Hi there. This is my first post, but I've been an avid reader of the forums. So please be gentle.
I play Moonkin in PvE, but my situation is a tiny bit different than the norm. I play over a sattelite internet connection, so I run with a static 1.9 second latency. While it makes raiding much harder, I still manage to eek out enough DPS to be competitive, and I've learned to adapt to survive through fights like Mimiron, Hodir, or General Vezax where a lot of movement is required.
However, when it comes to DPS, I find that a lot of the common sense rules no longer seem to work for me, and I wondered if I could get some confirmation, or maybe even advice, that I'm doing the right thing.
Latency seems to affect instants a lot more than they do cast-time spells. I can que up instants, but I can't really figure out what's happening exactly. My best guess is I hit the instant (+1.9 seconds later it casts), and after the GCD of the first instant is down (+1.3ish seconds), it let's me input another instant (which casts at +1.9s after I hit the button). So it seems like I pay a hefty latency tax on each instant. To the point where each instant is eating up ~3 seconds to cast. It seems like the DPET (hope that's the right term) of the instants would drop a lot given that it takes so much time to get them up.
However, with cast time spells (ie Wrath and Starfire), I only have downtime on the very first cast. I move, and when I stop to cast again, I hit Starfire (it begins to cast 1.9 seconds later), and then I can chain cast with very little time lost by spamming the correct nuke button. I find cast time spells to be much, much higher DPS than instants.
So, my current strategy is to use instants only during movement, spell locks, etc. (where I generally have more time than instants to blow), and focus on chaining Eclipse procs at other times. For my situation and limitations, am I doing the best that I can given my high latency? Minimizing movement and raiding constantly has really improved my DPS, to the point where I feel very competitive, but if I can do anything to improve, I'm willing to give it a go.
I currently glyph for IS, Starfall and Focus, and I do blow Starfall on CD. From lots of test dummy results (dozens and dozens of sessions) it seems like this is my highest DPS setup.
Also, given my situation and playstyle, does this heavily impact the values on different stats such as spellpower, crit, and haste? Someone mentioned it before, but haste seems to be negatively impacted by latency more than crit, because every gap in casts leaves room for more time to be lost.
One final point is that I did check RAWR and the spreadsheet at the begginning of this thread, but it seems like a lot of my choices and decisions aren't modeled (seems like none of them have Starfall and Focus glyphs), and I'm not sure that they're handling latency correctly for instants vs. cast time spells. In my case, it seems like it would vary so much depending on the movement in each fight, as I only pay the latency cost for the very first cast-time spell I use after moving. Everything after that has a minimal cost in comparison (on the order of 100-150ms, maybe).
Yeah. I was toying with an idea of turning off scaling generation, but I'm not sure how to do that. It would allow you to significantly speed up the sheet while you're changing values.
You can set Excel to only recompute manually. I even found an option to recompute everything but data tables automatically, which seems like it would be ideal. But the problem is that Excel normally does its recalculation intelligently, only reworking things with are dependent on changed elements. The full manual recompute, which recalculates the entire sheet, therefore takes quite a bit longer than automatic one we get now, so this option isn't really better.
Is there any way to abuse some kind of short-circuiting to make it not calculate the data tables based on some user-configurable option? It's also worth noting that most of the time, you only care about a few of the tables (basically the stats); the rest are pretty irrelevant to everyday use.
Hi there. This is my first post, but I've been an avid reader of the forums. So please be gentle.
I play Moonkin in PvE, but my situation is a tiny bit different than the norm. I play over a sattelite internet connection, so I run with a static 1.9 second latency. While it makes raiding much harder, I still manage to eek out enough DPS to be competitive, and I've learned to adapt to survive through fights like Mimiron, Hodir, or General Vezax where a lot of movement is required.
However, when it comes to DPS, I find that a lot of the common sense rules no longer seem to work for me, and I wondered if I could get some confirmation, or maybe even advice, that I'm doing the right thing.
Latency seems to affect instants a lot more than they do cast-time spells. I can que up instants, but I can't really figure out what's happening exactly. My best guess is I hit the instant (+1.9 seconds later it casts), and after the GCD of the first instant is down (+1.3ish seconds), it let's me input another instant (which casts at +1.9s after I hit the button). So it seems like I pay a hefty latency tax on each instant. To the point where each instant is eating up ~3 seconds to cast. It seems like the DPET (hope that's the right term) of the instants would drop a lot given that it takes so much time to get them up.
However, with cast time spells (ie Wrath and Starfire), I only have downtime on the very first cast. I move, and when I stop to cast again, I hit Starfire (it begins to cast 1.9 seconds later), and then I can chain cast with very little time lost by spamming the correct nuke button. I find cast time spells to be much, much higher DPS than instants.
So, my current strategy is to use instants only during movement, spell locks, etc. (where I generally have more time than instants to blow), and focus on chaining Eclipse procs at other times. For my situation and limitations, am I doing the best that I can given my high latency? Minimizing movement and raiding constantly has really improved my DPS, to the point where I feel very competitive, but if I can do anything to improve, I'm willing to give it a go.
