In my opinion, on tank swaps, the tank being swapped from should always stop attacking for a couple seconds after the swap. All it really takes after a swap is a couple unlucky dodges or other RNG for the swapped-to tank to not have enough rage or not generate any threat in the short term. To me, a few thousand damage is worth losing to increase the likelihood of the swap sticking exponentially.
I suppose that's simply my philosophy on it, but it's worked well for me on tank swap fights (bear boss in ZA, Gluth, etc.).
In addition to the talent changes Boevis recommended, remember how taunt mechanics work - when you growl off the pally you get boosted ahead of him in threat, but you need to also be generating more threat per second than he is in order to hold it once the taunt debuff wears off. Time your growl so that immediately after the aggro switches you land a mangle/maul/feral faerie fire to make sure you burst ahead in threat; on fights that require tank swaps you can ask the other tank to stop his rotation for a few seconds after the swap to make sure he doesn't rip it back with either lucky hits on his part or unlucky ones for you.
I mentioned in another thread that I'd talk about Thorim Hard Mode.
Our healers have found it significantly easier to heal 1 target than heal 2 tanks when swapping, they don't want to risk the current tank getting gibbed by Unbalancing + Parry haste + Frostbolts or whatever, but at the same time, the 2nd tank takes a huge risk when taunting of heals being slow to come in. After my success in 10 mans with the glyph of barkskin, we (I) decided that I should solo tank the 25 man with crit immunity gear.
Thus far we've seen the enrage timer a couple times, we're still bringing 3 tanks (mistake) melee keep chaining the lightning and ranged die to blizzard+frostbolt volley. But, so long as healers (and the various paladins) don't die, I've lived through 18 stacks.
This is just one way of doing it, that I sincerely hope will work, I know a lot of guilds use other methods which switch tanks around (specifically DK's and Warriors), and I've heard of just using double Druid to rotate barkskin crit immunity (you do need 4t7 to cover the full debuff though) If you have healers that have trouble target switching, I do recomend finding a set of gear similar to mine (all the better if you get furious pieces over deadly, the +20 ilvl is huge)
At 0.1% of my healing received, I'm sorely disappointed with Blood Draining, my health was dipping faster than it procced. Because it doesn't actually prevent damage (like mongoose, and the amazing Blade Ward) it really doesn't seem worth it as a PvE enchant, and you really aren't going to see it in PvP. Much like Savagery, Black Magic, Scourgebane, and so many other enchants, it's another good idea, poorly implemented by blizzards "if it's clearly the best, then it must be overpowered" team. There was nothing wrong with Mongoose being as good as it is, putting in a Greater Mongoose isn't going to break the game. I'd even take something like the proc effect on the SSO neck where what you get could vary based on class.
Relative to Helistar's post, I am wondering how well Blood Draining is working?
Boevis, would you mind posting a WWS link (or some analysis) from Thorim Hard Mode (or whatever boss you think might yield better data for demonstrating how well BD is working)?
Single tanking Thorim is an interesting idea . . . we taunt rotate and it seems to be working for us, but then we are not attempting hard mode yet.
For Thorim Hard-25, I went with more or less all PvP gear except few pieces (4S5, 1850 staff, Furious boots/bracers/belt/cloak all - all PvP gemmed... yeah I'm not that rich to regem them all!). I slapped on T8.5 tanking shoulders, defense neck/rings, tanking trinket. With talent + resil + defense, I barely made it to crit immunity. PvP gear naturually have high stamina, but you lose a lot of avoidance/mitigation.
Pretty much after 6 stacks of buff, we had to start using out rotation. Maybe if I were to go with Boevis' route, things might have been a bit easier on healers and I wouldn't require as much out rotation? We finally killed him one attempt after our healers stayed alive and I got proper help from GS, BoSac, etc.
I mentioned in another thread that I'd talk about Thorim Hard Mode.
