Feral Tanking Discussion - Page 41

Inaiwae · 11/11/09, 4:34 AM

@kalbear: why would you put agi+crit gem to tank gear? Last time i checked rawr, defense + stamina was worth using for yellow gems with agi / stam bonuses.

Allev · 11/11/09, 9:34 AM

Originally Posted by Hakana4155

I attempted my first 10 man H ToC last night and we weren't able to get past Gormak. Some people in the raid felt that the problem was my gear. I think the problem was actually two fold; my gear might be a little low and we were trying to two heal it. I logged out in my DPS gear last night so checking my armory will not help, but I was sitting at around 42k health, 40% dodge. Not sure what my armor was at but it is definitely over 32k. I know for a fact I need to upgrade a couple of pieces in my tank set. What would be the minimum values to run 10 man H ToC ?

First, choose good glyphs for Bear. Mangle is not a good glyph for bear in any circumstances. Glyph SI, and choose between FR, maul and growl on a per-fight basis.

You're in your tank gear now, and a mixture of mostly Naxx and some Ulduar gear isn't going to cut it for ToGC-- bears aren't that overpowered. Especially without stacking stam trinkets. Go farm up [The Black Heart] and even an [Essence of Gossamer] would be better than your trinkets. Don't try to tank ToGC until you've got ToC gear in a bunch of slots already.

Naturalhigh · 11/11/09, 10:09 AM

this is in addition to Allev - I have recently become the MT for my guild so that i may get some BIS gear before ice crown comes. during 10 man raids i have minimum 48k hp (usually a little over 50k) with 31k armor and 42% dodge. the hp overall for me is ok for tanking togc however still low for a bear. Also while being fully raid buffed at 54k hp the other MT's have as much hp as i do (warrior, pally). Don't even bother attempting togc until you reach the same or greater hp than this. Togc is no joke, there's a reason only a select few can do it.

kalbear · 11/11/09, 11:45 AM

@kalbear: why would you put agi+crit gem to tank gear? Last time i checked rawr, defense + stamina was worth using for yellow gems with agi / stam bonuses.

I wouldn't. The prior poster had recommended this as a choice for yellow sockets, presumably.

Daboran · 11/12/09, 3:44 AM

I've used agi/crit gems in yellow slots where I have to share that piece of gear with my Cat set and the socket bonus makes sense. You're not giving much up and gaining threat/savage defense proc chance.

Btw - Anub heroic down - yeah baby! Most rewarding fight for me I think since maybe Sarth3D or even Illidan, though our add tanks hate it :P
I have the feeling though its going to be one of "those" bosses where we can just as easily 1-shot it as wipe 15 times until we outgear it.

kalbear · 11/12/09, 11:28 AM

I have the feeling though its going to be one of "those" bosses where we can just as easily 1-shot it as wipe 15 times until we outgear it.

It's fairly repeatable actually. You might occasionally die to a DC/random add killing add tank, but the hard part is very mechanical, which is the PC healing. Once you have that down well enough to kill him, you shouldn't be wiping on him all that much.

For shared gear it's acceptable to use an agi/crit gem (though agi/haste would be more beneficial to both bears and cats). But don't dress it up as a useful gem for bears. The crit/haste is very poor for bears, and it's not ideal for cats either. Unless it's a seriously good socket bonus chances are you'd be better with pure agi or expertise in both specs.

You can do what you like, of course, but it's certainly not optimal for tanking, and the value of crit for SD procs is fairly marginal.

Kirbie44 · 11/12/09, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Daboran

I have the feeling though its going to be one of "those" bosses where we can just as easily 1-shot it as wipe 15 times until we outgear it.

It is easily repeatable. However, in respect to PC healing, that was never our problem. We had lost a warrior tank coming into the progression to burnt out. Our paladin had to develop his "un-hit-able" set, and solo tank the adds. After our first kill, we killed Anub on our 3rd attempt the next kill to get mad skill. We died on the first wave of adds within 1 minute because our DPS warrior demo shouted too early, only getting 1 add in the demo shout. One thing to note is to make your DVE - DBM - BW or whatever boss mod you use, up to date at all times. We have a ret pally Holy Wrath to stop Shadow Strike. His DVE was outdated, and got out of wack during our 2nd attempt. The third attempt we got it as he just listened for Shadowstrike as Anub tells the adds when to do so.

Basically it is easily repeatable, but so many little things that individuals have to be responsible for, that DC's or Lag spikes can really screw you over, as 1 individual with a specific job can fail the raid if he fails, or the game pukes on him or whatever. I personally hit a lag spike on our kill and let one of my PC targets die.

Tuftears · 11/12/09, 5:21 PM

Originally Posted by kalbear

For shared gear it's acceptable to use an agi/crit gem (though agi/haste would be more beneficial to both bears and cats). But don't dress it up as a useful gem for bears.

For a single slot, a [Nightmare Tear] would be pretty reasonable, no? Otherwise than that, a [Delicate Cardinal Ruby] might also work for shared pieces, since you get a small amount of armor (when not stunned or otherwise incapacitated) as well as dodge.

kalbear · 11/12/09, 7:01 PM

[Nightmare Tear] is by far the best yellow gem for bears that you can do, and it's pretty great for cats - though it's best for cats in blue slots. The primary reason to use it for cats is so that you can meet your meta requirement with one gem and meet some socket bonus as well.

Agi gems are usually my choice for shared pieces, as they're optimal or close to it for cats and not horrible for bears.

