kalbear

To be clear, Mongoose and all other PPM mechanics have almost always worked this way. Some supposedly scaled badly with haste, but it was never conclusively proven.

And to be clear, OoC is a PPM mechanic. All PPM means is that the chance for it to proc is equal to the proc chance (1PPM) / (# white attacks in a minute).

On ESD: I was hoping that the ability was bugged in our favor and actually gave 2% reduced damage to all damage (look at the wowhead proc; it's worded precisely the same as BoS or grace). But that's not true. ESD isn't bad, but Austere should be your choice.

 

Phoa

Angrypenguin, I would think that even though you lose 11% total off both trinkets simultaneously procing, the amount of benefit gained from the % from 1 trinket - the second trinket might outweigh the loss of not being able to use the full 2nd trinket's armor pen. What you could do is gem ArP exclusively, I see you are gemmed for mostly Str/Agi, and then swap out one of the trinkets for the Greatness Deck.

 

Xyriana

That's not true, the mecanic for omen of clarity was changed during the WoTlK beta

In the next data push, you will find Omen of Clarity has been changed a bit. The 10 second cooldown has been removed, the procs per minute has been raised from 2 to 3.5, and melee abilities no longer trigger it. Spell interaction with Omen of Clarity remains relatively unchanged, with its hidden chance to trigger off spells reduced by half (and rolling the dice about 2x as often).

What this means is that more auto-attacks landing on the target will increase the benefit from Omen of Clarity. Haste, increased hit chance, and expertise will all make Omen of Clarity better

And

With no cooldown and a 3.5 procs per minute, what this really means is that your melee attacks have a 5.83% (3.5/60) chance of proccing omen of clarity. Capping hit and having expertise makes sure you don't fail to land attacks that might have been hits that proc omen of clarity, and haste means you land more attacks per minute.

PPM isn't a mechanic where its only possible to have it proc 3.5 times a minute, it means it'll do that on average.

If you get to 10% haste and land 66 attacks in a minute instead of 60, you now will have 3.85 procs per minute on average.

 

Boevis

GT+MR = 99% Pen + your 11% gives 10% overcap, but that's fairly irrelivant. I would say that it's not worth low passive ArP to use both trinkets. With an uptime of 20% (10s up/50s icd) you average .2*1+.8*.11 = 28.8% Pen, obviously the value is going to be higher because of more ArP being better per point, but I don't know the exact math so I will just guess it would average closer to 35%.

On the other hand, my standard DPS gear gives me 42% Pen not counting Grim Toll.

 

kalbear

How is anything I stated contradictory to this? GC describes precisely how a PPM mechanic works, and it's exactly like I stated. OoC was changed so that it didn't work on non-white damage attacks but had a higher overall chance.

Again, all PPM is is a way to figure out what the percent chance on any given hit is based on the attack speed of your weapon. That's it. It isn't some locked-in value that says you will get exactly X Procs Per Minute and no more. The only consideration is whether or not the PPM on a given item was haste-locked or not. Some were, some weren't. It depended on the item. That didn't actually change whether or not the mechanic used was PPM.

To be really clear - OoC is a PPM mechanic with a 3.5 PPM that is haste-locked. The only reason that it's always a 5.8% chance is because a cat's melee attack base never changes. It doesn't change that it's still a PPM mechanic This is important to note because berserking, mongoose, and executioner all work in a similar vein, and that's why they're not as competitive for cats as they are for other DPS classes who can pick a slower weapon to use.

 

Mijae

You are contradicting yourself. Yes, abilities with PPM mechanics are implemented as you said here. GC statement agrees with how PPM mechanics are implemented. What you are missing is that OoC no longer follows these rules. In LK beta they announced that OoC would no longer be affected by haste, so the chance per attack = PPM / (base attacks per minute). However, this is not the same formula as above.

Perhaps the definition of a PPM mechanic is in question and people are getting confused on what meaning you are using. The commonly accepted terminology is using current (hasted) weapon speed (as your formula indicates), not base weapon speed. So, if a proc actually uses base weapon speed then it is not following the PPM mechanic formula, but is something else. That something else happens to be the same as a static chance normalized to a PPM given base weapon speed.

Similarly, tests have also shown that specifically Mongoose and Berserking also have static chance proc mechanics now (normalized to a PPM). Perhaps all procs have been changed to this and the definition should change, but I'm sure that will take quite a while to be accepted (if ever).

Feral DruidStats spreadsheet
v3.2.0.0.xls - updated 8/4/2009

 

kalbear

It's really not worth it; the point I was trying to make is that mongoose et al never were on a simple one and only one proc per minute system, where they could only proc once a minute. This is a common misconception that the original poster (and many others) have had.

 

scorch109

At what stat level does Mongoose become better then Berserking

 

roguearthur

I was wondering something about Rawr, It says Agility will increase my dps a lot more, as in gemming for it and really gearing for it. This is with the new version of rawr, I think its because of the armor pen cap of 100%, is it because they are trying to make me only focus on armor pen on grim toll and Mjolnir Runestone.