Our healers have found it significantly easier to heal 1 target than heal 2 tanks when swapping, they don't want to risk the current tank getting gibbed by Unbalancing + Parry haste + Frostbolts or whatever, but at the same time, the 2nd tank takes a huge risk when taunting of heals being slow to come in. After my success in 10 mans with the glyph of barkskin, we (I) decided that I should solo tank the 25 man with crit immunity gear.
Thus far we've seen the enrage timer a couple times, we're still bringing 3 tanks (mistake) melee keep chaining the lightning and ranged die to blizzard+frostbolt volley. But, so long as healers (and the various paladins) don't die, I've lived through 18 stacks.
This is just one way of doing it, that I sincerely hope will work, I know a lot of guilds use other methods which switch tanks around (specifically DK's and Warriors), and I've heard of just using double Druid to rotate barkskin crit immunity (you do need 4t7 to cover the full debuff though) If you have healers that have trouble target switching, I do recomend finding a set of gear similar to mine (all the better if you get furious pieces over deadly, the +20 ilvl is huge)
At 0.1% of my healing received, I'm sorely disappointed with Blood Draining, my health was dipping faster than it procced. Because it doesn't actually prevent damage (like mongoose, and the amazing Blade Ward) it really doesn't seem worth it as a PvE enchant, and you really aren't going to see it in PvP. Much like Savagery, Black Magic, Scourgebane, and so many other enchants, it's another good idea, poorly implemented by blizzards "if it's clearly the best, then it must be overpowered" team. There was nothing wrong with Mongoose being as good as it is, putting in a Greater Mongoose isn't going to break the game. I'd even take something like the proc effect on the SSO neck where what you get could vary based on class.
Wanted to ask you, as I see you have 422 ressi and another 105 ressi from trinket procs, also 99 defense rating on your gear, is this enough to be crit immune? and also are you still using the Barkskin Glyph ?
Have you ever seen crushing blows on you ?
Thx in advance
Wanted to ask you, as I see you have 422 ressi and another 105 ressi from trinket procs, also 99 defense rating on your gear, is this enough to be crit immune? and also are you still using the Barkskin Glyph ?
Have you ever seen crushing blows on you ?
Thx in advance
You are forgetting the 50 resilience from the set bonus, but yes he does have enough to be uncritable with unbalancing strike on him. In fact i think he is about .2% over what he needs if i calculated right.
Probably the reason your health was dipping lower than your Blood Draining could stack is due to the complete lack of Agility your geming/enchanting provide. That and Blood draining is a terrible enchant, especially since you are sacrificing that much Avoidance you would think that you would try and get it where you could.
I'm also confused on the need to stack so much stamina for the Hard mode Thorium fight, Does he really hit hard enough to need that much Agility sacrificed for it?
Generally for Thorium I find that using Barkskin right before I Taunt off the boss and right as Thorium is about to Unbalancing Strike me encase one of the other tanks are slow on the Taunt. Generally they do the same and it works out decently though I have yet to try hard mode Thorium I don't see the real purpose of having 1 Tank on him the entire time Vs 3 tanks due to the fact that your required to at least have 2 Tanks (if not 3 usually.) For the start of the fight.
I know the discussion of Agil vs. Stam stacking has been going on for a while. I personally have always been an Agil-stacking lover for the longest time, especially pre-3.1 when we get 20% stam bonus from talent.
Now? I'm not so sure anymore.
At the current state of feral tanking, Ulduar lacks variety of leather gear with high stam. Our only avoidance stats is dodge. Since there are no leather pieces in Ulduar with dodge rating, I figure that gemming with Agil is probably best to increase our avoidance (compared to DK/Pally/Warrior who get their increased avoidance from plate pieces).
But now I don't know when to stop. I only recently obtained [Soul-Devouring Cinch] and I went with 3 x [Delicate Scarlet Ruby], using it over [Belt of the Twilight Assassin] with 1 x [Solid Stormjewel]. But after looking at numbers, I can't help but wonder - is losing ~800 HP worth 1.6% (or so, I forgot exactly number) dodge gain? When do I stop stacking avoidance? Do you ferals keep stam and avoidance set seperate?
