FeralbyNight (Cat & Bear simulation tool) - Page 32

ithecho84 · 05/12/09, 2:37 PM

Originally Posted by nightcrowler

Aggressive Stats after all the buffs (full stacked raid + Bloodlust used 1 time in a 5 min fight)
_______________________

Cat (crit% vs. a boss (-4.8% added)): 40.2917%
Cat (AP): 7606
Expertise: 23
Hit: 7.65478%
Armor Penetration: 34.1013%
Haste (from equipment): 12.7264%

Boss base Armor (before penetration and debuff): 10643
Boss modified Armor (after penetration and debuff): 7230.04
Boss Damage Reduction (after debuff and penetration): 32.1871%
Weapon Speed Reduction % (Total without Bloodlust): 12%
Missed % (Total): 0.345225%
Dodged %: 0.553826%
Not normalized attacks parried by the boss: 0%
_____________________________________

DPS: 4235 +/- 2.5, (Min-Max variance: 13.2218%, Lower dps sample: 3928.86, Upper dps sample: 4488.79)

**************************************
CAT

White cat: 1061.91, Yellow cat: 3173.01
White: 25.0751%
Mangle: 6.35883%, Avg dmg: 3456.88, #/cycle: 2.23643),
Shred: 25.2978%, Avg dmg: 5886.79, #/cycle: 5.22479),
RIP: 25.7041%, Avg dmg: 33791.8, #/cycle: 0.924814)
Rake: 13.0992%, Avg dmg: 6782.12, #/cycle: 2.34824),
Ferocious Bite: 4.46499%, Avg dmg: 9946.8, #/cycle: 0.545759, Average Energy Usage: 43)
Savage Roar uptime: 99%

Bleed debuff uptime: 92%, Mangle debuff uptime: 93%, Mangle-RIP debuff downtime: 5.2%
Average Cycle Time: 28.7

The target dummy test seems to mach data, so it's probably a "buff" problem, or we don't have all the buff or I've wrongly taken into account some buffs. If someone wants to review buffs stacking into the code will be welcome.

I come close to the target dummy simulation by about 200 dps, though I am in Ulduar gear, but I'm thinking there's something going on with the buffs as well.

charriu · 05/12/09, 2:45 PM

Originally Posted by ithecho84

I believe it's written in C++ so something that will run that will do the job for you.

To run the simulator, you need to compile it first. If you don't know how to do that, search on the net (there's enough info on that stuff, really) or use some more userfriendly tool like Rawr or Toskk's Calculator.

Inviktus · 05/12/09, 3:19 PM

I'm at or slightly above the Target Dummy sim using FBN and FM. Although I am using 2pT8 and some other Ulduar pieces. Maybe just human error on my part.

Allev · 05/12/09, 5:15 PM

Originally Posted by syntax53

Here is my Ignis kill from last week where I hit 6k dps: Wow Web Stats

Looking at this:

- The gear looks approximately equal to
- It's hard to tell exactly how long you were in combat-- it looks like you pulled the boss, while you ran in you applied FF, starting your personal combat, and then another few seconds before you started attacking. Anyways, it looks like 10-15 seconds were clipped off the full 5 minute fight-- does that sound right? (I'm going to use 285 seconds as the length of the fight for estimations).
- You had 30 seconds of downtime on Battle Shout, so we have to assume your damage was a little low from that.
- You got pretty lucky with crits on shred/rip, so if this is a personal high performance, it may have been RNG-related.
- So, first indicator of incorrect sim DPS: autoattacks. Average white damage in the first post is 2200+, while you're grabbing 1861 (530,451/285). The number of attacks also seems low-- .783 attacks per swing. That seems pretty high if you've got a haste buff going on-- on a 300 second fight with WF/Icy Talons/Bloodlust or Heroism, you get .80 or so just from those alone. Can you verify whether you were in melee range and attacking the entire time? Something definitely isn't right here-- you missed the equivalent of 30 swings.

syntax53 · 05/12/09, 6:06 PM

Originally Posted by Allev

Can you verify whether you were in melee range and attacking the entire time? Something definitely isn't right here-- you missed the equivalent of 30 swings.

We do kill the first two golems to relieve a bit of pressure on the healing towards the end. It's possible through the movement at the beginning I missed some swings. 30 sounds like a lot though. And yes, I usually start out throwing FF on the boss while the tank gets a few hits in before I start my rotation.

