@Nightcrowler - Maybe these items aren't in the list you are looking at but they seem like clear upgrades over what you have in your list at the moment:
Weapon - Lupine Longstaff or Twin's Pact - Same ArP as Archon Glaive but with more AP and haste instead of crit rating which you have stated is worth more per point (23.1 V 21.2)
Ring - Planestalker Signet over Dextrous Brightstone Ring - More ArP when you factor in the gem slot, more AP but slightly less Agi (-6). It also replaces 50 haste with 44 hit rating which gives me a DPS value of 456.52 V 424.96.
I know it will be hard to sim this stuff until all the loot is officially discovered and put into wowhead and what not but so far using RAWR and aiming for the ArP "soft cap" I get the best results with the following gear set:
Head
Runetotem's Headguard of Triumph
Deadly Ametrine
Neck
Charge of the Eredar
Delicate Cardinal Ruby
Shoulders
Runetotem's Shoulderpads of Triumph
Delicate Cardinal Ruby
Chest
Vest of Calamitous Fate
Delicate Cardinal Ruby x 3
Waist
Belt of the Pitiless Killer
Fractured Cardinal Ruby x 3
Legs
Legwraps of the Broken Beast
Fractured Cardinal Ruby x 3
Feet
Icewalker Treads
Delicate Cardinal Ruby
Wrist
Armbands of Dark Determination
Delicate Cardinal Ruby x 2
Hands
Sunreaver Assassin's Gloves
Delicate Cardinal Ruby x 2
Finger1
Ring of Callous Aggression
Finger2
Dexterous Brightstone Ring
Trinket1
Mjolnir Runestone
Trinket2
Death's Choice
Back
Sylvanas' Cunning
Main Hand
Twin's Pact
Delicate Cardinal Ruby x 2
Ranged
Idol of Mutilation
P.S. I actually managed to squeeze out a few more dps points by swapping out Armbands of Dark Determination for Bracers of Swift Death and changing the gems in the Belt of the Pitiless killer to Delicate Cardinal Ruby.
The MMO Champion DB has most of the new items in it, even the heroic versions. Plus, the heroic versions are so similar its not too hard to see where they'll be better unless 2 sets are incredibly close.
I hate to be the one to question you, but what about 2 piece T8?
Also, what is the point where we drop Mjolnirs Runestone/Grim Toll, stop gemming for Agi after 50%, and go all out on ArP? Obviously most of us won't get this gear overnight.
And lastly, Banner of Victory...does it really outweigh the Algalon trinkets, either being Comets Trail or Dark Matter? And to possibly make up for the loss in ArP, switch flasks to using Elixir of Armor Piercing (45 ArP)
So then you would have
180 AP
84 ArP
1008 AP proc (45 second ICD)
vs
240 AP
45 ArP
612 Haste Rating Proc
Using your table that comes out to
DPS value for Comets Trail/Elixir of Armor Peircing: 295.8 (With the proc being worth 1015.92, I'm not sure how you calculate procs into overall DPS value)
DPS value for Banner of Victory/Flask of Endless Rage: 359.6 (With the proc being worth 725.76)
Again, I'm not sure how you calculated DPS procs in, so that would be the difference maker depending on how you do that. Does your values for haste take into effect the extra omen of clarity procs that we may or may not get?
2T8 is only worth around 40 energy per minute. Considering that those pieces would be a whopping 32 item levels below hard mode Coliseum gear, I would have been pretty surprised if it turned out to be worth keeping.
As for the trinkets, I'm guessing they can both be modeled with about a 20% uptime. If so, Banner of Victory's proc would be worth 145.152 dps points and Comet's Trail's would be 203.184 points. Banner of Victory would have a total score of 375.312 and Comet's Trail would be 375.984. So using nightcrowler's item scores Comet's Trail would come out very slightly ahead, but that would almost certainly be offset by the way that armor pen scales with itself, meaning that Banner of Victory increases the value of all the other armor pen on your gear.
Gems are as follows:
4x Deft Ametrine in Head, shoulders, boots, and belt
1x Nightmare Tear in weapon
11x Delicate Cardinal Ruby
5x Fractured Cardinal Ruby
2x Fractured Dragon's Eye
1x Delicate Dragon's Eye
Using the same professions of JC+BS, that was what I was getting for BiS. Could you do a comparison Nightcrowler? All the pieces besides gloves, ring 2, idol, and Mjolnir Runestone are the 258 pieces with the cloak being 272.
2T8 is only worth around 40 energy per minute. Considering that those pieces would be a whopping 32 item levels below hard mode Coliseum gear, I would have been pretty surprised if it turned out to be worth keeping.
As for the trinkets, I'm guessing they can both be modeled with about a 20% uptime. If so, Banner of Victory's proc would be worth 145.152 dps points and Comet's Trail's would be 203.184 points. Banner of Victory would have a total score of 375.312 and Comet's Trail would be 375.984. So using nightcrowler's item scores Comet's Trail would come out very slightly ahead, but that would almost certainly be offset by the way that armor pen scales with itself, meaning that Banner of Victory increases the value of all the other armor pen on your gear.
