Feral Tanking Discussion

Artemas · 04/27/09, 12:48 PM

Hello fellow druids! It seems that unlike Moonkin/Resto threads, feral tanking discussion is being spread around in many threads (and mostly are mixed with feral cat/DPS discussion). I believe it is reasonable enough for us bear tanks to have a central thread to discuss a general, tanking-related only aspect of feral. If creation of this thread is not appropriate, please let me know so I can go ahead and delete the thread (or Moderator can do it).

Currently I am a MT in a decent guild (killed Yogg25 easy mode first week), so needless to say I spend most of my time as bear. We run 3 MTs (Paladin/Druid/Warrior) and 1 OT (DK) setup, and due to small roster nature of my guild, I am allowed to DPS occasionally.

Let me start off the discussion!

In terms of Ulduar gear, what is your opinion on current lootlist avaliable for us tanking druids? I have looked around for some "definitely for tanking" pieces (like Naxx's [Dislocating Handguards] and [Origin of Nightmares]) but unless something escapes my eyes, I have yet to see any.

Vinen · 04/27/09, 1:16 PM

This has been a major frustration for me recently as I've searched for upgrades in "non-leather slots". I haven't seen any upgrades that are "well itemized" for Ferals. Everything feels like it's a minor upgrade with many wasted stats. See: [Signet of Winter]. Hopefully, items along the lines of [Gatekeeper] will crop up in the loot tables of Hard Modes.

• Caniki · 04/27/09, 2:02 PM

[The Leviathan's Coil] is without a doubt, a bear item.

Also, use Rawr.

Spherus · 04/27/09, 2:33 PM

There are definitely some upgrades to be found in Ulduar 25 that are oriented for bear tanking. For me, in a semi-casual 10 man guild though there is basically no reason to run Ulduar 10 (aside from tier pieces) that I can find. Technically the neck from Kologarn is an upgrade/sidegrade from Boundless Ambition, but there is nothing in the off-set slots, jewelery, weapon, idol or trinket that is an actual upgrade, in some cases even from Naxx 10/heroics gear.

So much for the 'separate paths of progression' in 10 and 25 man - has anyone seen anything different? Going through the mmo-champion/wowhead data mining there is literally nothing in Ulduar 10 aside from the neck I mentioned that seems actually itemized with bear tanks in mind; meanwhile, just about every single boss has a plate tanking piece that is at least an upgrade in the '10 man progression' line of thinking.

Omnicia · 04/27/09, 5:01 PM

[Heart of Iron], while good for any tank, I believe to be most beneficial for druids over any other class.

Loryli · 04/27/09, 8:10 PM

Originally Posted by Omnicia

[Heart of Iron], while good for any tank, I believe to be most beneficial for druids over any other class.

I agree - [Heart of Iron] will be an Upgrade for my set (or pretty much every bear), but that leaves me to wonder what the next best piece will be?

Rawr still tells me [Defender's Code] is best in slot for mitigation, [Darkmoon Card: Greatness] is close and still amazing as a cat/threat, and unfortunately [Figurine - Monarch Crab] is still a very good choice - but Not because the item is good, simply relative to the choices Blizzard has given us in terms of Feral Tanking trinkets.

[Royal Seal of King Llane] is a great choice for every other tank, but obviously not itemized with Feral in mind.

[Furnace Stone] is a very interesting choice. The armor soft cap is around 40k (hitting cap with inspiration which is up 90%+ with well geared healers) and with Savage def changes I am once again no were near that. I push around 34k Raid buffed with the majority of my peripheral gear having Added armor ([The Leviathan's Coil] and [Gatekeeper] etc). The issue I see with this trinket is that it is only effective if you know your about to take significant physical dmg. Most the time I save my "Oh Sh*t" buttons when I have just taken an extra large burst to give my healers time, or when I know a big burst is coming (Mimiron P1/Steelbreaker for example). In neither situation does this trinket shine. That doesn't mean it doesn't have its place in one of our sets. Thorim P2 this would be an excellent choice, even with a portion of his dmg being Nature. Maybe Snaplashers? Or Vezax. Im unsure.

[The General's Heart] peaks my interest - but something that would require a bit of simcrafting. It has a 5% proc rate, and it seems Bosses have an average swing speed of 2.0. That would give this trinket a 5% chance to proc a 1025 heal, which does not seem significant against raid boss MTing. OTing smaller adds of course increases the mitigation on this significantly. Will I take this trinket? For a situational gear choice, yes. But I wont be spending significant DKP on it if thats what is required.

Ultimately I think I will spend the Majority of my time tanking with the Heart of Iron and (Once again near best in slot with a blue piece) the Monarch Crab; tho I am seriously considering building another Darkmoon card for the Agility piece. My hope is that there is a great tanking trinket yet to be seen in one of the later Hard mode fights (Yogg, Agalon?)

EDIT: Im glad we finally have a thread dedicated to Feral Tanks - All the "feral" threads end up going down the Kitty track - Digging for parses, theorycraft, and other useful information on F.Tanks in multiple threads is very inconvenient.

Kiore · 04/28/09, 3:05 AM

I find it a bit hard to focus and prioritize the various drops also. There are a few obvious items, but I'm left wondering what Blizz's vision for our gearing is now with Savage Defense.

