Hatesfury

What will the new "stat to stack" for cat be?

With the news of the likely nerf to arpen, i wanted to try to figure out what our new best stat to stack would be. I am not a mathmatical genuis, so i'm doing my best to get relatively accurate napkin math. I used nightcrowlers stat value table from 8\15 on the first page and came up with these values when wearing Collesseum BiS gear.

stat	dps
1arp	0.07154
1hit	0.07190
1exp	0.07919
1str	0.07142
1haste	0.07186
1crit	0.07156
1agi	0.07159
1 ap	0.07200

arp post 3.2.2 ~ (2.74 /((38.3 \ 12.31623993 )*13.99572719) ~ 0.06295 making arp our worst stat in terms of DPS (at\near BiS gearing). I lack the mathmatical savvy to truely determine how this would scale with gear at less than BiS, but was able to again do some VERY simple math using data from Rawr.

Base Values Used

Attack Power:	10353
Agility:	1958
Strength:	476
Crit Rating:	555
Hit Rating:	224
Expertise Rating:	42
Haste Rating:	286
Armor Penetration Rating:	340

222 stat point were shifted to guage DPS (shifting between agi and arpen gems).
((1958agi + 222) * 0.07159) + (340 * 0.06295) = 177.4692 dps and 2.88% increased crit
((340arp + 222) * 0.06295) + (1958 * 0.07159) = 175.5511 dps
2.88% crit * 45.91 = 132.2353 Crit rating 132.2353 * 0.07156 = 9.4627 dps
Final outcome: Gemming Agi = +11.5655 dps
This is with much lower than BiS gear (my gear\stats), and a DPS gain is clearly evident. Factor in the increased crit allowing for more CP generation, a smoother rotation, and (in theory) more bites, and agi should come out a clear winner.

I wanted to compare this further. So i'm re-doing the math using Nightcrowlers BiS list.

Base stats for BiS Gear:

Attack Power:	12941
Agility:	2477
Strength:	398
Crit Rating:	680
Hit Rating:	156
Expertise Rating:	74
Haste Rating:	353
Armor Penetration Rating:	688

422 point are being shifted via gems.
((2477agi + 422) * 0.07159) + (688 * 0.06295) = 250.849 dps and 5.4% increased crit
((688arp + 422) * 0.06295) + (2477 * 0.07159) = 247.2029 dps
2.88% crit * 45.91 = 247.914 Crit rating 247.914 * 0.07156 = 17.7407 dps
Final outcome: Gemming Agi = +21.3868 dps


If anyone can post simulations with the value of crit post 3.2.2 i'd be curious to see if they line up with this. Also, if you see any holes in my napkin math please post or PM me and i'll correct them.

 

fr0d0b0ls0n

@hastefury can you explain me this formula (2.74 /(38.3 * 1.15)) ~ 0.06220?

For what I now, what changes is that the previous buff was 1.25, and now is only 1.1, so Arp value decreases by 0.88.

From 8/15 Nightcrowler values, ArP is 2.74 dps, so now it will be ~2.41, still higher than Agility, at ~1.84 dps (rough calculations are we are now far away from the ArP cap, and ArP and Agility will give us less dps).

@triman, a set w/o 10-man is not that hard to do, and not that bad. Maybe with the nerf to ArP it could even be pretty near BiS. For example something like this if you have Mjolnir:

Stormrage's Headguard of Triumph (Heroic)
Charge of the Demon Lord (Heroic)
Stormrage's Shoulderpads of Triumph (Heroic)
Sylvana's Cunning
Cuirass of Calamitous Fate / Stormrage's Raiments of Triumph (Heroic)
Armbands of Dark Determination
Stormrage's Handgrips of Triumph (Heroic)
Soul-Devouring Cinch
Leggings of the Broken Beast (Heroic) / Stormrage's Legguards of Triumph (Heroic)
Icewalker Treads (Heroic)
Dexterous Brightstone Ring
Band of Callous Aggression (Heroic)
Death's Choice (Heroic)
Mjolnir Runestone
Lupine Longstaff (Heroic)
Idol of Mutilation

 

Tunz0r

I managed to get 1051 passive ArP (1091 with food) so I've dumped my grim toll. Its definitely a huge DPS increase. I've dumped all my t8 as well, using 2part t9 and random pieces. I bought Head and Shoulders. Gear is still pretty far from optimal but the calculations on getting 1050 passive ArP and then see a DPS gain seem accurate to me.

The only thing that annoys me about BiS ToC gear is the missing hit and expertise.

Yeah, I was pvp'ing last night (which sucked) so dont judge my current spec/gear until armory gets it updated to PvE stuff.

 

Furial

I've spent hours with combinations on Rawr with both trying and hitting the ArP hard cap with all the loot lists given lately and also with Mjolnir's and i manage to achieve a higher DPS value with mjolnir and 567 passive ArP. That value being 10689.83 DPS.