RareBeast · 05/12/09, 8:07 PM

Another possible reason for the discrepancy between the sim and real life is latency. This is an issue that important to me as I regularly play with 300+ms and sometimes up to 500ms due to playing from Australia. Even in fights like Patch, using FBN I can't seem to approach the numbers I should be getting.

I feel (hope) latency is a big factor as I am fairly confident in my own abilities. Certainly, latency seems to have a much greater effect now than it did in our BC powershifting macro days.

Deathwing · 05/12/09, 11:40 PM

I got ~4100 dps on a few 15m boss dummy trials. Some of my gear(should be on armory) is not BiS pre-ulduar and some of it is from ulduar. Considering I don't have feral aggression, and as you keep adding more and more variables, not to mention more human interaction that can affect those variables, your variance is going to increase. To average out that variance, you need A LOT of time. One boss fight doesn't come anywhere near close enough. I think the sim is working pretty well.

Night: on your bear sim, why heart of iron and sta gemming when you're way over hp soft cap? Why not agi gemming and furnace stone?

nightcrowler · 05/13/09, 1:58 AM

@Allev: 2200 is the average white DPS not damage x hit.

Syntax was far from being fully buffed: Wow Web Stats

- Battle shout was up 4:20 / 5:00 minutes.
- You missed hearth of the crusader or similar effects (3% more crit)
- mangle was up only 4:04/ 5:00
- you missed 10 sec of sunders and 5 sec of FFF
- you missed blood poison/blood frenzy effect (4% more damage)
- you missed windfury? I can't find it on report.
- you missed ret pally haste aura.

Also Syntax was applying mangle so no mangle bot for him and a mangle bot itself value around 300 dps.

@Deathwing: our healers loves stamina. Actually I don't find a single reason for avoidance. Healers don't go oom and you can live more time without heals with stamina. The soft cap is: average TTL without heals for a 1.7 swing time, 70k damage boss. Actually Ignis when he is going to die, or final phase of thorim can hit harder.

a civilian · 05/13/09, 2:28 AM

He had a combat rogue and a mutilate rogue, which should cover blood poisoning and heart of the crusader respectively. (These are applied as side effects of the rogues' poisons, rather than separate debuffs.) The log doesn't show when players gain or lose totem effects, but the enhancement shaman was dropping windfury (link).

nightcrowler · 05/13/09, 3:08 AM

@A civilian, ok sorry for mi noobness I'm not too much skilled at reading wws reports. The numbers of white attacks seems really low considering WF+Ret haste (20% and 3%).

Important code fragment for white damage:

	double base_paw=54.857+wep_dmg; /*Base Paw Damage*/

	double weapon=base_paw; /*Weapon*/


	int speed=(int)(100.0/((1+wf*wf_haste*0.01)*(1+bloodlust_up*bloodlust*bloodlust_haste*0.01)*(1+moonkin*moonkin_haste*0.01)*(1+wpn_enchant.speed*wpn_enchant.up)*(1+haste+trinket1.haste*trinket1.up+trinket2.haste*trinket2.up+wpn_enchant.haste*wpn_enchant.up))); //autoattack speed


...

	agi=(int)((agi+SOE*178+MOW*52)*(1+BOK*0.1+imow_m)*(1+sof_m)); // Blessing of King + Strengh of Earth + Gift of the wild + Survival of the fitness.
	str=(int)((str+SOE*178+MOW*52)*(1+BOK*0.1+imow_m)*(1+sof_m)); // Blessing of King + Strengh of Earth + Gift of the wild + Survival of the fitness.

----
	double base_crit = 0.054+0.05+0.06; // Base crit chance + Leader of the Pack + Sharpened Claws.

....

	int apbase=(120+140+(attack_power+feral_ap*1.2+688*BS)+(agi+2*str))*(1+hotw_m1)*(1+TSA*0.1); /*Attack Power*/

.....

double armor_pen=1.25*(armor_pen_rating/(100*15.3952999));

	double arpen_cap=(((1-FF*0.05)*(1-SA*0.2))*barmor+15232.5)/3;
	if ((((1-FF*0.05)*(1-SA*0.2))*barmor) < arpen_cap){
		arpen_cap=(((1-FF*0.05)*(1-SA*0.2))*barmor);
	}
	double armor=barmor*((1-FF*0.05)*(1-SA*0.2))-(armor_pen+trinket1.armor_pen*trinket1.up+trinket2.armor_pen*trinket2.up+wpn_enchant.armor_pen*wpn_enchant.up)*arpen_cap;
	
	double red=1-(15232.5 / (armor + 15232.5)); /*Boss damage reduction based on boss armor*/


