FeralbyNight (Cat & Bear simulation tool) - Page 96

Furial · 09/24/09, 8:24 PM

I didn't enable mangle/trauma. Nowadays warriors are all Fury and to experiment such an high level gear you will have to be in a high level guild. I doubt you'll find arms warriors there or even 2 cats.

As i said, with Mjolnir i gemmed Agi/Haste on yellow sockets (Deft Ametrite) and Nightmare's Tear on the blue socket of Twin's Pact. That would justify the haste deficiency.

I also enabled Strength of Earth Totem + Enhancing Totems instead of Horn of Winter. That alone is an extra 23 Agi + 23 Strength. As another minor thing, Might instead of Battle Shout will give you +2 Attack Power. Finally, don't forget about Potion of Haste and Bloodlust.

Hope it helped.

HJT · 09/25/09, 12:52 AM

what i read over the last few pages is, that there is currently (with 3.2.2) no easy way to say what is best.
first of all, all the different calc tools vary more than the tested combinations. that leads to the question, which is the most accurate?
Another thing is, it seems at the moment, everyone must run the simulator for himself to get "his". before, it was clear, take 2t9 and then take only stuff that has ArPen and so on.

Another thing may be, that with the nerf, blizzard made way for several playstyles? means, if people like a more quiet life, they go for ArPen (no trinket) resulting in more consistent DPS. if you go for softcap+mjolnir and then gem for agi, then your DPS will be less consistent.
For me, the maxed ArPen seems for the current content the better choice, as there is often movement or target switching.
And the other thing: we are now around 10k DPS. these 100 or less DPS difference (1%) on patchwerk-fights make a real difference, not?

-> with good movement and so on, you can get far more out of that
Then we have that (seen in the OP) gaussian bell curve DPS spread. i guess the stddev is also higher than 1%.

Conclusion: wether you go for ArPen stacking or for mjolnir+softcap then agi, your playstyle (and skill) matters more than your gear. the longer you stick on a single target (aka the more patchwerk-like the fight gets), mjolnir outweights ArPen stacking
For me, as i dont have mojlnir (sadly) and runnig/switching is a good part in coloseum, ill stay with ArPen stacking.

Curan · 09/25/09, 5:09 AM

Originally Posted by Jodanu

What about [Soul-Devouring Cinch] for expertise cap ?

Changing the softcaped version with agi Stack, with Soul-Devouring Cinch I got this result:
Simulation Nr 1 - Softcap with Agility - with Soul-Devouring Cinch

Slot	Item
Head	Malfurion's Headguard of Triumph (Arcanum of Torment -> 50 AP, 20 Crit Rating)
Neck	Charge of the Demon Lord
Shoulders	Malfurion's Shoulderpads of Triumph (Greater Inscription of the Axe -> 40 AP, 15 Crit Rating)
Chest	Vest of Shifting Shadows (Powerful Stats -> 10 Agility/Stamina/Strengh)
Waist	Soul-Devouring Cinch
Legs	Legguards of the broken Beast (Nerubian Leg Reinforcements -> 75 AP, 22 Crit Rating)
Feet	Treads of the Icewalker (Superior Agility -> 16 Agility)
Wrist	Bracers of Swift Death (Greater Assault -> 50 Attack Power)
Hands	Gloves of the Silver Assassin (Major Agility -> 20 Agility)
Finger1	Dexterous Brightstone Ring
Finger2	Ring of Callous Aggression
Trinket1	Mjolnir Runestone
Trinket2	Death's Choice
Back	Drape of the untamed Predator (Major Agility -> 22 Agility)
MainHand	Archon Glaive (Mungo -> 120 Agility, 2% physical Haste procc)
Idol	Idol of Mutilation

ArP Rating: 730 + Mjolnir Runestone (665 ArP Procc)
Hit Rating: 192
Expertise Rating: 152
Agility: 2674
DPS: 10071

It results in lower DPS.
You kind of trade hit for expertise.
If I got the numbers right, according to nightcrawler hit and expertise are about even in Colusseum BiS. Both come out at a dps value of 7.4
So the overall lower stats of Soul-Devouring Cinch seem to make it the worse choice.