I came here looking to argue the 40 EPM point, until I did the math. With both DoTs ticking, you get roughly 30 Rip ticks a minute and 20 Rake ticks a minute, for a total of 50. OOC has a 2% procrate...
It never seemed that small to me.
However, on the trinket issue, while ArP does scale with itself, does it take into account the possibility of extra energy in the form of OOC procs?
And my question about the hit rating/expertise deficit still hasn't been addressed. Where is Nightcrowler getting his 7.26% hit and 22 Expertise from? I only added 4.5% and 16 Expertise.
I came here looking to argue the 40 EPM point, until I did the math. With both DoTs ticking, you get roughly 30 Rip ticks a minute and 20 Rake ticks a minute, for a total of 50. OOC has a 2% procrate...
It never seemed that small to me.
However, on the trinket issue, while ArP does scale with itself, does it take into account the possibility of extra energy in the form of OOC procs?
And my question about the hit rating/expertise deficit still hasn't been addressed. Where is Nightcrowler getting his 7.26% hit and 22 Expertise from? I only added 4.5% and 16 Expertise.
It would be a pretty worthless simulator if it didn't take OOC procs into account. I haven't sifted through the code personally, but I think it's a safe assumption to say that it does.
I do wonder about the hit/exp/arpen situation, since none of them match what I get when I made a character with the BiS gear in Rawr.
It would be a pretty worthless simulator if it didn't take OOC procs into account. I haven't sifted through the code personally, but I think it's a safe assumption to say that it does.
I do wonder about the hit/exp/arpen situation, since none of them match what I get when I made a character with the BiS gear in Rawr.
Yeah, I didn't plug them into Rawr, i just manually added them up
The only hit rating on his BiS list is on the boots (76) and belt (68) for a total of 144, or ~4.5% and the only expertise is on the helm (84) or 6 expertise for a total of 16, yet he has it listed at 7.23% and 22. I didn't check ArP, but is there something amiss as well?
My only explanation is he used different items, but attributed them to different names.
Yes the simulator takes OOC into account obviously, as for the BiS gear, It's not something wrote inside rock, I've just tried to put something up to have a "new" stats ranking. Obviously I'll test ramen set with "soft cap", 2T8+2T9 and many other combination, so keep the discussion going, badly as already said I'm out from raiding and full of "family work" till september so I have few time to dedicate to EJ and theorycrafting for the moment. I'll try to do whatever I can.
As for hit/expertise values I've used some hit/exp gem probably I'll try to put a more complete list with gemming and stats.
EDIT:
I wrongly putted a 20 expertise gem instead of a 20 arpen one.
The chest I used is the Knight bane carapace. This should fix the hit/exp divergence pointed out.
Last edited by nightcrowler : 08/16/09 at 5:41 AM.
I hope to have some time to work at the new BiS data for both bear and cat and update the simulator today, In the next few days I'll try to run around the "suggested too early" problem for the addon, I'm pretty sure it's a lag-spike problem so I'll try to normalize it and see if it works.
I'm not sure what you mean with lag-spikes, but I'm having this problem consistently on specific fights, with perfect framerate and no latency at all. Perhaps there is some lag-correction going on in the addon that is totally misbehaving, but lag itself is certainly not the issue.
While playing around with nightcrowler's BiS list in Rawr I found that you can hard cap armor pen with just 2 changes: Collar of Ceaseless Torment in place of Charge of the Demon Lord and Plainstalker Signet in place of Dexterous Brightstone Ring. I then ran the sim with that gear list (and Lupine Longstaff in place of Archon Glaive with Mongoose enchant, since Executioner would be worthless) and got a slightly higher dps outcome:
Cat (crit% vs. a boss (-4.8% added)): 57.3443%
Expertise: 20
Hit: 6.09942%
Armor Penetration: 100.112%
Haste (from equipment): 14.0348%
+weapon damage: 0
Boss base Armor (before penetration and debuff): 10643
Boss modified Armor (after penetration and debuff): 314.953
Boss Damage Reduction (after debuff and penetration): 2.02576%
Weapon Speed Reduction % (Total without Bloodlust): 29%
Missed % (Total): 0.900577%
Dodged %: 1.37725%
Not normalized attacks parried by the boss: 0%
It's 50 seconds because while it's an actual 45 second cooldown, it has a 25% proc rate - meaning that on average it'll be closer to proccing every 50 seconds.
I then ran the sim with that gear list (and Lupine Longstaff in place of Archon Glaive with Mongoose enchant, since Executioner would be worthless) and got a slightly higher dps outcome:
That sounds amazing and all, but why Mongoose over Berserking? I assume that is also using Blacksmithing, as well?
Yes, I used BS/JC as professions since they are the strongest combo. I went with Mongoose because it's very close to Berserking in the worst case, and it scales better with gear thanks to the 2% haste. As time allows I'll do tests on Berserking as well.
Change log. v.3.243
-Added (checked by default) a lag correction check under the main fbn option window. In olders version is already present but you can't uncheck it. If you are having problem with rake/mangle/TF being suggested too early try to uncheck it.