Something I missed? Is there diminishing return on resilience?
You're calculating 79 defense rating as 79 defense skill. I'm also not sure where 79 came from, I see 20 head enchant + 46 neck + 25 back = 91 rating, 18.5 skill, 0.74% crit avoidance.
You're calculating 79 defense rating as 79 defense skill. I'm also not sure where 79 came from, I see 20 head enchant + 46 neck + 25 back = 91 rating, 18.5 skill, 0.74% crit avoidance.
You missed the 8def rating from the gem in the gloves slot. I corrected my calc, now Boevis is crittable...
Not sure where you guys are getting these numbers for my resilience. I'm actually significantly over the cap with this setup because Rawr is currently calculating the set bonus as +35 not +50 (and I edited my original post because I switched to an agi gem in gloves)
Head: 20 def
Neck: 46 def
Shoulders: 15 res
Back: 25 def
Chest: 86 res
Wrist: 41 res
Waist: 56 res
Legs: 106 res
Feet: 80 res
Ring2: 42 res
Trinket2: 105 res
Set Bonus: 50 res
Rawr actually tells me 8.24 and I could actually drop the chest enchant, but I'm wary of blizzard's rounding.
And honestly, 52.8% Avoidance post DR isn't nearly as significant a difference from my regular 56.2%, the only major downside to my gear is complete lack of burst threat (horribly low expertise, I may switch around some items like my new [Furious Gladiator's Dragonhide Gloves] and [Belt of the Twilight Assassin] and get the socket bonus on the chest with a shifting and a vivid), so I usually let the other tank grab him from the start, use his cooldowns, and I taunt before the 2nd unbalancing.
And no, he's never crushed me. And yes, I know it's likely more optimal to run a rotation (though you don't actually need more than 1 tank in phase 1, the arena can be tanked by DPS DKs, Warriors, or Cats-in-bearform) just because of having more cooldowns available on his white hits, but my healers are bad at switching targets.
Last edited by Boevis : 05/27/09 at 4:27 PM.
Reason: crushing
Frenzied Regen by itself with 35k health heals for 35000*0.003*100 = 10500 health (assuming infinite rage scenario).
The glyph adds 20% for 2100 extra heals form FR alone. Of course you are getting the majority of your benefit from external helaing sources.
SI glyph give your 15% of your total health for 20 seconds. So 35000 * 0.15 = 5250.
And you lose all this health at the end of 15 seconds. This isn't because of the glyph, but the mechanics of SI; however, it does inherit that downside as well. On the upside, you do get the instant health, and you don't need to wait for the first big heal to come in like in the FR glyph case.
I lean towards the FR glyph for sure.
Edit: I used 35k health. maybe I should have used something a bit higher. This would tip things slightly in favor of SI, but I still don't think by enough to change my mind.
This post hits on something that I haven't seen anyone else say in this thread so far, but glyphs of FR and SI work best together when both spells are used at once.
Just doing a simple test to verify with my normal 34k hp I let an 80 elite Sentinel beat me down to under 20k hp and then hit FR. I healed for 12326 with 10 hits average of 1233 healed per hp.
Same mob this time I used glyphed SI which brought my HP to a little over 49k and then hit FR with its glyph. Healed for 17071 with 9 normal ticks for 1599 avg and 1 crit of 2681. Even with 0 crits the heal would have been 16k versus 12k without SI.
Raid buff the difference grows larger. I would say its almost best to use both SI and FR together in the emergency situations as even as little as 4-5k extra hp can make a huge difference.
Hi guys, I want to ask the more general question: how good is resilience gear for end-game bear tanking these days? I understand that the crit immunity is no longer required, but it seems that some of the new PvP gear has great tanking stats (just usually replacing a threat stat like armor pen for resilience - haven't looked at T8 with much detail). I see gladiator gear ranked near the top of many gear lists, but i'm not 100% sure of the value resilience has in PvE.