Originally Posted by ramenchef

If you're going to go for just the soft-cap, use Vestments of Calamitous Fate for the chest and bracers of dark determination for wrists. No matter which gear set you are testing, Twin's Pact/Lupine Staff is better than the pole-arm. The cloak for all sets should be Sylvanna's Cunning. If you're going to go for ArP gemming even with Mjolnir, still stick with berserking/mongoose. As for trying to hard-cap, You'll probably get better mileage out of knightbane carapace as it has a bit more ArP, and it also has hit, which doesn't push you over the hit cap unlike with the other gear sets.

The Vest of Calamitous Fate does not have ArP, while the Armor of Shifting Shadows has 67 ArP rating.
Considering Sylvanna's Cunning I just happened to be unable to find it in Rawr, so I did not include it in the simulation.
Changing the Gear based on this I got this results:

Simulation Nr 1 - Softcap with Agility - with changed Items

Slot	Item
Head	Malfurion's Headguard of Triumph (Arcanum of Torment -> 50 AP, 20 Crit Rating)
Neck	Charge of the Demon Lord
Shoulders	Malfurion's Shoulderpads of Triumph (Greater Inscription of the Axe -> 40 AP, 15 Crit Rating)
Chest	Curiass of Calamitous Fate (Powerful Stats -> 10 Agility/Stamina/Strengh)
Waist	Belt of the Merciless Killer
Legs	Legguards of the broken Beast (Nerubian Leg Reinforcements -> 75 AP, 22 Crit Rating)
Feet	Treads of the Icewalker (Superior Agility -> 16 Agility)
Wrist	Bracers of Dark Determination (Greater Assault -> 50 Attack Power)
Hands	Gloves of the Silver Assassin (Major Agility -> 20 Agility)
Finger1	Dexterous Brightstone Ring
Finger2	Ring of Callous Aggression
Trinket1	Mjolnir Runestone
Trinket2	Death's Choice
Back	Drape of the untamed Predator (Major Agility -> 22 Agility)
MainHand	Archon Glaive (Mungo -> 120 Agility, 2% physical Haste procc)
Idol	Idol of Mutilation

ArP Rating: 661 + Mjolnir Runestone (665 ArP Procc)
Hit Rating: 289
Expertise Rating: 96
Agility: 2705
DPS: 10237

This part is nonsense, due to my misunderstanding of Cat-Swipe. Lupine Longstaff/Twin's Pact is always better then Archon Glaive.
Considering the weapons:
In this simulation Lupine Longstaff/Twin's Pact comes out 3520,22 Points in the Item Comparsions, while Archon Glaive come out at 3508, 35.
Changing the Weopons and gemming Lupine Longstaff/Twin's Pact with ArP rating the DPS rises to 10277.
Lupine Longstaff/Twin's Pact is the better weapon in terms of single target DPS.
Thoug I think it sould be pointed out here that Lupine Longstaff/Twin's Pact lacks AE power.
Since Cat-Swipe scales with weapon damage and Lupine Longstaff/Twin's Pact does only have 540 - 811 Damage while the Archon Glaive has 788 - 1183 Damage.
In encounters where AE matters (in example Freya) Archon Glaive would still be better.
Of course the best way would be to have both of them.
This part is nonsense, due to my misunderstanding of Cat-Swipe. Lupine Longstaff/Twin's Pact is always better then Archon Glaive.