I currently glyph for IS, Starfall and Focus, and I do blow Starfall on CD. From lots of test dummy results (dozens and dozens of sessions) it seems like this is my highest DPS setup.
Also, given my situation and playstyle, does this heavily impact the values on different stats such as spellpower, crit, and haste? Someone mentioned it before, but haste seems to be negatively impacted by latency more than crit, because every gap in casts leaves room for more time to be lost.
One final point is that I did check RAWR and the spreadsheet at the begginning of this thread, but it seems like a lot of my choices and decisions aren't modeled (seems like none of them have Starfall and Focus glyphs), and I'm not sure that they're handling latency correctly for instants vs. cast time spells. In my case, it seems like it would vary so much depending on the movement in each fight, as I only pay the latency cost for the very first cast-time spell I use after moving. Everything after that has a minimal cost in comparison (on the order of 100-150ms, maybe).
That much delay on your instants would blow up the whole rotation, you couldn't really just change stat values and expect to have a normal playstyle. Best advice would be to use the spreadsheet and change the delay values on the front page to reflect the amount of time you think you actually lose after instants and after cast-time spells. You'd probably have to experiment to see how your Wrath (where cast time = GCD) behaves; I have no idea how that would work.
You'd probably have to experiment to see how your Wrath (where cast time = GCD) behaves; I have no idea how that would work.
Yeah, it seems like I lose out anytime I break up a cast time rotation with instants. I lose almost nothing versus a player without latency as long as I'm spam casting Starfire and Wrath, but the moment I hit IS or MF, I feel like I'm sitting there for 3 seconds until I get back into my groove.
As far as Wrath, because of the way spells que now, it chain casts for me. So my Quartz bar completes and starts again near-instantly (I can't see a delay with my eyes).
My intuition is that instant casts are only right to use when I'm moving. On fights with very little movement, I can end up pretty high for damage done and DPS, often in the top 25% of the DPS, if not vying for a top spot. I realize I'm loosing a big chunk of DPS to latency, but it seems very minimal with cast time spells.
My situation is definitely not the norm, but it's possible that players with higher latency of all classes (Aussies seem to have it bad too) might be better suited to a completely different kind of rotation emphasizing cast time spells and de-emphasizing instants. I can even chain cast Hurricanes (or Mindflays on a shadow priest) by recasting the moment Quartz hits the 2s mark. Just instants are awful.
Is there any chance to get Glyph of Focus tacked into your spreadsheet, or has someone figured out what the DPS increase is for it in conjunction with Glyph of Starfall already?
Yeah, it seems like I lose out anytime I break up a cast time rotation with instants. I lose almost nothing versus a player without latency as long as I'm spam casting Starfire and Wrath, but the moment I hit IS or MF, I feel like I'm sitting there for 3 seconds until I get back into my groove.
As far as Wrath, because of the way spells que now, it chain casts for me. So my Quartz bar completes and starts again near-instantly (I can't see a delay with my eyes).
My intuition is that instant casts are only right to use when I'm moving. On fights with very little movement, I can end up pretty high for damage done and DPS, often in the top 25% of the DPS, if not vying for a top spot. I realize I'm loosing a big chunk of DPS to latency, but it seems very minimal with cast time spells.
My situation is definitely not the norm, but it's possible that players with higher latency of all classes (Aussies seem to have it bad too) might be better suited to a completely different kind of rotation emphasizing cast time spells and de-emphasizing instants. I can even chain cast Hurricanes (or Mindflays on a shadow priest) by recasting the moment Quartz hits the 2s mark. Just instants are awful.
Is there any chance to get Glyph of Focus tacked into your spreadsheet, or has someone figured out what the DPS increase is for it in conjunction with Glyph of Starfall already?
Consider adding a NG penalty to the execution time for IS (and to a lesser extent MF) in the spreadsheet.
During Wrath-spam, a Wrath will be cast under NG if any of the previous 3 Wraths crit. However, a "recent" IS cast means that a Wrath cast will be under NG only if one of the previous 2 Wraths crit.
For each IS cast, there are three future Wraths with a reduced chance of benefiting from NG. A Wrath cast without NG takes about 0.2s longer. The reduced chance (for Wrath crit rates in the 40-50% range) is 13 to 14%. Put that together (3*0.2s*13.5%) and the potential loss of NG costs you roughly 0.08 to 0.09s.
With a similar analysis for SF (non-eclipse crit ranges from 43% to 53%, 0.4s penalty for non-NG SF cast, 2 spells affected) and an IS during SF spam costs you
Non-eclipse: 0.20s
Eclipse (no 2t8): 0.11 to 0.16s
Eclipse (2t8): .02 to .08s (at 98% crit, seeing only one SF instead of two makes very little difference)
Although the "cast time" for IS didn't get any worse, the cast will cost you something (roughly 0.1s on average) down the road, and it makes sense to charge that time to IS's execute time.
