As someone wrote, too many Rawr sims were already made and what we need now is someone to test out with FBN. That may be true but since half this page was regarding Banner of Victory i took the liberty to compare the best sim i've came across with the best hardcap ArP set available to clear things out.

Every buff will be used including Mangle/Trauma. (Heroic Presence excluded)

4xT9 + ilvl258 Offset Gear

Slot	Item
Head	[Runetotem's Headguard of Triumph] w/ 50 AP+20 Crit
Neck	[Charge of the Eredar]
Shoulders	[Runetotem's Shoulderpads of Triumph] w/ 40 AP+15 Crit
Chest	[Runetotem's Raiments of Triumph] w/ +10 Stats
Waist	[Belt of the Pitiless Killer]
Legs	[Runetotem's Legguards of Triumph] w/ 75 AP+22 Crit
Feet	[Icewalker Treads] w/ 16 Agi
Wrist	[Armbands of Dark Determination] w/ 50 AP
Hands	[Sunreaver Assassin's Gloves] w/ 20 Agi
Finger1	[Band of Callous Aggression]
Finger2	[Dexterous Brightstone Ring]
Trinket1	[Death's Choice]
Trinket2	[Death's Choice] (I made sure Rawr would count both procs)
Back	[Sylvanas' Cunning] w/ 22 Agi
MainHand	[Twin's Pact] w/ Berserking
Idol	[Idol of Mutilation]

Gemming: Every slot gemmed with ArP and a Nightmare's Tear on the headpiece for the 8 Agi bonus.

Attack Power: 13659
Agility: 2737
Strength: 407
Crit Rating: 662
Hit Rating: 279
Expertise Rating: 86
Haste Rating: 521
Armor Penetration Rating: 900
DPS: 10639.43

---------------------------------------------

2xT9 + best ArP offset Gear

Slot	Item
Head	[Runetotem's Headguard of Triumph] w/ 50 AP+20 Crit
Neck	[Collar of Unending Torment]
Shoulders	[Runetotem's Shoulderpads of Triumph] w/ 40 AP+15 Crit
Chest	[Vest of Shifting Shadows]* w/ +10 Stats
Waist	[Belt of the Pitiless Killer]
Legs	[Legguards of Cunning Deception] w/ 75 AP+22 Crit
Feet	[Icewalker Treads] w/ 12 Hit/12 Crit
Wrist	[Bracers of Swift Death] w/ 50 AP
Hands	[Sunreaver Assassin's Gloves] w/ 20 Agi
Finger1	[Planestalker Signet]
Finger2	[Dexterous Brightstone Ring]
Trinket1	[Death's Choice]
Trinket2	[Banner of Victory]
Back	[Sylvanas' Cunning] w/ 22 Agi
MainHand	[Twin's Pact] w/ Executioner (
Idol	[Idol of Mutilation]

Gemming: Every slot gemmed with ArP and a Nightmare's Tear on the headpiece for the 8 Agi bonus.

Attack Power: 13051
Agility: 2464
Strength: 407
Crit Rating: 520
Hit Rating: 200
Expertise Rating: 86
Haste Rating: 379
Armor Penetration Rating: 1263 (90.21% passive ArP, 98.79% with Executioner proc)
DPS: 10367.31


*With [Knightbane Carapace] + 16 Agi on boots you have 1270 ArP, 270 hit, but a total DPS of 10339.

The ArP set is just not higher since it's mainly ilvl245 items competing with ilvl258. Needless to say that if Icecrown launches ilvl258/272 items with ArP, the cap will be reached and those items will be part of the best in slot gearlist unless the ArP mechanics get changed in the meanwhile.

As for now, Rawr disagrees with it. Hoping to see some FBN results here soon as I lack the knowledge to perform them myself.

Hrm, what program is that Furial? I've been using simulation craft while waiting on FBN's numbers and end up with 9596 dps on the ArP+2T9 set.

Still rawr as said on my 1st sentence. Unfortunately i don't know how to work with FBN.

Hey Furial, on the first gearset you posted, you called it 4xT9+258 pieces, but you only have 2T9 on the list itself.