....


	 bmiss=bmiss-Draneo*0.01;
	bcrit-=bcrit_red;
.....

	double wmiss=miss+dodge+parry;
	double wnhit=1-bcrit-wmiss-wglance;
	if(wnhit<=0){
		wnhit=0;
	}

.....


	attack paw, mangle, shred, rake, rip, fb;
	/*paw*/
	paw.energy=0;
	paw.adamage=(1-red)*(ap/14)*(1+naturalist_m);
	paw.bdamage=(1-red)*(weapon)*(1+naturalist_m);
	paw.acritdamage=paw.adamage*2*(1+pistinct_m)*(1+META*0.03);
	paw.bcritdamage=paw.bdamage*2*(1+pistinct_m)*(1+META*0.03);
	paw.miss=wmiss;
	paw.hit=wnhit;
	paw.crit=wcrit;
	paw.glance=wglance;

......

if(((swinger%speed)==0)&&(catbear==1)&&(swinger!=0)){
				att=randnum();
				////cout << "Attack roll: " << att << "\n";
				
				if(att>(1-paw.hit)){
					is_hitted=1;
					if(ooc_rate>randnum()){
						ooc_proc=omen;
						
					}
					dmg=(1+sr*src)*(1+RA*0.03)*(1+BF*0.04)*(paw.adamage+paw.bdamage);
					damage+=dmg;
					wdamage+=dmg;
					//////cout << "\n" <<"Energy: " << en << ", Time: " << (1.0*timer)/100.0 << ", CP: " << cp <<"\n";
					//cout << "Paw (normal): " << dmg <<"\n";
					is_hitted=1;

				}
				else if(att>(paw.glance+paw.miss)){
					is_hitted=1;
					is_critted=1;
					if(ooc_rate>randnum()){
						ooc_proc=omen;
						
					}
					dmg=(1+sr*src)*(1+RA*0.03)*(1+BF*0.04)*((paw.acritdamage)+paw.bcritdamage);
					damage+=dmg;
					wdamage+=dmg;
					//////cout << "\n" <<"Energy: " << en << ", Time: " << (1.0*timer)/100.0 << ", CP: " << cp <<"\n";
					//cout << "Paw (crit): " << dmg <<"\n";
					is_hitted=1;
					is_critted=1;
				}
				
				else if(att>(paw.miss)){
					is_hitted=1;
					dmg=(1+sr*src)*glance_red*(1+RA*0.03)*(1+BF*0.04)*(paw.adamage+paw.bdamage);
					damage+=dmg;
					wdamage+=dmg;
					//////cout << "\n" <<"Energy: " << en << ", Time: " << (1.0*timer)/100.0 << ", CP: " << cp <<"\n";
					//cout << "Paw (glancing): " << dmg <<"\n";
					if(ooc_rate>randnum()){
						ooc_proc=omen;
					}
				}	
				else{
					//////cout << "\n" <<"Energy: " << en << ", Time: " << (1.0*timer)/100.0 << ", CP: " << cp <<"\n";
					//cout << "Paw (miss)" <<"\n";
				}
				
			}

SS_Keera · 05/13/09, 3:10 AM

Nightcrowler, i've got some questions regarding your latest Bear simulation results on this page.

First I try to understand the practical sense of the HP soft cap. I can understand the meaning from the description at the end of your post. In a real raid environment though, would you say its wise to shoot for a total raidbuffed HP as low as 42k when doing Ulduar?
Your best in slot gear has a total of ~49k HP and thats also pretty much in line with my assumptions for a "good" HP value. So I'm a bit lost how to interpret or practically use the HP soft cap number.

The weapon choice in you best in slot gear is also a little bit disturbing for me. From the discussion at this board i was pretty much thinking that common understanding in the community here is that the weapons dropping in Ulduar are no real upgrade from a progression point of view.
With the softcap given at 42k HP i can understand that [Twisted Visage] or [Lotrafen, Spear of the Damned] is an upgrade to [Origin of Nightmares], but from a pure survival point of view in a progress scenario I'm not sure if it makes sense to swap out the Naxxramas Staff for one of the Ulduar weapons. The Naxx25 staff has armor, which helps quite a bit with physical damage after our nerfs, and it also pretty much has the stamina edga over the others, when fighting bosses with magical damage.
However do you think that one could really get into threat problems when gearing to much into the survival and not using the dps weapons or is it just me being lost in the old "Armor > all" paradigm?