@Odas
Like I said to ramenchef, I can't get Sylvanna's Cunning / Veressa's Dexterity into my Rawr.
Also how do I tell my Rawr to use both proccs form the 245 as well as the 258 version of Death's Choice?
I tried recreating some of your simulations and got different results, but righ now I am assuming this is due to the fact that I do not use Sylvanna's Cunning / Veressa's Dexterity.
I assume it would be pretty much pointless posting all the simulations that are off, until I can get Sylvanna's Cunning / Veressa's Dexterity to work.
Again I used all available raid buffs with the expectation of the draenei hit aura, gains from professions, double pot trick, 80 Attack Power gain from Mixology and the resistance buffs.

I still wanted to post the first one I tried:

Softcap + Mjolnir + 4xT9

Slot	Item
Head	Malfurion's Headguard of Triumph (Arcanum of Torment -> 50 AP, 20 Crit Rating)
Neck	Charge of the Demon Lord
Shoulders	Malfurion's Shoulderpads of Triumph (Greater Inscription of the Axe -> 40 AP, 15 Crit Rating)
Chest	Malfurion's Raiment's of Triumph (Powerful Stats -> 10 Agility/Stamina/Strengh)
Waist	Belt of the Merciless Killer
Legs	Malfurion's Legguards of Triumph (Nerubian Leg Reinforcements -> 75 AP, 22 Crit Rating)
Feet	Treads of the Icewalker (Superior Agility -> 16 Agility)
Wrist	Bracers of Dark Determination (Greater Assault -> 50 Attack Power)
Hands	Gloves of the Silver Assassin (Major Agility -> 20 Agility)
Finger1	Dexterous Brightstone Ring
Finger2	Ring of Callous Aggression
Trinket1	Mjolnir Runestone
Trinket2	Death's Choice
Back	Drape of the untamed Predator (Major Agility -> 22 Agility)
MainHand	Lupine Longstaff (Berserking -> 400 Attack Power procc)
Idol	Idol of Mutilation

ArP Rating: 701 + Mjolnir Runestone (665 ArP Procc)
Hit Rating: 279
Expertise Rating: 86
Agility: 2581
Attack Power: 13047
Haste: 578
Crit Rating: 756
Strengh: 371
DPS: 10320

My simulation comes out with 272,85 less DPS then your simulation.
Again I am not using any gains from professions here.
using 3 fractured dragon's eyes I would still land at 10399 DPS, what would still be 193,85 DPS lower than on your version.
Are those numbers the result of the missing Sylvanna's Cunning / Veressa's Dexterity?

Also notice that I am assuming your icewalker enchant on the Icewalker Treads is a typo, since with 279 hit rating (I get the same hit on my simulation) you are already 16 Hit over the cap, making Superior Agility -> 16 Agility clearly the better enchant.

Boevis · 09/25/09, 9:08 AM

Is there any chance someone could run the FbN simulator using the new ArP values so we can get a comparison to these numbers from Rawr?

I've never trust Rawr too much since it is just a calculator, not a simulator, and, correct me if I'm wrong, it still doesn't properly calculate our CP generation because it just averages crits/energy.

Furial · 09/25/09, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Curan

Considering Sylvanna's Cunning I just happened to be unable to find it in Rawr, so I did not include it in the simulation.

Right click on any cloak, edit and reform it so it has the exact same stats as Sylvanna's Cunning.

Originally Posted by Curan

The Vest of Calamitous Fate does not have ArP, while the Armor of Shifting Shadows has 67 ArP rating.

I believe the reason Ramenchef said Vest of Calamitous Fate, regardless of softcap or hardcap is that at least when i ran Rawr, in every case scenario, the stats on a no-ArP ilvl258 item outweighted the stats on a ilvl245 ArP item. And since nowadays you can't get over 1142 ArP or so, the ilvl245 items don't become good enough to outweight the stats on the ilvl258 ones. Please correct me on this one if i'm wrong.

Originally Posted by Curan

Also how do I tell my Rawr to use both proccs form the 245 as well as the 258 version of Death's Choice?

Select Darkmoon Card: Greatness, swap the 90 agility on it for 256 AP, change the buff to 450 Agi and put the proc at 35% if it isn't already.