Correct values, wrong link. Thanks.

Ahh ok, when you said best sim, I thought you refered to a sim program and not a simmed gearset. My mistake.

@Furial:
Did you click on all buffs? Like Bloodlust and Trauma/Mangle effects, Double pot and all professions buffs?

Has anyone tried to replace the i245 trinket with [Comet's Trail]. I fail at using Rawr and get really odd max dps out of it. So if someone who knows how to operate it could try it, I'd much appreciate it.

@Jodanu

Yes, Bloodlust and trauma/mangle are up. BS/JC for professions but no 2nd pot. If you use it 1 second too late you wont be able to use it midfight possibly screwing your DPS a bit.

@Namste
Comet's Trail stands below ilvl245 Death's Choice by a good margin.

Since there are some repeated requests for results from FbN on BiS 25-man gear with the new value of ArP, I took the trouble of running the sets included in Furial's post above. I normally only do 10-mans, but academic interest and a desire to help this nice community from which I have learned a lot won out in the end. Please don't start requesting your individual gear ideas to be run through FbN.

Some assumptions:
- As there is no official release by Nightcrowler of FbN after 3.2.2. I'm using the fix indicated in this post. Although unofficial, the numbers output by this change (in percentage of ArP) match the in-game, armoury and Rawr values.
- I have included all the buffs in FbN's code and assumed a Mangle-bot (100% Mangle uptime) and target bleeding 100% of the time, as I imagine this is the case for most 25-man raids. In any case, same settings were used for all runs, and we're only really interested in comparissons between them.
- Raw stat values were calculated by building the respective lists in Wowhead and taking the base values from there. Then enchants, gems, food (ArP) and flask of endless rage were added. The buffs are coded in FbN and a Tauren druid is assumed. The aggresive stats is what FbN outputs. Also, Agi was increased by 200 in all runs to simulate the Idol of Mutilation, which if I understood correctly has not yet properly been implemented in the code.

Here are the results:

4xT9 + ilvl258 Offset Gear

Aggressive Stats after all the buffs (full stacked raid + Bloodlust used 1 time
in a 5 min fight)
_______________________

Cat (crit% vs. a boss (-4.8% added)): 61.8688%
Bear (crit% vs. a boss (-4.8% added)): 57.8688%
Cat (AP): 12819
Bear (AP): 9309
Agility: 2231
Strengh: 417
Intellect: 377
Spirit: 354
Mana: 7200
Average MP5 In combat: 181, Average MP5 out of combat: 372
Expertise: 20
Hit: 8.50869%
Armor Penetration: 64.3053%
Haste (from equipment): 19.6645%
+weapon damage: 0
Shield value = 2327


Boss base Armor (before penetration and debuff): 10643
Boss modified Armor (after penetration and debuff): 3089.76
Boss Damage Reduction (after debuff and penetration): 16.8634%
Weapon Speed Reduction % (Total without Bloodlust): 32%
Missed % (Total): 0%
Dodged %: 1.37725%
Not normalized attacks parried by the boss: 0%
_____________________________________

DPS: 9872.08 +/- 1.21134, (Min-Max variance: 46.475%, Lower dps sample: 6600, Upper dps sample: 11188) , Cat: 100%, Bear: 0%, TPS: 7009.18

**************************************
CAT

White cat: 3533.42, Yellow cat: 6338.66
White: 35.792% (SR: 0%)
Mangle: 0%, Avg dmg: -1.#IND, #/cycle: 0), Shred: 31.5902%, Avg dmg: 11361.3, #/cycle: 7.47655), RIP: 17.4816%, Avg dmg: 49470.3, #/cycle: 0.950199)
Rake: 9.35855%, Avg dmg: 12631.5, #/cycle: 1.99219), Ferocious Bite: 5.77763%, Avg dmg: 21570.2, #/cycle: 0.720233, Average Energy Usage: 42)
Savage Roar uptime: 99.2279%

**************************************


2xT9 + best ArP offset Gear

Aggressive Stats after all the buffs (full stacked raid + Bloodlust used 1 time
in a 5 min fight)
_______________________