Like with these 2 weapons its saying Relentless Edge is better, Yeah for the Agility, but really, doesn't the armor pen make up for the missing agility?
Ironsoul
Relentless Edge
Maybe it is because I don't have too much agility as is, and maybe I need more crit. I have 43% crit.

Sorry about my bad grammar! Just so confused, I try not to post unless I'm really confused.

 

Ja7us

Short answer: If rawr says it's better, then it probably is.

Long answer: Looks like you might be undervaluing haste. Relentless edge has significantly more, and that's going to make up the difference. Also keep in mind that for weapons, straight attack power is no worse than strength since predatory strikes will be giving it about the same bonus that kings+talents will for STR.

 

roguearthur

Yeah, Thanks I am under estimating Haste now that you say it, I won't lie all I looked at was the armor pen, I'm too addicted to the stat.. Too bad my guild wont let me take both weapons they would rather it go to the Maintanks offspec

 

nightcrowler

About PPM:

actually PPM is simply an easy way to give a % proc value. OOC is 5.83% chance to proc OR 3.5 PPM, the same hold true for weapon enchants.

What changed is that before Wotlk PPM mechanics was made this way:
suppose that you have 2 PPM.
a weapon speed of 1 second.

2/60 = 1/30 = 3.33% chance to proc.

Now if you have enough haste to reduce weapon speed to 0.8 seconds we can have 2 different mechanic:

a) 2/(60/0.8) = 2.66% chance to proc and still 2 PPM
b) 2/60 = 3.33% chance to proc and now (2/60)*(60/0.8) = 2.5 PPM

All PPM items and spell worked in the first way back in TBC. With Wotlk OOC was changed to match mechanic b (so haste increase OOC proc numbers), the unsolved question is: does berserk and mongoose changed to mechanic b? I've assumed so, but not everyone agrees on that and I've not seen definitive tests yet.

 

mydhrin

Change of subject a little: I was wondering if the lower armored [The Leviathan's Coil] was still best in slot ring.

 

• Caniki

Edit the item in your copy of Rawr to find out. It is for me, and is probably for you as well. The bar is no longer double the length of the other rings rating bar though

 

psuman99

Has anyone done any analysis around the value of armor pen vs. agility if you don't have a warrior doing sunder? Likewise, any analysis around the value of the rip and shred idols without sunder. For those of use that often run in ten man groups, it isn't uncommon to have a group without a warrior. I suspect that agility and the rip idol are better until ~350-400 armor pen without sunder (assuming one armor pen trinket), but I was hoping someone could confirm.

 

Antonetz

Remember that if you don't have a warrior a rogue can apply "sunder armor" (expose armor). And iirc not having the major armor debuff increases armor penetration's relative value but also decreases the shred idols value. Don't have numbers though.

 

Krag

I ran a couple of test on Berserking enchant, but I'm not overly confident in the numbers, especially since the proc rate did seem to go down hill in the second hour and was no where near the accepted 1.2 PPM. The Omen of Clarity number seemed to land around what I expected.





I can only run two hour sets unfortunately as my staff breaks shortly after that. I'll do some more sets and some Mongoose testing tomorrow while working, since I'm as many interested in the math on whether Mongoose ends up being better.

Testing was on a level 70 dummy to avoid misses but it shouldn't impact proc rates as far as I know.

 

Boevis

43% crit is terrible, unless that's unbuffed. And [Ironsoul] is pretty obviously worse than [Relentless Edge], it's only 2453 AP versus 2534 AP on the edge. An 81 AP difference on top of 1.16% more crit (assuming Kings) is going to more than make up for the difference between 84ArP and 62 Haste.

 

a civilian

I also tested mongoose and berserking two weeks ago by autoattacking a level 60 target dummy for a little over two hours each. I didn't check my haste at the time but from the number of attacks it seems to have been 10.8% (before mongoose).

Berserking - 158 procs in 137 minutes or 1.15 ppm.
Mongoose - 171 procs in 152 minutes or 1.13 ppm.

 

Moonpie

Here's an idle thought: Since there is no Arp Stormjewel, if the situation arose where you could chose between a Delicate Stormjewel in every slot or a Fractured Scarlet Ruby, what would be the choice?

 

kalbear

The stormjewel will almost always win. While armor pen is better than agility it's not 25% better.

 

Fuzzywuz

It's my understanding that the shred idol is better once you eclipse 300 static armor pen, and that number was calculated with the assumption that sunder was being used on the target. Therefore, I doubt that 50-100 more armor pen would be enough to make up for a lack of sunder--especially since the rip and shred idols are already so close.


@Antonetz: I've never heard of a rogue applying expose armor, because it's my understanding that it would seriously mess with their rotation. I could be wrong, though.

 

Burasuka

@Nightcrowler I have noticed that during Berserk your addon suggests to spam shred (with others debuffs up) forgetting about FB. Is it ment to be this way?

 

nightcrowler

@Burasuka: Yes is mean't to be so. It will suggest shred untill you have less than (FB energy)/2 + 5 energy. Basically outside berserk FB is good also if you waist 20-30 extra energy. Inside berserk you don't want to lose more than 5 extra energy.

 

Duilliath

You might find the following interesting: The Major Armor debuff

An thenn tehy wuz al ded. Srsly. (Exodus 1)