My question is: Is Rawr not to be trusted, is Mjolnir indeed better if Rawr gives me a higher number or i just did some critical mistake somewhere?


EDIT: Wrote hit cap instead of ArP cap

 

Rawf

It's times like this where I really love the Draenei hit aura. It makes gearing so much simpler.

Is this ArP nerfed confirmed in any way? It seems more like a mistake then anything else.
World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> ARP
That topic is about the apparent ArP nerf and there's only one blue post in it saying "Are you using a newly copied character from live? Have you tried unlearning talents or dying on the PTR?". There's also still no mention of an ArP nerf on the patch notes.

@Furial, Rawr makes a few assumptions about the feral DPS priority list that are different to what is advised here. Different priority lists would lead to very different stat weights and very different resulting DPS numbers.
Personally I only use Rawr to figure out what my stats that don't scale with buffs (ArP, hit, expertise) will be with specific gear-sets.

p.s. Tun, I'm in love with your gear. Gratz on H TV and GL with H Anub.

 

Defyn

I personally am not a huge fan of Mjolnir, the ArP proc is amazing but at the same time, it is a proc. It's annoying to have to time cooldowns with it, and given all the movement in H ToC25 a proc at a bad time wouldn't do you any good. This is true for any proc trinket obviously, but ArP is our best stat and it really shows during the Runestone proc.

My issue is, while having enough gear to gem for passive ArP, I don't have a trinket to replace the runestone with. We were lucky enough to have heroic Death's Choice drop (which is a godsend compared to Greatness), but the second slot would have to be Comet's Trail or Banner.

On another issue, assuming you could reach or get close to passive ArP without the help of Banner, would the 2 trinkets for BiS be the normal and heroic versions of Death's Choice? There have been reports from people saying you can actually equip both versions of the trinket, and that the buffs do stack. It would seem like DC is far superior to any other option for us if that were the case.

 

triman

The problem is really that set lynchpins around 2 10man items - the runestone and the the belt. Without those you have grimtoll (+hit) and a +hit belt putting you way over the cap. Or you gear for passive ArP in which case you are missing a few key 10man ToC pieces.

Its just annoying that 10man stuff is easy to do but I don't have more raid time during the week to do it. Its also significantly lower ilvl and yet necessary to create a set that isn't massively unbalanced.

 

Hatesfury

Thanks for bringing my attention back to this equation frod. It was wrong. I've correct it now, and re-ran my numbers.

arp post 3.2.2 ~ (2.74 /((38.3 \ 12.31623993 )*13.99572719) ~ 0.06295
This equation is current ammount of arp \ current conversion, times new conversion. so it will take ~43.5 post 3.2.2 to equal 38.3. So 2.74dps\43.5arp= .06298dps\arp.

Also, nightcrowlers chart isn't apples to apples. Comparing 38.3 arp to 25.7 agi isn't a fair comparison, so i've reduced these down to dps per single stat point, and agi comes out ahead. Again none of this factors in any scaling, and i won't be happy till some sims are ran to either confirm or dispute my simple math.

 

Swickie

Hey been a lurker of these feral threads for a long while.. and Thank you for FbN, its a great utility. In the current raidin guild i dont forsee us downing tribute runs in a good while if you know what i mean haha.

So my question is.. Without the extra boost of "Heroic" versions.. is the pure ArP Worth going for still with Death's Choice and Banner? Sorry if this is obvious, I just wanna make sure I am on the right path. Thanks.

 

Tunz0r

@Swickie

Yes ArP stacking is still worth it with 245 items. As long as you can get above 1050 passive ArP its gain over the Mjolnir/Softcap combo. Like tonight in Ulduar I did 9.6k dps on XT hardmode and 8.5k dps on Algalon. Thats qutie a bit more than I did before I tried this ArP stacking at least.

 

Hieimoon

This could of been stated before (if so can some one give me a link to it), but are the 2T8 set bonus not worth keeping in iLvL 245 gear. I was planning on going with 2T9 and 2T8 but all the listing I've looked have not mentioned this combo. I thought about the whole ArPen stacking, but, as said before, the lack or exp. makes me look away from this a little bit.
Basically I guess I'm asking do you think that this stacking ArPen is the new, or correct, way to gear feral druids or is this just something that looks good on paper and is still being tested heavily?

 

lairpie

Unless something like the PTR arpen nerf (that no one seems sure if its a bug or what) goes through, 2t9+lots of arpen other pieces is by far the best way to go. On paper its vastly better and actual results have completely supported the theorycraft.

Brewmaster of WBC

 

Supahflii

[http://blue.mmo-champion.com/28/1971...f-in-322.html]

Nerf will be live

Edit: Seems like Arp will still be our best stat, though the switch from Agi->Arp would be a lot later on in the gearing up stage.