Cat (crit% vs. a boss (-4.8% added)): 57.7675%
Bear (crit% vs. a boss (-4.8% added)): 53.7675%
Cat (AP): 12366
Bear (AP): 8990
Agility: 2147
Strengh: 417
Intellect: 431
Spirit: 392
Mana: 7740
Average MP5 In combat: 187, Average MP5 out of combat: 414
Expertise: 20
Hit: 6.09942%
Armor Penetration: 90.2418%
Haste (from equipment): 14.0348%
+weapon damage: 0
Shield value = 2247


Boss base Armor (before penetration and debuff): 10643
Boss modified Armor (after penetration and debuff): 1073.53
Boss Damage Reduction (after debuff and penetration): 6.58362%
Weapon Speed Reduction % (Total without Bloodlust): 29%
Missed % (Total): 1.90058%
Dodged %: 1.37725%
Not normalized attacks parried by the boss: 0%
_____________________________________

DPS: 9720.6 +/- 1.26249, (Min-Max variance: 45.7169%, Lower dps sample: 6600, Upper dps sample: 11044) , Cat: 100%, Bear: 0%, TPS: 6901.62

**************************************
CAT

White cat: 3530.85, Yellow cat: 6189.74
White: 36.3234% (SR: 0%)
Mangle: 0%, Avg dmg: -1.#IND, #/cycle: 0), Shred: 33.1104%, Avg dmg: 11971.8, #/cycle: 7.29465), RIP: 16.0161%, Avg dmg: 44741, #/cycle: 0.944167)
Rake: 9.12639%, Avg dmg: 12173.3, #/cycle: 1.97737), Ferocious Bite: 5.42371%, Avg dmg: 22409, #/cycle: 0.638369, Average Energy Usage: 43)
Savage Roar uptime: 99.2063%

**************************************

An interesting point is that for the "best ArP" set, I run it also with Berserker and got 9722.94 DPS. However, the upper DPS sample in that case was 10962.3 compared to 11044 in the one above.

I then proceeded to see if it's worth to gem so that all useful gem bonuses are activated and what happens with a softcap+Mjolnir Runestone setup, as well as a full Agi gemming.

There was a surprise winner in the softcap+Mjolnir Runestone scenario!

The gear was the same as in the "4xT9 + ilvl258 Offset" case, but I removed the i-lvl 245 Death's Choice and put in the Mjolnir, obviously. I gemmed so that all bonuses are retained, then ArP until 740, then Agi for the rest.

Here's the result:

Aggressive Stats after all the buffs (full stacked raid + Bloodlust used 1 time
in a 5 min fight)
_______________________

Cat (crit% vs. a boss (-4.8% added)): 66.7381%
Bear (crit% vs. a boss (-4.8% added)): 62.7381%
Cat (AP): 12688
Bear (AP): 9028
Agility: 2379
Strengh: 417
Intellect: 377
Spirit: 354
Mana: 7200
Average MP5 In combat: 181, Average MP5 out of combat: 372
Expertise: 20
Hit: 8.50869%
Armor Penetration: 52.8733%
Haste (from equipment): 19.6645%
+weapon damage: 0
Shield value = 2257


Boss base Armor (before penetration and debuff): 10643
Boss modified Armor (after penetration and debuff): 3978.46
Boss Damage Reduction (after debuff and penetration): 20.7093%
Weapon Speed Reduction % (Total without Bloodlust): 32%
Missed % (Total): 0%
Dodged %: 1.37725%
Not normalized attacks parried by the boss: 0%
_____________________________________

DPS: 9919.15 +/- 1.21694, (Min-Max variance: 44.0053%, Lower dps sample: 6600, Upper dps sample: 10964.9) , Cat: 100%, Bear: 0%, TPS: 7042.6

**************************************
CAT

White cat: 3579.42, Yellow cat: 6339.74
White: 36.0859% (SR: 0%)
Mangle: 0%, Avg dmg: -1.#IND, #/cycle: 0), Shred: 32.0658%, Avg dmg: 11482.9, #/cycle: 7.57115), RIP: 17.3502%, Avg dmg: 49620.9, #/cycle: 0.948008)
Rake: 8.52714%, Avg dmg: 12406.1, #/cycle: 1.86354), Ferocious Bite: 5.97092%, Avg dmg: 21591.1, #/cycle: 0.749788, Average Energy Usage: 43)
Savage Roar uptime: 99.1689%

**************************************

Comparing the two highest results ("4xT9 + ilvl258 Offset" in Furial's setup and "4xT9 + ilvl258 Offset + Mjolnir and softcap") we see 9872.08 DPS for the former and 9919.15 DPS for the latter. However, upper DPS sample is 11188 for the former and 10964.9 for the latter.