The nerf to stamina had me worried I didn't have enough hps, but I have main tanked every fight in Ulduar 25 and it has not been a problem; which has lead me to stacking even more agility since it has become even better with Savage Defense / Primal Gore. The various theorycrafting sites around for our gear (Toskk & Rawr) seem to have very different results and while maybe that is good as it may signal more diverse gearing options, but it has left me a tad unconfident in my gear choices.

Any of the rest of you in this boat? [Heart of Iron], [Idol of the Corruptor], [item]The Leviathan's Coil[/ITEM have stuck out the most thus far and now that I have 3/4 of those, I'm kind of left wondering where I go next.

Boevis · 04/28/09, 3:39 AM

If you average out the Use abilities, [Furnace Stone] ends up as 105 dodge, 858.67 armor compared to [Defender's Code] 75.83 dodge 850 armor. Since the 5152 isn't going to push me above the armor cap within the near future, to me this seems to be the superior method. Using both as well as other cooldowns is also fun for a shield wall effect for things like Plasma Blast and Thorim's Unbalancing.

Falk · 04/28/09, 4:52 AM

Depends how you look at it though, unlike an avoidance boost (Where avoidance is inherently already streaky in nature, hence you look at averages for effectiveness), 850 armor constant is far more valuable than 858.67 armor average from a worst-case-scenario angle.

On the flip side a 5k armor clicky is pretty much a better cooldown than an avoidance clicky.

Inaiwae · 04/28/09, 6:11 AM

delete, i didnt read falk's post properly before replying

Loryli · 04/28/09, 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Boevis

If you average out the Use abilities, [Furnace Stone] ends up as 105 dodge, 858.67 armor compared to [Defender's Code] 75.83 dodge 850 armor. Since the 5152 isn't going to push me above the armor cap within the near future, to me this seems to be the superior method. Using both as well as other cooldowns is also fun for a shield wall effect for things like Plasma Blast and Thorim's Unbalancing.

I dont think I would consider this superior, nor do I think I agree with Falk's assessment that a Armor clicky outshines a Dodge clicky. Having the armor constant gives you more constant damage, but having it every 2 minutes for 20 seconds would make you take Far more burst damage - the kind of damage that usually ends up killing a MT. I dont think see too many tanks get nickled and dimed to death, its two or three really big hits in a short window that brings them down.

And while I do agree with you Falk in that if I know I am about to take big dmg and already at Full hp Id prefer the armor clicky; but that's not going to happen often. With the exception of Thorim's stacking buff or Snaplashers, there are very few moments I have encountered in Uld 25 (Haven't seen Yogg25 or Alagorn yet however) that I can Expect burst and it not be some form of magic damage. Id much prefer to take the Dodge, seeing as I would be activating it's ability after I take a significant hit, while my HP pool is low but hopefully giving my healers precious time to get me up with a dodged hit rather than a 5% more mitigated hit that will probably kill me anyway.

The above, however, is just my opinion on tanking and play style. I know a great deal of tanks out there who blow CD's every chance (Many just macro'd into the rotation) so to give them overall less damage in a fight. I save mine for situations I feel that I need them. The goal of the a for mentioned tanks of course is to take less dmg overall and save healers some mana, but I think it has the opposite effect - it makes us streaky tanks like we were in BC and turns us into sponges, as the healers don't know when to slow down to heals or pick them back up so they just give us the big juice.

Deathwing · 04/28/09, 12:50 PM

BTW, if you're using rawr to evaluate the Furnace Stone, the trinket modeling for the clicky effect seems to bugged. I deleted it entirely and the value of the trinket did not change. Added it in averaged out and it was now the second best trinket behind Nobles. This only seems to be a problem with bonus armor though.

Artemas · 04/28/09, 12:59 PM

I apologize if this has been mentioned somewhere else in different threads, but if you were to MT most bosses in Ulduar, isn't it correct to assume that 2T8 bonus is practically worthless?

Currently I am trying to make a list of the "highly-preferred" leather pieces (for tanking) so I won't have to "steal" the non-optimal pieces from rogues. Still trying to figure out whether I should go with 4T8 route (for a situation tier bonus) or better off-set stats, etc.

HengeMaker · 04/28/09, 1:29 PM

Hi. I'm tanking in a _very_ casual raiding guild(in terms of raids times that is: we raid twice a week for 3-4 hours). So we're only up through Kologarm/Council.

Just wondering in terms of leather gear: Is the tier gear BiS? I've looked over WowHead's drop list, and I don't see anything that looks competitive in the non-tier leather. If so, that kinda sucks, since the T8/8.5 set bonuses are pretty lame for bears.

Mijae · 04/28/09, 2:11 PM

Tier 8 bonus is junk for bears. You are better off just looking for the highest ilvl gear. That includes Embrace of the Gladiator, Shoulderpads of the Intruder, and Legguards of Cunning Deception (all 239). From there, I'd say look to stack the hit/expertise and high stamina items like [Garona's Guise] and [Gloves of the Stonereaper]. [Belt of the Twilight Assassin] does well for this also. Of course, a casual guild might never going to see the 239s.

Ohh, and welcome back to TBC where a feral in full gladiator is going to make an excellent tank also.