 

Lolaan

According to Blizzard the armor pen nerf is intentional.

From Toskk's JavaScript program in my current gear editing just the amount of armor pen:

Using current armor pen values, having a ruenstone equipped, I need 224 armor pen to start gemming for armor pen.
Using the nerfed armor pen values, having a runestone equipped, I need 696 armor pen to start gemming for armor pen. (note that the cap with a runestone if I've done my editing right is now 734)

With no armor pen trinket equipped, I need 875 armor pen to start gemming for armor pen.

And of course the one everyones probably most interested in (though few will ever get to ), when to actually drop the runestone:

1060 (Wasn't quite sure of the method used to do this, I just kept subtracting agi and adding armor pen until the dps matched the softcapped w/ runestone; doesn't actually take into account that you're getting a different trinket proc out of it, so don't take this value too strongly).

So assuming my numbers are accurate, we have a much higher number required to start gemming for armor pen, in fact the number is so high its almost at the soft cap as it is.

I'm interested to see what kind of numbers FBN puts out.

 

david0925

The first thing that came to my mind is that whether or not double ArP proc trinkets will be worthwhile after this change. Currently, using two ArP trinket will pretty much take you to the cap that it nullifies arp from gear and gem. With this change, it will be harder to reach that point.

There is obviously the Ilvl gap between existing trinkets (Grim Toll) and BiS (the new "DMC" from heroic Twins), but it was something I wanted to bring up if the current TC-er and simulators want to play around with

Maniq is my hero

 

Calleriel

Deleted

 

david0925

This is really the reason that they're removing ArP next expansion. Unless they have dynamic rating requirement (diminshing returns?) for ArP, it will scale much better than any other stat. This causes problem because
1.If it reaches the point too easy, then everyone will stack it (now)
2.If it never reaches the break-through point, noone will want it.

Now, it isn't a huge problem if there is a stat nobody ever wants to gem for, as that is the case with every class (as everyone has a best stat)

However, there is a huge issue when that best stat becomes -better- with each point you invest in it. Every other stat "loses" value when you stack more of it, compared to others.

ArP also behaves this way for pretty much every physical damage class, so it's reasonable to axe this.

Maniq is my hero

 

Tressel

I've seen a lot of numbers thrown around with how much of a nerf this is, are there any confirmed numbers?

 

Hinalover

According to Whitetooth; creator of the mod Rating Buster, he has some hard numbers from the PTR.

Combat Ratings at level 80

 

Tressel

Ok then so I'm seeing that roughly 1400arp is the new hard cap? It's obviously a nerf but it isn't as hateful as I thought it was going to be.

 

Hatesfury

@lolaan
Considering Nightcrowlers BiS list is only at ~700 arp Reaching the 875 passive arp from gear only that you found to be the arp switching point almost puts the nail in the coffin considering night was shooting for the 3.2.0 hardcap and still didn't reach that number. I'm curious to see if soft capping with a trinket, then gemming agi will stay ahead of straight agi, or if the crit boost will win out.

@Tressel
It was confirmed by ghostcrawler. Current arp is rated at 125%, which will be dropped to 110%, resulting in an overall loss in value of 12% (IE take your current arp %, multiple by .88, and you'll have your post nerf arp%).

For the new hardcap, 100% penetration * 13.99 = 1400 arp to be hard capped. Soft caps of 735 (MjR) and 788 (GT) respectively.

 

Taiowaa

well hi folks!

i´ve been following these forums now for a long while. my question regarding the arpen nerf ist what is now the cap to switch any arpen-proc-trinket out.

i would say it must be something around 1200 but i dont have any math to calulate it with the scaling of arpen due to the fact the less armor the target has the more you get out of additional arpen.

the other question now is whether its still worth trying to get to this point or will softcap + procc trinket + rest agi sockets the way to go?

 

Pheratia

It tracks other people's equal debuff, so could be a war shouting or in the case of the longer time, a warlock casting weakness (should get them to stop, they could be doing damage instead)

 

Yogibear

Very nice points, unfortunately I'm not the best at understanding the exact numbers(didnt quite understand what the armor pen nerf meant) but that really helped what ya posted above ^^^

So if I'm soft-capping@566+mjolnirs right now ya think it would be best after the nerf to still go for the soft-cap then gem agi?(which is what I'm doing right now)

**And regarding our rotation, I'm afraid that if I drop my 4 pc t8.5 I wont be able to get in nearly as many FBs while still maintaining good rip/sr uptime, anyone who's already dropped their 4 piece and/or is hard stacking armor pen mind posting a parse so I can take a look at your numbers, etc.

 

googol

It also tracks Vindication now, which is "imp demo shout" quality (5/5). If Vindication is rolling, you will keep seeing it refresh at 10s.