The rest of the setups mentioned above are, briefly, as follows:

4xT9 + ilvl258 Offset + Retain all gem bonuses: 9816.85
4xT9 + ilvl258 Offset + Full Agi gemming: 9603.28

Finally, if you take a look at the 'Aggresive stats' sections, you'll notice a significant divergence (AP and Agi) from Rawr's values. I do not know why this is, if any buffs are missing or if I made some mistake in the calculations for the raw values. I tend to trust FbN more in the results, as it is a simulator, while Rawr is a math model. In any case, we're interested in the comparissons between gear sets under the same conditions, so this should not play a big part in it.

Rawr has stopped implementing proccable items as static values. Is your Agi off by around 230? Is your AP off by around 125? I'm also unsure as to whether FbN's "aggressive stats" differences are averages over the course of the fight, or expected static values.

1- I'm not sure on this one but isn't 100% bleed time an unreal assumption? Is it known which bleed time % Nightcrawler has been using on his testing? I'm basing myself on this post on the previous page, please correct it if its wrong.


2- Just to make it clear as you didn't mention. Which gems did you use on the yellow sockets? I found Deft Amerite (Agi+Haste) to be the best myself. Also you have blue sockets on the Bracers, Legs, Ring, Weapon. Other than 1 Nightmare Tear on the Bracers/Legs/Weapon (biggest bonus, 6 Agility) what did you use on the other sockets? After multiple testing (with Rawr) I found the best dps gem combo to be with one Nightmare Tear on one of the blue socket items and the other 3 items gemmed with Agi/ArP depending if i had the soft cap or not. As for Red / Yellow / Red+Yellow socket combos I used Agi/ArP on the red sockets and Agi+Haste on the yellow sockets. Let us know if you did it like this and/or if you found a bigger DPS gem combo.

3- You told us that with 4xT9 + ilvl258 Offset Gear you got 9872.08 DPS.
But then you said that gemmed with full Agi you obtained 9603.28 and with the socket bonuses you got 9816.85. Neither of these 2 last values match 9872.08 DPS. Did i oversee something or you have a number wrong?

Also i noticed that despite the DPS values between Rawr and FBN are different, they agree on the gear list order and also the DPS difference between the sets of gear don't differ to much. Is it coincidence or Rawr can indeed be trusted?

Gear	Rawr	FBN
Softcap + Mjolnir + 4xT9	10598.49 DPS	9919.15 DPS
4xT9 + ilvl258 Offset Gear	10555.75 DPS	9872.08 DPS
2xT9 + best ArP Offset Gear	10378.55 DPS	9720.60 DPS

For things which require a bleeding target, any bleed will work, so in a 25 man there are a lot of bleeds from quite a few different players, so assuming the boss is bleeding 100% of the time is safe.

That's not what i meant. As for ramenchef, he stated that rake, rip and SR are assumed to have a 100% uptime on Rawr, making it a big flaw. Is it not what Nelkator assumed as well?

No, it is much higher than that. If you look at Furial's numbers, they show 13659 AP and 2737 Agi for the "4xT9 + ilvl258 Offset Gear". I'm reading 12819 AP and 2231 Agi for the same set. Same differences percentage-wise more or less for the 2nd set. I'm inputting raw stat numbers (i.e. no buffs) from the items, plus gems, enchants, food and flask. It is what I think Night has indicated should be the input on the simulator, I guess only he can explain this better. I think "Aggressive Stats" refers to stats as they are after all buffs are taken into account, not averages. Again though, only Nightcrowler can give you a definite answer.


