@Cryect:

I am not checking the code, but it seems like you know what you're talking about. I am just gonna trust you on this.
Actually, this is quite a big flaw in RAWR math - not taking combo point wastes into account is significant!


I do understand, that ArPen's efficiency is greatly influenced by all the other stats. But for example, I've got nearly the same stats as boevis, look at this:



I checked every raid buff/debuff except Draenei Hit and Trauma.


I am in cat gear and talent build on the armory. Perhaps you could load my char into your RAWR and test it yourself. I'm even a bit scared, that I'm doing something terribly wrong, but I just can't find it...

I get similar values as Murna, it isn't until the extremely high levels of Armour Penetration that it seems to push ahead, around 550 with Shred Idol and 650 with Rip Idol.

On another note I recompiled the BiS list now with the newly discovered items from yesterday. Rawr suggests using both Runestone and Grim Toll but I don't know how the similar procs interact with each other. If it is negatively then the next best trinket is Blood of the Old God.

Slot	Item
Head	Conqueror's Nightsong Headguard
Neck	Pendulum of Infinity
Shoulders	Conqueror's Nightsong Shoulderpads
Chest	Embrace of the Gladiator
Waist	Soul-Devouring Cinch
Legs	Conqueror's Nightsong Legguards
Feet	Flamestalker Boots
Wrist	Fluxing Energy Coils
Hands	Conqueror's Nightsong Handgrips
Finger1	Loop of the Agile
Finger2	Cindershard Ring
Trinket1	Grim Toll
Trinket2	Mjolnir Runestone
Back	Drape of the Faceless General
MainHand	Dark Edge of Depravity + berserking
ExtraWaistSocket	Fractured Scarlet Ruby

For slots I used all APR and JC gems to activate the meta.
For Idol well I guess it is personal choice. Rawr refuses to ever give me a result without Rip idol as number 1, but the difference is small in the above setup, about 20 dps. The final DPS result is 7908. It is a little below hit/exp cap which I'd have to fix with gems as they are too important to be below cap.

Hmmm just seems your stats are a fair bit lower. Setting up the same buffs and idol as you I get a very different looking relative stats for my gear. I do get the exact same low ArPen value using your character (edit as you showed in your picture. The main differences I see is I have extra 200 AP, lot more expertise, lot less haste, slightly more Agi and a lot more ArPen).

Obviously something non-apparent is happening in Rawr. I'd specifically look for things like Rawr changing which cycle is optimal. With the "average stat values" graphic, we may even see a case where adding a certain number of stat points changes the ideal cycle.

I haven't seen ANY specifics about how Rawr's cat cycles are implemented lately, whether in patch notes or on the site. For all I know, they've got multiple different implementations of cycles, and crossing stat barriers makes you jump from one cycle to the other. However, if you're playing with a priority list, calculating a static cycle is wrong-- sometimes you'll be using a 1-point SR just to get it active after an FB, sometimes you'll be using a 5-point SR in the middle of a berserk.

Essentially: either 1) Rawr is broken, or 2) Rawr isn't clear about what's changing between Murna and Cryect (specifically with Cryect, as the rating of his crit doesn't agree with any other current theorycraft). Either way, I wouldn't trust Rawr for more than getting calculator values.

Look at our complex stats.

Avoided Attacks -> You have 2% more chance to hit (Lot more expertise rating, little less Hit rating), this should favor ArPen over Agi.

Crit Chance -> About the same. I've got little more Crit Rating but little less Agi

Attack Speed How come you're attacking faster with less Haste rating? Have you checked bloodlust? (I didn't)


Now, I was wondering why our relative stats tables look so very different. Even when I loaded your char into my RAWR, I've got your result of ArPen being at such incredibly high value.