The third and last question would be regarding the weapon enchant. Have you tried to model the new Ulduar enchant ([Formula: Enchant Weapon - Blood Draining]) in your simulation or not?

Thanks in advance for taking the time to answer my questions if possible.

nightcrowler · 05/13/09, 3:27 AM

@SS_Keera:
Yes HP soft cap should be probably remade, 42k seems a little low for Ulduar (but enough on most fight), the soft cap as I think about it is a "minimum HP" more than a "maximum HP", actually I'm shooting for 50k buffed for my gear.

As for weapon choice I decided to use a "single mathematical method" for gear chocing. Actually in real game I'm swapping between Origin and Twisted depending on the fight. For istance I usually tank adds in the arena at Thorim and then I tank the boss. I use Twisted for adds and Origin for the Boss. For fights were bosses doesn't hit really really hard and/or trashes Twisted extra agility and extra shield value and time it's better than Origin extra stam/armor also from a survival PoV. In the link posted, only 7.5% of the average item value goes for threat stats so the survivability value is pretty high. It's obvious that you should focus on different stats depending on the fight. For istance extra armor gear is not used so much in my sim/report but there are fights were I'll prefer some extra armor instead of avoidance for example. Tanking (differently from dpsing) is more about changing gear depending on the fight and there is an higher degree of freedom.
As for Blood Draining I can't simulate it without changing a lot of code, actually I've not simulated "healing" so effects like frenzied, blood draining and ImpLoP aren't simulated. Tossing out numbers about them is pretty difficult because healing depends too much from your surranding.

Incontrovertible@mac.com · 05/13/09, 4:32 AM

a couple of questions for you nightcrowler;

What is the gem priority now? from 3.0-3.1 I was gemming Str and Str/Stam for Meta activation. Are we back to Agi or ArP as the definitive stat or is Str still the way to gem and why?

also, how do the engineering glove enchants handle in PvE compared to Crusher? there is both the Hyperspeed Accelerators and Hand-Mounted Pyro Rocket. The new Hand-Mounted Pyro Rocket no-longer triggers the GCD and is a 45 second cooldown; and the Hyperspeed Accelerators are 340 haste for 10 seconds with a 1 minute cooldown.

Thank-you ^_^

SS_Keera · 05/13/09, 4:52 AM

Thanks for the quick response nightcrowler.

@HP cap:
If you really want to have a minimum value mentioned you can leave it at 42k i suppose, because i think for entering Ulduar it is possible to tank with this amount if your healers are not slacking.

I was just under the impression that the wording "cap" suggests that 42k HP is enough for tanking everything in Ulduar and everything above is "wasted", which would be a bit disturbing as even your BiS gear gives nearly 50k. Therefore the question how you interpret this value.
In the end as with all stats for tanking HP is also very much a preference thing than there is a cap that is set in stone.

Regarding weapon choice. I see you point and can agree on this. Of course its quite difficult or basically impossible to have the one and only best tanking gear. As you said this is very much depending on the fight your doing. Of course I'm using several different sets for different bosses myself. Weapons have anyway a special role in this gear sets as they can be swapped throughpout a fight as you mentioned.

For the enchantment its sad. As I'm trying to find some numbers for quite some while to quantify the difference between Mongoose and Blood Draining. Most of the community seems to be still using Mongoose and suggesting it as best enchantment. Although as with the weapons itself in the end I suppose it makes sense to have also different weapons with different enchantments to maximize efficiency.

Anyway thanks for your effort again and keep up the good work with your simulations and FBN addon.

PS:
@Incontrovertible: the first post in this thread contains BiS gear suggestion for Cat as well as dps stat comparison and everything else your looking for. Maybe you should take a look there. For the engineering stuff you could ask Rawr to help you.

Incontrovertible@mac.com · 05/13/09, 7:05 AM

Originally Posted by SS_Keera

PS:
@Incontrovertible: the first post in this thread contains BiS gear suggestion for Cat as well as dps stat comparison and everything else your looking for. Maybe you should take a look there. For the engineering stuff you could ask Rawr to help you.

I *knew* I missed a part of the first post regarding stat weighting, silly catfase, thanks =) And since I run Mac OS X I am unable to use Rawr =/