david0925

it means no idle swapping to get both buffs. Though tbh i haven't even thought of that =\

Maniq is my hero

 

Verdan

My results are the same (I figured 1.92% with current gear), the sky isn't falling. This is, more or less, a paper nerf to shut people up.

 

Inviktus

Mine are about the same as well. The question of the day for me is: Will the % decrease be on the shred base damage or the base %? It makes a huge difference and the notes are vague at best.

 

Anubisck

Hi to all that don`t know what the changes exactly mean .

I`ll try to explain it to you with a few examples.


Mangle(cat)(3.1): Mangle the target for 200% normal damage plus 634.

=>Mangle(cat)(3.2): Mangle the target for 200% normal damage plus 564.26.


EDIT: Not sure if the changes are made to both, Cat and Bear Mangle, or just Cat Mangle. If both then:


Mangle(Bear)(3.1):Mangle the target for 115% normal damage plus 299 .

=> Mangle(Bear)(3.2): Mangle the target for 115% normal damage plus 266,11.



Rake(3.1): Rake the target for [ 1% of AP + 190 ] bleed damage and an additional [ 18% of AP + 1161 ] damage over 9 sec.

=> Rake(3.2): Rake the target for [ 1% of AP + 176.7 ] bleed damage and an additional [ 18% of AP + 1079.73] damage over 9 sec.



Rip(3.1): Finishing move that causes damage over time. Damage increases per combo point and by your attack power:
1 point: [ 6% of AP + 828 ] damage over 12 sec.
2 points: [ 12% of AP + 1422 ] damage over 12 sec.
3 points: [ 18% of AP + 2016 ] damage over 12 sec.
4 points: [ 24% of AP + 2610 ] damage over 12 sec.
5 points: [ 30% of AP + 3204 ] damage over 12 sec.

=>Rip(3.2): Finishing move that causes damage over time. Damage increases per combo point and by your attack power:
1 point: [ 6% of AP + 778.32] damage over 12 sec.
2 points: [ 12% of AP + 1336.68 ] damage over 12 sec.
3 points: [ 18% of AP + 1895.04 ] damage over 12 sec.
4 points: [ 24% of AP + 2453.4] damage over 12 sec.
5 points: [ 30% of AP + 3001.76] damage over 12 sec.




Shred(3.1): Shred the target, causing 225% damage plus 742.5 to the target.

=> Shred(3.2): Shred the target, causing 225% damage plus 668.25 to the target.

_______________________________________________________________________________

Example with Rip. (3.1=>3.2)

Assuming a druid with 10k AP, applying a 5CP Rip. (To make it easier no SR, Mangle or any other damagebonus on Rip)

3.1: [30% of 10000 + 3204] damage over 12 sec.
=[6204] damage over 12 sec

3.2: [30% of 10000 + 3001.76] damage over 12 sec.
=[6001.76] damage over 12 sec.

[3.1-3.2] * 3.3 = AP the druid would need to do the same dmg with rip as in 3.1. (When 3.2 is live)
[6204 - 6001.76] * 3.3 = 667.92 AP


________________________________________________________________________________



Only the base damage because the base % scales with your AP.

 

skibo

srry, for the delay, the #'s I was speaking of was purly raw #'s from running recount, which we all know is way higher then what you truly see on WoW web Stats. the point I was trying to make was the amount of up-time allowed for ferals, in using our strat, not by any means boasting my numbers, cause as many have pointed out, I am a far cry from fully BiS geared . thank you to those who took the time though to look at my stuff, and give me some pointers, I will give the glyph switch a shot next week and see what differences come. NOTE: we did Vessex tonight, and as stated earlier, based off of recount, I was sustained 6.8k, but when I reviewed WoW web stats after, it only got me at 5.6...lol, so you are all definately correct in saying those numbers are way exagerated, (bye the way I blame recount for my initial excitement)... Keep up the good work though guys, you make descent players like me shine in my guild from all the informative topics you discuss in here daily.

 

Baumhüter

# Mangle: Ranks 4 and 5 base points reduced by about 11%. Scaling from attack power unchanged.
# Rake: Ranks 6 and 7 base points on initial and periodic damage reduced by about 7%. Scaling from attack power unchanged.
# Rip: Ranks 8 and 9 base points and points per combo point reduced by about 6%. Scaling from attack power unchanged.
# Savage Defense: The animation for gaining this buff will no longer make the bear stand upright
# Shred: Ranks 8 and 9 base points reduced by about 10%. Scaling from attack power unchanged.
# Swipe (Cat): Percent of weapon damage done reduced from 260% to 250%.

Im happy that i dont changed to agi /gems/enchants, with this nerfs i think a pure AP gem/enchanting is the best

 

Anubisck

@Baumhüter: Are you sure about that? The patch notes say that scaling from attack power will not change.

100AP will increase your damage the same way it does now.