Originally Posted by Curan

Again I used all available raid buffs with the expectation of the draenei hit aura, gains from professions, double pot trick, 80 Attack Power gain from Mixology and the resistance buffs.

In order to achieve the highest results you'll have to choose BS and JC. With those 2 you can't select the 80 AP from Mixology as that's another profession.

Curan · 09/25/09, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Furial

Right click on any cloak, edit and reform it so it has the exact same stats as Sylvanna's Cunning.

I believe the reason Ramenchef said Vest of Calamitous Fate, regardless of softcap or hardcap is that at least when i ran Rawr, in every case scenario, the stats on a no-ArP ilvl258 item outweighted the stats on a ilvl245 ArP item. And since nowadays you can't get over 1142 ArP or so, the ilvl245 items don't become good enough to outweight the stats on the ilvl258 ones. Please correct me on this one if i'm wrong.

Select Darkmoon Card: Greatness, swap the 90 agility on it for 256 AP, change the buff to 450 Agi and put the proc at 35% if it isn't already.

In order to achieve the highest results you'll have to choose BS and JC. With those 2 you can't select the 80 AP from Mixology as that's another profession.

Thank you for the help and clarifications.
I will upgrade all my simulations taking Sylvana's Cunning/Vereesa's Dexterity into the sims.

Considering the professional gains I realise that JC will come out top.
I still am hesistant to use the in my simulations as I want to keep them more general and not assume certain professions.
Of course I do realise that going for maximum DPS they will be necessary.

ramenchef · 09/25/09, 11:10 AM

Boevis, I've been running numbers myself with simcraft as I too do not trust Rawr in the way it models Feral DPS, especially the way it does bleed uptime and rip vs FB usage. I find the numbers in SimCraft to be very similar to FBN's in most cases and far easier to run simulations. My findings show 2T9 vs 4T9 soft-capped are within ~5 DPS of each other so far.

Jodanu · 09/25/09, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by Curan

Changing the softcaped version with agi Stack, with Soul-Devouring Cinch I got this result:
Simulation Nr 1 - Softcap with Agility - with Soul-Devouring Cinch

ArP Rating: 730 + Mjolnir Runestone (665 ArP Procc)
Hit Rating: 192
Expertise Rating: 152
Agility: 2674
DPS: 10071

It results in lower DPS.
You kind of trade hit for expertise.
If I got the numbers right, according to nightcrawler hit and expertise are about even in Colusseum BiS. Both come out at a dps value of 7.4
So the overall lower stats of Soul-Devouring Cinch seem to make it the worse choice.

You can build a gear with hit and expertise capped with [Soul-Devouring Cinch].

Slot	Item
Head	[Runetotem's Headguard of Triumph]
Neck	[Charge of the Eredar]
Shoulders	[Runetotem's Shoulderpads of Triumph]
Chest	[Vest of Calamitous Fate]
Waist	[Soul-Devouring Cinch]
Legs	[Legwraps of the Broken Beast]
Feet	[Treads of the Icewalker]
Wrist	[Bracers of Swift Death]
Hands	[Gloves of the Silver Assassin]
Finger1	[Planestalker Band]
Finger2	[Ring of Callous Aggression]
Trinket1	[Mjolnir Runestone]
Trinket2	[Death's Choice]
Back	Sylvannas Cunning
MainHand	[Twin's Pact]
Idol	[Idol of Mutilation]

Icewalker on Feet / Berserking on Weapon
4 [Deadly Ametrine] on some slots for socket bonus (Head, Shoulders, Finger1 and Feet)
10 [Fractured Cardinal Ruby]
5 [Delicate Cardinal Ruby]
[Nightmare Tear] for Meta Socket activation
ArP JC prismatic gems

ArP Rating: 734 + Mjolnir Runestone (665 ArP Procc)
Hit Rating: 267
Expertise Rating: 142
Agility: 2701
DPS: 10305

Every buff, except Bloodlust and Trauma/Mangle.
ArP food.