-Added 2T9 set bonuses, Idol of Mutilation and new trinkets.
For some time now I have used the wowhead link with Night's stat weights not only for a gear ranking, but also to estimate the pure dps value of an item to evaluate how much dkp I am willing to spend on it. As noted in the original post:
If you click on a number in the "score" column you will see an integer value, that value is exactly the dps value of that piece of gear
I have applied the weights to weapons by clicking the "weapons" choice from the drop down menu. I referred to the weighting/ranking when discussing the new Coliseum weapons, and one of the hunters in my guild thinks the dps value of the weapons is vastly overrated.
Do you have any insight into how the "dps value" of the weapons is calculated? Is that an intrinsic wowhead function or a formula you entered?
I'm also torn now. It seems that stacking ArP beyond the softcap is the way to go in the future, but at first it will cause a dps loss (as Nightcrowler stipulated in the first post of this thread. Is it worth it to start stacking passive ArP now, so later on you don't get a major overhaul regemming for instance?
Í'm currently not in possession of a Mjolnirs Runestone, but do have Grim toll. I'm wondering at what point do I swap out the Grim Toll, relocate hitrate to other slots ([Seed of Budding Carnage]and [Fluxing Energy Coils]are my best options), and equip Banner of Victory. Or should I swap DMC:G out for the Banner?
Here is the 2 sets I'm contemplating between at THIS point in time.
Conquerors Nightsong Headguard
Favor of the Dragon Queen
Conquerors Nightsong Shoulderpads
Drape of Icey Intent (Nightmare Tear)
Winter's Icy Embrace
Mechanist Bindings
Conquerors Nightsong Handgrips
Relic Hunters Cord
Conquerors Nightsong Legguards
Flamestalker Boots
Band of Draconic Guile
Cindershard Ring
Grim Toll
Darkmoon Card: Greatness.
Twisted Visage
Idol of Mutilation
Other options for slots: Wrathstone, Runed Ironhide boots (trades 2%crit for ArP + Expertise)
Im leaning towards Set 2, as Set 1 has lesser stats imo and relies more on the Grim Toll Proc. It allows me to stop focussing on Mjolnirs, can gem ArP straight away to upgrades etc. However the thing in the back of my mind is when I get a weapon that doesn't have as much hitrate? Am I back to using Grim Toll and binding myself to a softcap or should I get the new Triumph badge Trinket instead of DMC:G then?
Professions: JC/Alch
Some feedback would be welcome!
Really, if you start going for armor pen now it will be mostly fine. It won't be optimal. But even after the soft cap from Runestone/Grim, armor pen is valuable and the second-highest valued stat you can get. If you're that worried about regemming everything, I'd recommend simply gemming for armor pen and going with that.
The alternate is to stick with Mjolnir and go for agility and stay that way; that appears to be fairly strong as well.
In either case, an informed decision will pay off greater than being wish-washy. Pick a way and go with it.
@cwbelsomjr:
the weapon dps or every other pieces one you can see on wowhead clicking on the score tab is the dps calculated using the dps-stat weight. DPS stat weight is computed (for each tier) in the following way:
- I try to find out BiS gear
- I simulate the expected dps with that gear (for istance with full Colosseum is around 10k)
- I then subtract 150 of one stat and find out the new dps value.
- DPS ranking = ( old dps - new dps ) / (stat difference)
So that value is the dps gain when you are near BiS gear. Obviously if you are far from it the dps gain for each piece of gear is less than that because the stats interaction make each stat better when everything improve (you can just look at BiS Ulduar and BiS Naxx gear to see how stat-dps-value change with gear)
Given what I said, yes the dps value of weapon is true (just try to unequip a weapon for a fight and you'll easy see a 2-2.5k dps loss), for a feral druid the weapon is far far more important than for an hunter.
Really, if you start going for armor pen now it will be mostly fine. It won't be optimal. But even after the soft cap from Runestone/Grim, armor pen is valuable and the second-highest valued stat you can get. If you're that worried about regemming everything, I'd recommend simply gemming for armor pen and going with that.
The alternate is to stick with Mjolnir and go for agility and stay that way; that appears to be fairly strong as well.
In either case, an informed decision will pay off greater than being wish-washy. Pick a way and go with it.
I think I gave the wrong impression on why Im torn. I'm not so much worried about regemming (being alch and JC) as I am for balancing both hitrate AND ArP due to Grim Toll and Twisted Visage. It might also make my upgrade path more clear if I immediately start going for passive ArP.
I thought I would bring this up as I think a lot of cats are currently contemplating on where to go ArP wise, and it looks to me there is no definitive answer yet. My situation could be different tomorrow if I can get my hands on Lotrafen, or Dreambinder in the near future, as my hitrate would take such a hit that Grim Toll is not useless outside of it's proc (it's currently making me equip overall weaker items)
I think I will just ignore softcap for now, and balance around hitrate rather then hitrate AND ArP.
08/15/09, 1:27 PM