If we are crit immune through talents already (except for those particular boss fights), then what do we really get from stacking resilience? Is the "reduces periodic damage" portion of the tooltip applicable to all incoming dmg or just DoTs from mobs/bosses? How many PvP pieces would be too many?
If we are crit immune through talents already (except for those particular boss fights), then what do we really get from stacking resilience? Is the "reduces periodic damage" portion of the tooltip applicable to all incoming dmg or just DoTs from mobs/bosses? How many PvP pieces would be too many?
The reason PvP ranks so highly has nothing to do with resilience and everything to do with it having a higher ilvl, higher stamina and higher agility than comparable PvE pieces. That's all.
That's what I was saying, SotF is .4% crit reduction over what is normally needed (6% - 5.6% = .4%) I was merely showing how I was compensating for the 8% reduction from Unbalancing Strike (you'll notice I got the .2% over part on my own) and assuming
And yes, Kular, I think that unless you're specifically spacing your cooldowns (like on Sarth, Thorim, or Vezax) then using SI does increase the effect of FR. But as mentioned for cooldown require fights, do not ignore the power of the 20% increased healing received from the [Glyph of Frenzied Regeneration] as a stand-alone cooldown, my deaths from being 2-shot tend to occur during no-dodge strings where I'm not getting topped off, Frenzied Regeneration w/ glyph is equal with SI on health generated (sometimes more, sometimes less)
Well just have a simple question, I've been having a duscussion with my feral tank about a certain item ([Loop of the Agile]).
Well basicly what I want to know, is it really that good for tanking? I dont know much about feral tanking and itemization for it. That's why I went here. Im a hunter btw
We only do 10man in our guild, maybe there arent any other good tanking rings for feral druids in 10man.
Loop of the Agile is the best tanking ring in 10-men Ulduar and the third-fourth best ring at all. You can look here: Armor - Items - World of Warcraft
As for Using SI+FR together or stand alone I think it all goes down to the fight. For istance I prefere to use them together at high stacks on thorim because I know there will be another tank picking it up but on other fights when you'll need CDs for a longer time (hodir for istance) probably using them separatly it's better.
I haven't seen a trinket yet that i'd replace my darkmoon card with for tanking along side heart of iron. I also still use it for DPSing also (tank mainspec, so gotta wait until all the other DPS have 2 trinks before i can get one from uldar)
Agi version, no question, its better for both tanking and DPS (str version was better for DPS previously).
Do you ferals keep stam and avoidance set seperate?
As a general tanking rule, you should probably build a mitigation/avoidance set and a stamina set separately. I also keep a threat set with me just in case I'm not taking too much damage and need to put out more threat (it allows me to take more damage for rage and has higher expertise).
Originally Posted by Gudder
Post 3.1 in Ulduar... is the Greatness Deck BiS at all??
Intensity vs Improved Mangle
What does everyone think about this? I know that Intensity is considered a weak talent, but I personally find it more valuable than Improved Mangle. Intensity gives me that little bit of additional rage needed to keep my Arms Warriors and Retadins from pulling aggro off me on an initial pull. Plus, without Improved Mangle, I have a very simple rotation (Open w/ FFF + Charge, Mangle, Lac, Lac, Lac; rotation: Mangle, FFF, Lac, Swipe). With this rotation I put out about 4.5k-5.5k TPS, which is enough for what my guild is currently doing. Is Improved Mangle really worth destroying the rotation (and thus the simplicity in moving a target while continuing threat)?
I'm trying to build a balanced set for tanking. Am I shooting myself in the foot, and should I be looking at maxing out one extreme or the other? I'm logged out in my tanking gear right now. I recently picked up JC so I can socket some Dragon's Eye in my tanking set. and I've been focusing on getting my stam up, but I have a number of agility gems as well.
Right now I've got about 41k hp raid buffed and 43% dodge, and hitting about 32k armor with devotion aura or stoneskin. Technically, the stats sound good to me, but some of the conversation makes me wonder if i should pick up the Polar set and stam gem it to the ground.
05/22/09, 12:10 PM
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