Ok, let me be more clear on this.

1. Not sure either to be honest, I don't do 25-man raids. But, between an Arms warrior with Trauma and Rend, a Mangle-bot bleeding the target constantly (be it a cat or bear tank) and whatever else could be bleeding the target (not much experience with other classes), which I assume would be found in a typical raid setup (at least one of these), you could expect it to be, for all intents and purposes, 100%. If I'm wrong about that, I can rerun the tests and let you know if it changes anything when I get some time. But still, as I said, this is a comparisson, the actual numbers are not that much important in my book, as long as all runs are made with the same settings.

2. You're absolutely right, I should have elaborated. I assumed Deadly Ametrine (+10 Agi and +10 Crit) for the Yellow sockets, Puissant Dreadstone (+10 ArP and +15 Sta) for the Blue ones, one Nightmare Tear in the Helm slot (as you indicated) and the rest JC ArP and epic ArP/Agi depedning on the case. Now that you've mentioned it, it could maybe even be more useful to use a Nightmare Tear in a blue socket, as the orange gem gives 2 fully profitable stats, while the blue also gives you Sta, which is wasted. My tests where run with a Tear in the Helm socket though. If I get some time, I'll try a Tear in a blue socket and Deft Ametrines in Yellow ones.

3. The 9872.08 DPS value was obtained with a gear set exactly as you described it in your post, i.e. full ArP gemming and a Tear in the Helm slot. The other tries were merely for my curiosity (although in the Mjolnir+softcap case I seem to have hit the jackpot!).

If you have more questions don't hesitate to ask, I'll be happy to help furhter if I can.

@ Pheratia: I think you're talking about our talent "Rend and Tear". It's a correct assumption the boss will bleeding 100% for this on a 25 man. BUT, I think the "100% bleeding" of Rawr that everyone complains about, means you never let Rip nor Rake fall off the mob, and thats a false assumption, since the best players I have seen can keep this up like 90% of the time, reason being "human" reaction times and combo point generation RNG.

with the latest version of feralbynight I am seeing a bug while in bear form. Lately I've just ignored the suggestion pane while tanking. I used improved mangle and yet FBN recommends mangle before the cooldown is finished, it does this consistently, and appears to happen halfway through the cooldown.

Have you disabled lag correction?

Hello there, it's my first time posting so I apologize if this is the wrong place for this sort of question, but this seemed to be the most active thread related to my topic. Both Rawr and Toskk say that with my current gear (The World of Warcraft Armory) I should be doing 5400-5600 dps to a target dummy. After many hours of trying different things my best 3 minute round has been around 5000. I decided to download FBN and the best I was able to come up with while following its recommendations (which are, quite frankly very strange sometimes) was around 4600.

Getting to my question: Do any others of you notice that simulators indicate you should be doing quite a bit more damage than you actually are on a target dummy? Note that the modelers are both quite close when it comes to my raid dps. Thanks in advance and again I apologize if this is the wrong place for this sort of thing.

Seeing your numbers exactly, Rawr may be calculating trinket proc uptimes (i.e. Agi trinkets) and adding an averaged amount to your total Agility. This is less accurate than FbN's method, but with Agi, the difference between this method and doing it "for real" should be about the same. It only really "matters" for ArPen.

Optimal gemming in the simulations I ran were Deft Ametrine in yellow sockets and a nightmare tear in 1 blue socket. Furial, FBN and simulation craft are showing 9.9k-10k dps depending on professions for 4T9+softcap+mjolnir whereas rawr has most gear sets to be 10.4k+. It's overestimating the calculated dps by 500+. I think that is a rather large amount personally.

You're correct. I was just checking and the ilvl 258 Death Choice adds 212 Agility and the ilvl 245 Death Choice adds 188 Agility. That added to Nelkanor's Agility value "2231" ends up with 2631, still not 2737.

@Ramenchef

My calculations were done without Sylvana's Cunning nor Mangle/Trauma. I've tried it and i end up with 10639 dps which is even more far off. Could this 600-700 dps difference be the result of Rawr's 100% DoT and SR uptime assumption?