The only thing that might be changing could be the amount of AP you need to make Arp more attractive then AP. And since our yellow damage (except FB) will do less damage, the percentage of our normal attacks will be higher and it still scales better with Arp then AP/Agi.

I hope someone can proof my theory with a few numbers.

 

Vaccine

He means armour penetration, he has just used the wrong abbreviation. (I think).

 

nightcrowler

I've not updated yet the simulator, but a 2% damage decrease seems right and also seems ok to me. I really don't thing this change will change stats or cycle priorities, the only thing you will see is a slight more white damage %, and more use of FB, so actually if anything I suspect that it will increase the relative value of Arpen further. When I'll have time to change the simulator I'll let you know.

 

Chicola

And for that, we should complain of the nerf often and laud. Anybody should think, its a big nerf an shout up :-)

 

HypnosZdC

That's what i thought too
Though I don't think the nerf will go live like this. Once the devs and especially the community
realise it's only a rather small nerf i fear they'll change it.

 

Yaelle

Actually I think this nerf is really only to satisfy the masses. Multiple rows of text, big numbers (like 10% here and there) which result in near to nothing. That should keep the people quiet, while maintaining our efficiency which seems to be on target.

 

Eak

Right, the scaling is left untouched. But don't forget the young ferals in blue lvl78 crafted items. They were to strong and are slightly fixed (even if nobody really cares).

 

chetal

The nerf was perfect imo.

Undergeared ferals should not have been able to do as much damage as they were. A 2% nerf in damage is still going to keep us strong, but I might get beat by rogues now. It really isn't that hard to push 7k damage as a feral if you have the gear. Obviously if you do not have as close to full BiS you shouldn't expect to be doing as much as top tier ferals.

 

Verdan

Not to be snarky, but if I could get Hysteria or TotT when I pop Berserk, I'd be destroying the Rogues in my guild too. As it is, I'm almost exactly 5% behind them in melee friendly fights and 15% behind them on fights that aren't (but if they're on kicking duty I destroy them).

Base damage, from what I've been told.

 

Anubisck

ArP vs Agi in 3.2.

AGI

Example (with randomly picked numbers):

1000AP 50%crit (100% criticalstrike damage)

Skill A (3.1): (10% of AP) + 100 = 200damage. If you would use this skill and hit the boss 100 times you would end up having a total of 30000 damage.

If you gain 100Ap and 5%crit:

Skill A (3.1): (10% of 1100) + 100 = 210damage. Used a 100 times you will end up having a total of 32550damage.


The 100Ap and 5%crit gives you a 8.5% boost.


>3.2<Skill A:The base damage will be nerfed by 10%. (Stats: 1000AP; 50%crit; 100%criticalstrike damage)


Skill A (3.2): (10% of AP) + 90 = 190damage. Used a 100 times, you will end up having a total of 28500damage.

Again you gain 100AP and 5%crit

Skill A(3.2): (10% of 1100) +90 =200damage. Used a 100 times, you will end up having a total of 31000damage.


And this time the the 100 AP and 5% crit gives you a 8,77% boost.


The value of AP/crit will rise a bit in 3.2.


!!!! Please keep in Mind that I picked those numbers to have an easier calculation. The 0,27 improve of ap/crit will likely not be the improve of AP/crit (Agi) for feral druids when 3.2 is live.!!!!!!


ArP

As Malazaar posted earlier:

Rake 97.12 % of the damage in comparison to 3.1.
Shred 97.03 % of the damage in comparison to 3.1.
Rip 96.92 % of the damage in comparison to 3.1.
Mangle 96.82 % of the damage in comparison to 3.1.

FB no changes.
Autohits no changes.


If you are gemmed with Arp, and take a look at WWS or WOM it might look like this:

Shred: 32.8%
White: 31.1%
RIP: 19.1%
Rake: 10.2%
Ferocious Bite: 6.7%

The percentage of Rip, rake and Shred will drop, FB and Autohits will rise as soon as 3.2 goes live.

1. Shred, FB and Whitehits are ArP scaling attacks, two of them are not beeing "fixed". This is a big plus for ArP.

2. Rip is our skill that will suffer most from the change(besides Mangle). Another plus for ArP.


ArP and Agi will both improve as stats, though I still think ArP it is still better to cap and then gem for Agi.

One thing for sure, the days of using Mangle fpr CP may be finally over. Loosing even more dpe against Shred with this nerf.

 

minekomineko

And for fights where we can't shred and are forced to use mangle for combo points (Kologarn), we'll be doing even less dps than we did before. You could argue that it's just one boss so it's not a big deal, but I don't see this being the only boss where you can't get behind the target. There will be more at some point, I'm betting.

 

Anubisck

As far as I know you are able to shred the arms of kologarn. If your Raidleader allows you to do it, then do it.

So far I am aware of 2 Bosses in WotLk where you Mangle for CP, because you are in front of the target. Kologarn and Thaddius(if same polarity as Tank).