[Twin's Pact] > [Hellion Glaive] with any gear.

Pheratia · 09/25/09, 1:06 PM

Originally Posted by Curan

Considering the weapons:
In this simulation Lupine Longstaff/Twin's Pact comes out 3520,22 Points in the Item Comparsions, while Archon Glaive come out at 3508, 35.
Changing the Weopons and gemming Lupine Longstaff/Twin's Pact with ArP rating the DPS rises to 10277.
Lupine Longstaff/Twin's Pact is the better weapon in terms of single target DPS.
Thoug I think it sould be pointed out here that Lupine Longstaff/Twin's Pact lacks AE power.
Since Cat-Swipe scales with weapon damage and Lupine Longstaff/Twin's Pact does only have 540 - 811 Damage while the Archon Glaive has 788 - 1183 Damage.
In encounters where AE matters (in example Freya) Archon Glaive would still be better.
Of course the best way would be to have both of them.

If I'm not mistaken, when swipe refers to "weapon damage" it does not mean the actual item, but rather our cat form "weapon" that we actually swing with, which is still present and quite separate.

Talanik · 09/25/09, 1:22 PM

@ Furial, your hardcap ArP set differs very slightly from your softcap, 900 ArP is not hardcap, nor is it even close. However, after some extensive testing with gear sets and as using as many different combinations I could think of, I found that pretty much every set of gear I made, whether hardcap/softcap or 2pc/4pc, differed very little in calculated DPS, with a range of +-100 DPS for each set. Assuming the calculations are close to accurate, would it be safe to say that whichever benefits your playstyle and preference more is equally viable and useful as any other?

Also, as a side note, your comment about arms warriors in high end guilds is vastly incorrect. They can do nearly the same amount of DPS as fury warriors, only falling behind on AoE damage. However, if a guild runs with a feral, the buff that they can provide easily overcompensates for the slight DPS loss they have as fury. Arms warriors are incredibly viable if they are extremely skilled. We run with both a fury and arms warriors, who compete in DPS constantly. Our arms warrior is in the top 5 DPS of every fight and hardmode that we have done for his class/spec on WMO.

Jodanu · 09/25/09, 2:03 PM

Originally Posted by Pheratia

If I'm not mistaken, when swipe refers to "weapon damage" it does not mean the actual item, but rather our cat form "weapon" that we actually swing with, which is still present and quite separate.

Yes, its from "weapon dmg" in cat form. 250% of swing in cat form, not 250% of the Weapon swing.

Furial · 09/25/09, 8:15 PM

@ Talanik: You misunderstood me. I'm aware the hardcap is at 1400 ArP. What i meant with "Hardcap" was more an "attempt to reach hardcap"which was basically no Mjolnir and full ArP gemming. Inside this "attempt to reach hardcap" idea 2 sims were made; with ilvl245 ArP gear and with no ArP ilvl258 items.

anything25 · 09/27/09, 3:34 AM

I remember a while back there was talk about when agility began to become not as good once we reached somewhere in the 60 - 65% area. Now that it is once again better to go for the soft cap for most people it seems that we are easily going to be hitting these levels. Is this still the case or is agility have a big enough lead over the other stats for it to still be worth gemming for over hit/expertise/strength? Just wondering because even in heroics now with my trinket and idol procced I am hitting in the 65% crit chance area.

Pheratia · 09/27/09, 4:03 AM

mod - remove this post please

Archdrood · 09/27/09, 9:48 AM

I've read all the pgs since 3.2.2 and the question has been asked a few times now, but no response.
What is the new Stats value for ArP? The last time it was updated in Aug was 2.74. Since 3.2.2, ArP was nerfed 12%, I assume it not simply decreasing the ArP stats value by 12%, as Agi stats value will come up too?