I got three ideas:

a) Could it be, that the T8 2-Piece Bonus leads to high ArPen Values? Because the clearcast Procs should be used for shred and shred is basically the attack, that benefits more from ArPen, than from Agi.

b) Maybe the value of Agi and ArPen changes, when the percentages of our attacks change? Like - When I do more % of my damage with bleed attacks, then Agi will become better and when more % of my damage comes from shred and melee, ArPen gets better.

c) Maybe at certain Crit Levels RAWR's math calculates more Ferocious Bites. For example, if you have 54,4% Crit RAWR estimates one FB every 4 Cycles and when you get to 54,5%, then suddenly it's one FB every 3 Cycles. More FB -> higher ArPen Value compared to Agility.


These are 3 possible explanations for the differences of the ArPen <-> Agi Values we see.



*edit*: Actually, my third idea, c), is what Allev said. He just expressed it a lot better, than I did with my poor english.

I created last week my than current DPS set in a char planner to get the input values for Toskk to get input real world values to input (Rawr was not available) chardev.org v6 ~ a World of Warcraft character planner

When using cat form values in Toskk's calc and adjusting the ArPen value the crossover comes at 398 ArPen with Rip Idol and 312 with shred idol. In my current real world gear I am at 97 ArPen, when replacing Agi Gems with ArPen Gems I reach 225, which is within the ballpark for swapping to ArPen.
chardev.org v6 ~ a World of Warcraft character planner

The results these values create in Toskk are not so promising:
Agi:AP = 2.4236
Armor Pen. Rating:AP = 2.306

The crossover with shred Idol is with these values at 350 and 436 with Rip Idol.

So my real DPS set is well behind the switch curve. If anybody has a better suggestion to narrow it down I am happy to do it. Rawr is not always available to me so this was the closest solution to see were I am.

Edit: I ran Toskk's with FB every 2nd cycle.

Yeah, I had bloodlust checked didn't realize you didn't (though when I loaded your character it had pretty much the same per stat values as you showed).

It looks like you missed the new Algalon quest rewards. The 25-man version is definitely BiS. The 10-man one is probably also 2nd best, though it's close.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...alon25-man.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...alon10-man.jpg

Edit: I'm seeing new BiS something similar to:

Head	Conqueror's Nightsong Headguard
Neck	Pendulum of Infinity
Shoulders	Conqueror's Nightsong Shoulderpads
Chest	Embrace of the Gladiator
Waist	Soul-Devouring Cinch
Legs	Conqueror's Nightsong Legguards
Feet	Footpads of Silence
Wrist	Mechanist's Bindings
Hands	Conqueror's Nightsong Handgrips
Finger1	Brann's Signet Ring
Finger2	Brann's Sealing Ring
Trinket1	Grim Toll
Trinket2	Mjolnir Runestone
Back	Drape of Icy Intent
MainHand	Dark Edge of Depravity

Weird. I'm seeing

Head	Conqueror's Nightsong Headguard
Neck	Pendulum of Infinity
Shoulders	Conqueror's Nightsong Shoulderpads
Chest	Conqueror's Nightsong Rainments
Waist	Soul-Devouring Cinch
Legs	Legguards of Cunning Deception
Feet	Flamestalker boots
Wrist	Fluxing Energy Coils
Hands	Conqueror's Nightsong Handgrips
Finger1	Brann's Signet Ring
Finger2	Cindershard Ring
Trinket1	Grim Toll
Trinket2	Mjolnir Runestone
Back	Drape of the Faceless General
MainHand	Dark Edge of Depravity

As being better. The cloak, bracers, and legs have large amounts of armor penetration on them. I don't see how you can pass up on those particular pieces.

When I play with it, I'm getting a lot more oomph by taking 2pT7 and 2pT8 over 4pT8, but that may be simply because 4pT8 isn't modeled correctly yet. Still, I'd expect a fair amount of DPS from staying with some of the 'good' T7 (I suspect chest and shoulders) to get that rip uptime.

Hey Lolaan, good to see you're still active. Are you using the newest version of Rawr? It should be using the new armor value also.