We may not top the charts on them, but its OK. 2 of 33 bosses in Wotlk.

When attacking kologarns body use this

#showtooltip
/target leftarm
/use rake
/targetlasttarget

Try to end the body phase with a 5cp rip refresh rake on body and arm, then attack right arm again. This lowers the damage loss a bit if you get lucky clearcasts. Trauma should automaticly be on the target if you have an arms warri, even if he is attacking the body aswell.


You could use the makro on Mimiron Phase 4 to but I doubt that is a big damage improve.

 

syntax53

And phase 3 yogg, depedning on where your guild sets up (mine sets up at the door, grumble).

 

Ayriss

I've been playing around and experimenting with rawr alot lately.

Today i downloaded the version 2.2.7 and my theoretically DPS went up, was expecting that based on the release notes.

However I've wondered about the theoretical DPS the addon shows (my theoretical Rawr cat dps is 8008,707 fully raidbuffed). What i am wondering about is how this theoretical dps calculation works.

The fight i have for best comparison is General Vezax, now I'm fully aware of the attackspeed debuff, yet it seems like there is soo much RNG involved. Sometimes I have 7100dps when Animus spawn, somtimes i have 6000dps when animus spawn. It seems like an awful big difference.

So my real question here is, on a pure dummy fight (though such does not truly exist in ulduar though we can get close to it), how accurate will the theoretical dps be to reality? Does anyone have a feel of this? Calculations doesent take into account that a player has a reaction time (mainly thinking about clearcasts, we do need to think "i need to shred" etc, you know what i mean.

 

machiney

@ayriss

lesser attackspeed equals to fewer ooc procs.
also its a question of luck/skill. it makes a huge difference if you use your all of your ooc procs for shred. i for one cant use all ooc procs for shred. sometimes ooc procs in a global cooldown and you are alrdy pressing a different button.
i guess thats why the theoretical dps will always be higher.

sry for any false information but i guess i am pretty accurate here.

 

syntax53

I think ignis is the closest fight to a dummy. if your ranged stays in melee range so he doesn't move and you don't get potted it's basically patchwerk. Best I've done so far is 6475 dps and that was 3 weeks ago. I've gotten a few upgrades since then. Last week I got potted and the week before I wasn't there.

 

Lolaan

Nightcrawler:

I don't know how hard this would be to implement but this is something I always wanted to do if I built my own simulator (way back in the bc days). Right now, you work under perfect reaction time essentially, correct?

What I think would be good (and probably more accurate towards a "real life" type situation) is to have the simulator make decisions a second ahead of time, and use that decision regardless of what other things actually happen. This happens a LOT in real fights, especially where your concentration is not necessarily on your rotation.

For example, the FBN addon says rake is coming up within a second, you happen to get an omen of clarity proc but 9 times out of 10, you're still hitting that rake, not a shred. Same thing with when you use tiger's fury, often times you'll use 2 abilities in a row, but if an omen proc hits in there, you're not necessarily gonna be using it on a shred.

P.S. What's a good free compiler I can use for this? I still haven't manged to compile it.

 

Eak

First a theoretical dps value has to assume a lot, as Lolaan mentioned reaction time or lag (mostly "0"). Your real dps will be always under your theoretical, except RNG has the same or more positive effect to compensate. RNG itself is the biggest difference to your theoretical dps, because the numbers are way to small in a 5min sample (called your fight).


Secondly, your mentioning the Rawr as tool. Please note that Rawr calculates the theoretical dps by an assumption of average damage, average combo points per time interval, average critical damage, even average attack power and so on. This is why Nightcrowlers simulation shows different results (especially regarding ArPen value). FbN does simulate every single milisecond and calculates real hits, compo points, energy behavior and things like temporary proccs.



Even if a simulation would include lag and player reaction time (and maybe failures), your theoretical dps wouldn't be replicable in one single fight, because you just have a lot RNG effects (crits, proccs, combo points). It just can tell you something about your best gear and stats over a very long term.

As a little example: In my current work on Nightcrowlers algorithm i simulated just autoattack rolls over a 3min fight in rawr. In one fight, the results are varying from 1400 to 1600 dps. A simulation of more than 10.000 fights (a number you will never achieve in wow playing one character) is required, to observe auto-hit dps within a 0,5 dps range. That means i do 10.000 fights twice and the results still aren't precisely the same. (Without complexity like energy, debuffs and combo points).

Edit: I forgot to say that the autoswings hit averaged. Every hit has the same value, RNG is just based on crit, miss, dodge and glancing.



@Loan:
Great idea, i was thinking about this some time. The problem would be to get personal reaction times for different cases (ooc Proc-> shred would last longer than reapplying a debuff running out). Maybe the data could be to recorded in the fbn addon, so the player can easily import it into the simulation tool?

 

◊ Neone

I made a quick XCode project to compile FBN. If you're having trouble compiling, and you're on the Mac, let me know and I can send you my project.