11/16/09, 12:57 AM

Originally Posted by Tuftears

For a single slot, a [Nightmare Tear] would be pretty reasonable, no? Otherwise than that, a [Delicate Cardinal Ruby] might also work for shared pieces, since you get a small amount of armor (when not stunned or otherwise incapacitated) as well as dodge.

I find the nightmare tear more than reasonable. especially if you are using the piece for both your cat and bear specs.

Originally Posted by Hakana4155

I attempted my first 10 man H ToC last night and we weren't able to get past Gormak. Some people in the raid felt that the problem was my gear. I think the problem was actually two fold; my gear might be a little low and we were trying to two heal it. I logged out in my DPS gear last night so checking my armory will not help, but I was sitting at around 42k health, 40% dodge. Not sure what my armor was at but it is definitely over 32k. I know for a fact I need to upgrade a couple of pieces in my tank set. What would be the minimum values to run 10 man H ToC ?

generally for my guild a druid tank needs to have over 41k unbuffed hp to tank togc10 so if you only had that buffed then they shouldn't have even attempted it. let alone tried to 2 heal the instance. in my experience no matter how good the healers are it always goes smoother to have 3 healers instead of 2 healing a 10 man

Daw00 · 11/16/09, 4:44 AM

Has anyone calculated how much worth a point of armor will have compared to stamina in ICC? For physical damage ofc.

thorngrip · 11/17/09, 8:54 AM

Originally Posted by Daw00

Has anyone calculated how much worth a point of armor will have compared to stamina in ICC? For physical damage ofc.

Satrina's Evil Empire Guide on AC and Stamina.

There is no absolute value nor anything significant about ICC to make those calculations any different.

The formula as presented in Satrina's guide and adapted to a lvl 80 bear vs a lvl 83 raid boss would be:

1 stamina is worth

16.34 * (16635 + YourArmor) / YourHealth

points of armor.

To use this for raids, remember to take into account the armor from Devotion Aura and Stoneskin Totem. If you check your armor and health values while fully raid buffed, make sure you have the aura and totem up to get accurate numbers.

As an example using this formula, a bear with 35k armor and 50k hp raid buffed would have a stam : armor relative value of 1 : 16.87.

thorngrip · 11/17/09, 8:55 AM

Double post, please delete.

Grato · 11/23/09, 3:29 AM

Hello fellow bears!

I've been reading Elitist Jerks forums quite a while, around two years, and it's been a huge help - in many ways.
However, this thread seems to be quieting down, which is not going to happen if it depends on me! And quite frankly, I'm in a need of help right now... *ehhheh*

I just begun bear tanking and kinda dumped the restoration as it's boring the heck out of me. Tree used to be my mainspec for five long years and I think the new era is about to begin.

Sorry about the futile startoff, but I had to break the ice somehow...

Anyway, I'd have some questions concerning Rawr v.2.2.27 and the way it's trying to make me use Stalwart Ametrine (10 agility, 10 defense) gems on yellow sockets and f.ex. making me to utilise 4 agility socket bonuses via these gems.
Rawr is also telling me to gem Delicate Cardinal Ruby's (20 agility) over Solid Majestic Zircon (30 stamina) on every socket slot, if the socket bonuses "aren't worth it". This being while fully raidbuffed; ~52k HP, 34k armor and around 48% of dodge.
However, the situation seems to be quite different as I'm unbuffed. While unbuffed, Rawr tells me to fully load my sockets with stamina.

As I see it, the only thing I'm interested in, as a raid bear, is how do I perform in a raid situation - the unbuffed stats, nor gemming isn't my cup of tea, right?
Has my Survival Points just reached the landmark in which it's not worth gemming for stamina anymore? And should I follow the advice given by Rawr, aiming for agility socket bonuses and force them with such gems as Stalwart Ametrine's?

I tried searching the forums a bit with the search tool, but my efforts didn't show much of a result.

Most likely that's it for now! Thanks in advance.

Daboran · 11/23/09, 4:47 AM

Well, we've just had a discussion on gems over the last few posts.

Rawr only shows you figures, not what you need in the real world. It much better for calculating Cat gear to optimize dps because dps is pretty similar no matter what you're killing. Tanking however depends a lot on the encounter and what stats you need to (a) survive (b) improve survivability and give healers an easier time.

Yellow Gems
You shouldn't go out of your way to gain a socket bonus. If it makes sense in terms of your overall gear then feel free. Don't forget you can use a Nightmare Tear for yellow also. As I mentioned earlier, I have one set of gloves for tanking and dps . In that case I chose a yellow gem that benefits both and activates the socket.

Stam vs Agi
You rule of thumb should always be to have enough HP to survive a worst-case string of attacks by a boss. After this it's down to personal preference.
Some people put stamina in every slot on the principle that it eases stress on healing. I don't see it myself as 2 Paladins with beacon and Druid HoTs can keep a tank alive against anything this game can throw at him at present.
I gem stamina, sta/agi and agi gems as I see fit making sure that I always have sufficient HP that I'm not goign to die to a string of boss attacks. I have to say it's rare that I gem a 20agi gem for tanking though.

All this may change in Icecrown of course, with the radiance debuff and new encounters, it could be that stam/armor are the way to go for Bears, similar to early Sunwell. Later Sunwell paid to gear for dodge as the improvement per point was proportionately greater, but this was only possible once you had the HP pool required to survive the boss damage. It wouldnt surprise me to see Icecrown follow the same pattern.