It's still logical to assume that becoming hit/expertise capped will provide a tighter grouping of DPS results. Going purely for the theoretical max is subject to RNG to an even greater extent, moreso than feral dps is already subject to. Honestly, I'd rather have consistent DPS from one week to the next, but I suppose that's up to personal taste. Also the problem with the modeling that is provided in Nightcrowler's explanation of hit is that it's based on the simulator scenarios. I can't really think of any encounters in ulduar that behave like a target dummy.
Ignis offtank all adds strategy, General Vazex tank and spank no kiting strategy, P2 Thorim can consider almost like a target dummy. If you want more, XT-002, P2 Razorscale and P2 Freya(sometimes she tend to forget to drop AoE bomb) can be consider in target dummy category to a certain extend.
Ignis offtank all adds strategy, General Vazex tank and spank no kiting strategy, P2 Thorim can consider almost like a target dummy. If you want more, XT-002, P2 Razorscale and P2 Freya(sometimes she tend to forget to drop AoE bomb) can be consider in target dummy category to a certain extend.
Ignis: You get slag potted
Vezax: Searing Flames interrupt missed
Thorim: Flash Freezes
XT-002: Gravity/Light Bomb in melee
Ignis: You get slag potted
Vezax: Searing Flames interrupt missed
Thorim: Flash Freezes
XT-002: Gravity/Light Bomb in melee
You're trying a little too hard.
If a searing Flame is missed on vezax its almost a definite wipe, I don't think listing that as how it would differ from a training dummy is a valid reason.
Kindly stop derailing this thread with trivial information. The purpose of this thread is not how to best construe Ulduar encounters into target dummy scenarios. That approach is quite wrong and incongruent with the approach of all other raiding DPS. Nobody assumes that they are able to just stand there and DPS, that's why Patchwerk is unique and a tool for measuring personal DPS.
Also, it's quite easy to recover from a Searing Flame for what it's worth. The issue of mana/cooldown conservation is another story.
Ignis: You get slag potted
Vezax: Searing Flames interrupt missed
Thorim: Flash Freezes
XT-002: Gravity/Light Bomb in melee
Flash Freeze is Hodir.
Vezax and Ignis are pretty trivial for us in terms of mobility and how much attention we can afford to tunnel vision dps, but they do only represent a small number of all Ulduar encounters. I try to get near the hit/exp caps where possible by shuffling gear around, I prefer to be able to concentrate on other things and not have to worry that my special attack has missed and it doesn't register in time to change my next action. I would not gem for hit/exp though.
Unless you're doing it Hard Mode, if done properly, Vezax is very much a training dummy with a DK tank.
The problem with Thorim is that he turns around constantly during the fight, you get dodged and parried. Ignis's flame jets do remove you from range briefly (though still seeing a far higher disparity in DPS between Sim/spreadsheet and actual than 6 auto attacks/min would cause). XT-002 is just a dumb fight for comparing anything unless you're doing it Hard mode and can record only hard mode, because of how the Heart Phase works, it's basically a positive feedback loop in terms of DPS (the more DPS you do, the less time you spend attacking the boss itself, the higher the % of fight time doing double damage) The Heart is also a separate target, you have to refresh debuffs every time you switch from p1 (xt) to p2 (heart) and back. However, proper positioning negates the argument of Bombs mattering to melee at all.
Hi. Since ArPe has capped yesterday, I don´t know what to do. I´ve used Grim toll and Mjolnir Runestone the last week and it was amazing. But what to do now? If I unequip Grim toll now to equip DMC:Greatness I´ll have only sth. like 110 hitrating left . Did someone has an Idea? I think I have to use DMC:Greatness and Grim toll then...and Mjolnir runestone will fill my bank -.-
Here's a question. How would a gearset that was heavy on armor pen but used neither of the armor pen trinkets stack up? You can get to 70% in Ulduar gear or so.
Here's a question. How would a gearset that was heavy on armor pen but used neither of the armor pen trinkets stack up? You can get to 70% in Ulduar gear or so.
Seeing how both of the trinkets are severely overitemized when you average the ARP proc out, you'd basically opt away an item (with near optimized stats for you) at an effective itemlevel several tiers above current.
People seem to be suggesting that it's best to gear for enough armor penetration to achieve the cap with a trinket proc up.
However, let's say you're one rating over the arp cap when your trinket procs. Assuming 1.2ppm that one rating is wasted 10s/50s = 20% of the time with either trinket. Using values from the Ulduar BiS list from the first post:
Armor pen = 0.8 * 2.01 = 1.608
Agility = 1.53
I'm guessing the value is screwed a bit with the way you average out the arp procs, but it's probably more or less negated by having more arp to begin with. If anything, I'd draw the conclusion that you should always gem for arp, and possibly drop the armor penetration trinket altogether when you reach a certain treshold of passive penetration.
How does the recent change to Jewelcrafters' gems (losing their prismatic quality) affect the "best in slot" professions? Will we see some other profession take its place, or is it no big deal?
Also I'd really like to see the BiS gear list on the front page updated with all the recent changes, when you get a chance. I really appreciate your work and follow it closely.
However, let's say you're one rating over the arp cap when your trinket procs. Assuming 1.2ppm that one rating is wasted 10s/50s = 20% of the time with either trinket. Using values from the Ulduar BiS list from the first post:
Armor pen = 0.8 * 2.01 = 1.608
Agility = 1.53
Armor penetration is 1.6 times stronger at 100% armor penetration than at 46%. So the correct way to average the value of armor penetration (assuming 20% trinket uptime) would be
0.8 * 2.01/(0.8 + 0.2*1.6) = 1.44
(A disproportionately large fraction of the value of armor penetration comes from its value while the trinket proc is up, due to armor penetration's increasing returns. This is exactly the portion you lose past the soft cap.)
