because RAWR and FBN use other DPS cycles? If so, everyone of us would have to choose, which of the two theoretical models better match the very own playstyle.

Monfalaris · 04/26/09, 10:46 AM

No, RAWR assumes a maximum bleed uptime, which results in more damage coming from bleeds than it is the case for FBN, where the cycle has gone through quite a number of modifications now in order to achieve the best results for a static combat situation, reducing the overall bleed damage percentage. If this is also the best for 'real world' (still talking about a computer game here) encounters is not yet known, but most probably it is not. In which way it needs to be modified to implement an optimized cycle considering movement, we do not know yet. Be patient, we will be coming closer to finding an answer

EDIT: Until then, if you are really working hard on keeping bleeds up and don't bother with weaving in FBs, then you might want to prefer agility. If you use FbN to do the work for you, you should support this accordingly and rather stack ArP, in case you have seperate cat dps gear. It really comes down to playstyle right now.

@Murna: Sorry, I got something wrong the first time I read your post. The first word should be 'Yes' not 'No'.

Cryect · 04/26/09, 6:09 PM

Originally Posted by Murna

I am using RAWR now for over a year I guess and never had any problems. The DPS it shows for me is always very, very accurate. For example it suggests 4410 DPS completely unbuffed (except my imp MotW) and I manage to do 4300 - 4500 on the target dummy every time...

Quite strange unless your crit chance is 0 since it assumes absolutely 0 wasted combo points (my results were it was normally a couple hundred DPS short due to crits at 4 combo points etc and rip not being possible to keep up 100% as a result like rawr assumes should occur). Also your ArPen is quite low so wouldn't surprise me it rates ArPen less than Agi.

Murna · 04/26/09, 7:15 PM

Originally Posted by Cryect

Also your ArPen is quite low so wouldn't surprise me it rates ArPen less than Agi.

Are you actually reading my post?

I would need 750 ArPen Rating for ArPen to become as good as Agi. This is not really low in my opinion.

I also would be VERY surprised, if RAWR really assumes no CP waste...

Boevis · 04/26/09, 8:49 PM

Rawr shows ArP better than Agi far earlier for me, I can actually get it to cross over at 362 ArP. The thing you're forgetting is that while ArP becomes better as you get more, there's other factors to consider like your Crit, Hit, Expertise, and AP as well as buffs, talents, and glyphs. With that 362 ArP, I'd have 53.8% Crit, 10605 AP, and 2.78% Avoided, and while switching 1 Agi gem for ArP gives me more DPS, switching 2 makes me lose DPS because of the crit/ap loss from agi.

I'm using v2.2.1 for these results.

Pheratia · 04/26/09, 8:56 PM

i have the same results as both murna AND boevis, although to get both results, I have to switch from 2.2.0.9 (low ArP threshold ~350 same as Boevis) and 2.2.1 (same as Murna) I'd like to know what's going on, but if agi really turns out to be better than ArP i will be very glad as that merges cat and bear gear sets alot better.

Nadir_Eonar · 04/26/09, 10:42 PM

Something which I don't see mentioned much in these ArP vs Agi discussions is that the models assume 100% uptime on the boss, i.e a patchwerk type scenario. It's worth bearing in mind that in any situation where you lose melee contact with a boss the rip-favouring (agi) builds will be negatively impacted less severely than the ArP-favouring builds.

To assess the actual extent to which this is a factor someone would need to make calculations of average uptime/downtime on the various boss encounters in ulduar I suppose, which would be both time consuming and highly subjective, dependant as it would be on adopted strategies etc. However I feel it's worth bearing in mind this 'hidden' advantage of agility when deciding on gear to use in a real-world situation.

Cryect · 04/27/09, 2:56 AM

Originally Posted by Murna

Are you actually reading my post?

I would need 750 ArPen Rating for ArPen to become as good as Agi. This is not really low in my opinion.

I also would be VERY surprised, if RAWR really assumes no CP waste...

As well, I've stated that Rawr has shown that ArPen is my best stat with both the rip & shred idols. ArPen won't be very good if your other stats though aren't very good since depends on having already heavy hitting atacks since ArPen is a % damage increasing stat where as stats like Str & Agi are flat DPS boosting stats.

And Rawr doesn't account for CP waste if you look at the code.

Rawr

Just looking at the code used for the combo point generator

float cpPerCPG = (chanceHit + chanceCrit * (1f + stats.BonusCPOnCrit)) / chanceNonAvoided;

Used with the below

CatRotationCalculator rotationCalculator = new CatRotationCalculator(stats, calcOpts.Duration, cpPerCPG,
				maintainMangle, (character.DruidTalents.GlyphOfMangle ? 18f : 12f) + timeToReapplyDebuffs, 
				12f + stats.BonusRipDuration + timeToReapplyDebuffs, 9f + timeToReapplyDebuffs, stats.BonusSavageRoarDuration,
				character.DruidTalents.Berserk > 0 ? (character.DruidTalents.GlyphOfBerserk ? 20f : 15f) : 0f, attackSpeed, 
				character.DruidTalents.OmenOfClarity > 0, character.DruidTalents.GlyphOfShred, chanceAvoided, chanceCrit * stats.BonusCPOnCrit, 
				cpgEnergyCostMultiplier, stats.ClearcastOnBleedChance, meleeDamageAverage, mangleDamageAverage, shredDamageAverage, 
				rakeDamageAverage, ripDamageAverage, biteDamageAverage, mangleEnergyAverage, shredEnergyAverage, 
				rakeEnergyAverage, ripEnergyAverage, biteEnergyAverage, roarEnergyAverage);

Which goes to be used in the file Rawr which you check every place where CPPerCPG is used that there is no factor for taking into account combo point waste.