I'm guessing the value is screwed a bit with the way you average out the arp procs, but it's probably more or less negated by having more arp to begin with. If anything, I'd draw the conclusion that you should always gem for arp, and possibly drop the armor penetration trinket altogether when you reach a certain treshold of passive penetration.
Yes, it is true that going the pure (passive) ArPen route is still the best option. However, the value you need to obtain for it to outweigh the benefits of Runestone + 556 ArPen + Rest in Agility is something around 85 % ArPen, which is not yet reachable in Ulduar for us.
Armor penetration is 1.6 times stronger at 100% armor penetration than at 46%. So the correct way to average the value of armor penetration (assuming 20% trinket uptime) would be
0.8 * 2.01/(0.8 + 0.2*1.6) = 1.44
Ah yes, obviously. Thanks for putting it in numbers.
Short Summary of this post:
I am impressed with your addon, but I think it miscalculates when to use FB, and uses it too often, resulting in a loss of damage.
When I first saw you were creating an addon, I thought it would be pretty cool to test. I have, and am fairly impressed by the results
First, I consider myself a very good feral. I know the rotation, and have theorycrafted (with my own math) certain priorities. I tested my own trials with and without the addon, and found I was getting about 30k more damage with my own rotation than following it in a 3 minute target dummy fight. I did 5, 3 minute trials with no buffs and fff pre-applied (I do not stack ArP). When I did my own rotation, I acted as if the fight would go on longer, and looked at the damage at exactly 3 minutes (not stop attacking and counting dot ticks after). Then, I looked at what your addon could be doing wrong, since I fairly consistently did 30k more damage.
-> Reaction Time. Obviously, I still have to hit buttons, and me not hitting it at exactly the right time as it switched through items could affect it. I got pretty could at predicting its flashing through of abilities though, and my reaction time is fairly good.
-> FB usage. I think this is where the problem lies, as it had me FB much more often that I would, and would leave my other finishers without being reapplied, sometimes suggesting FB when each other finisher had as little as 6 seconds left.
-> Berserk usage. I knew the fight would only last 3 minutes, so didn't use berserk right away because I knew I wouldn't use it more than once. I waited and used it when I was a bit low on combo points, where as the addon used it almost immediately.
If I have time, I will look into why it is suggesting FB usage early.
Short Summary of this post:
I am impressed with your addon, but I think it miscalculates when to use FB, and uses it too often, resulting in a loss of damage.
[.....]
(I do not stack ArP).
I would say this is the issue here. Your cycle will favour rip over FB, and FB favours ArP usage.
I'm a little bit confused by the original post. For instance, consider the 'BiS pre-Ulduar List.' When you compare that list with the 'Gear Ranking' link you get some contradictions. Like WoWHead says Dreamwalkers are higher rated than the Footwraps of Vile Deceit, but Footwraps are listed as BiS. Is this because even though Dreamwalkers by themselves are better, in combination with the rest of the gear the Footwraps become better?
But if that's the case, then why are both Grim Toll and Mjolnir Runestone in the 'BiS Ulduar List' when the thread says it is best to have 1 armor pen trinket?
But if that's the case, then why are both Grim Toll and Mjolnir Runestone in the 'BiS Ulduar List' when the thread says it is best to have 1 armor pen trinket?
Basically you have an over-simplistic view of what BiS means. Whether a given item is Best In Slot for you at any time depends on the other items you have equipped and the state of your stats in general. For example the Dreamwalkers are rated higher because of the hit and expertise on them, but if you are close to hit and expertise capped the Footpads become better, especially considering that being hit and expertise capped is not a priority for feral DPS.
Likewise with the trinkets. Individually they are the two best trinkets in the game, but armor pen is now cappped at 105% or so on a boss, and if both trinkets proc at the same time this will mean that with the arp you are likely to have on your gear you would be at 130% or so arpen, of which 25% or so is wasted. Because of this interaction, it is better to use one of the ArP trinkets (the runestone if you have it, otherwise grim toll) and another non-arp trinket (if you have a second decent trinket from those listed in the earlier post).
It's possible to devise a 'best set' given certain assumptions, which is what Nightcrowler is trying to do in the first post. But individual items are rarely 'always BiS under all conditions', it usually depends on the rest of your setup, and even sometimes factors like what raidbuffs you have and what DPS rotation you favour.
With only one trinket avaiable the results are pretty much what we would expect. There are still things that people wouldn't think about. Blood of the Old God it's better (marginally) than Greatness Agility and Incisor fragment is the best "low level" trinket, also better than Mirror of Truth.
The part I'm interested in is "Incisor fragment is the best "low level" trinket, also better than Mirror of Truth."
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to obtain better than the Mirror if Truth(passed on the runestone before coming to EJ /qq). How much better is the Incisor Fragment than the Mirror?(e.g. is it worth farming until I get better?)
**Guess I should mention Im running ~430 ArP and my 2nd trinket is Greatness agility
I have the Winter's Icy Embrace and the T8.5 chest. I also have the shoulders, is it worth the downgrade in stats to get the 2 piece or should I stick with the 2 piece until I get the helm?
05/20/09, 10:09 PM
. Did someone has an Idea? I think I have to use DMC:Greatness and Grim toll then...and Mjolnir runestone will fill my bank -.-