MF should also have a penalty but it is perhaps only about 1/3 to 1/2 that of IS. Note that an MF DD crit "wastes" a GCD worth of its NG, since the NG occurs early but (presumably, needs testing) doesn't help MF's own GCD.
During Wrath-spam, 3 spells are affected. Instead of "looking back" and seeing three Wraths, two of them will look back and see MF+Wr*2 (very little change in NG probability). One of them will look back and see just Wr*2.
For an MF during SF spam, 2 SF are affected. Instead of looking back and seeing 2 SF, one will look back and see SF+MF, and the other will look back and see just SF.
This NG penalty should not be built into the spreadsheet's "Instant Cast" penalty, as that also affects the spreadsheet's Wrath cast time.
To start off LVL 80 Boomkin on Executus
So far I have been rather casual in WoTLK and have been doing primarily 5-man runs with the occasional raid. Nevertheless I always strive to at least be at the hit cap for if/when I begin raiding. I personally feel as though my stats are currently rather respectable for my lvl of play.
I now have a dilemma, I can now get 2xT8 with emblems of conquest. But this will eat away at my crit like CRAZY if I take the T8 head and chest. Any recommendations for keeping a respectable lvl of crit?
Here is a link to my armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory
For those of you who notice I am currently under the hit cap, I can simply equip my [Mark of the War Prisoner] and be smack dab right on it. Also, please don't recommend that I get the Emblem of Valor Idol as I almost have enough [Emblem of Triumph] to get that idol.
I guess what I am really asking is, short of re-gemming for crit, is there any good gear out there I can get without raiding that will keep crit up with the addition of the T8 Head/Chest to my current gear? Or should I gem for crit? Even though I think that sounds silly, since everything I have EVER read puts SP>crit. Or is this something I shouldn't really worry about?
I guess I am just at a loss, I would like to get the T7.5 Leggings with Emblems of Valor(so I could maintain T7 2 piece bonus and get the T8 2 piece bonus), but would lose stats, also interested in [Wildstrider Legguards] but can't tell if the T7 2 piece bonus is worth more than the stats gains from what I have or not... GRRR... this is just getting frustrating.
I feel like all of the badge gear that I can get would be minor upgrades at best and so I haven't done anything, but I am sitting on like 100+ [Emblem of Conquest] and I guess I just want help on what to do next.
Please, SOMEBODY/ANYBODY help me! OR... refer me to a different thread.
Pantsoffancy, I don't think concentrating on what crit rating you have is necessary, it just comes with the gear. Getting the T8 chest and helm will definitely be an upgrade for you, the 2 piece set bonus is incredibly good and the raw stats on the gear will be an upgrade over any other items you could get from 5man instances. I don't think gemming for crit is ever worthwhile. T7 2 piece isn't anything special - there is an incredibly nice pair of legs from the new heroic 5man, as well as some gloves and shoulders so look out for them (iLvl 219 gear, almost perfectly itemised in my opinion).
Quick issue with the new idol, Rawr is telling me that it is a downgrade over the old starfire one, but everyone here is telling people to go out and buy it straight away. I've been unable to make much difference between the two to be honest, as I've made a lot of changes to my gear recently.
Quick issue with the new idol, Rawr is telling me that it is a downgrade over the old starfire one, but everyone here is telling people to go out and buy it straight away. I've been unable to make much difference between the two to be honest, as I've made a lot of changes to my gear recently.
It doesn't seem to be parsing the item correctly, or implementing it, or what have you. Open the item editor, remove the special effect, and give it a static 200 crit rating; you'll see it jump to the top of the list.
Another issue I noticed yesterday, though I'm not sure how much of an effect it has: If you bring a 2.2.12 profile into 2.2.13, and you didn't enable 3.2 mode on it beforehand, 3.2 mode isn't enabled afterwards, and you can't change it as the control is disabled. I'm not sure if the modeling is the same, or if there's some minor differences between the two in 2.2.13 (I know I was getting similar results after I fixed it, but unsure if they were identical). To get it set properly to be safe, either reload it in 2.2.12 and make the change there, or edit the .xml file directly, it's a simple matter of finding the element and changing false to true.
quick question, I assume Rawr would pry tell me but i'm at work and unable to do it atm. But off hand, if i'm trying to fulfill my meta aquirements with 2 blue gems, 1) SP & Spirit gem, is the 2) one worth while to have 10 stats, (epic 10 stats gem from dragon's eye) or just throw another SP % Spirit again? just quick question that i'm ponderin at work.
quick question, I assume Rawr would pry tell me but i'm at work and unable to do it atm. But off hand, if i'm trying to fulfill my meta aquirements with 2 blue gems, 1) SP & Spirit gem, is the 2) one worth while to have 10 stats, (epic 10 stats gem from dragon's eye) or just throw another SP % Spirit again? just quick question that i'm ponderin at work.
It doesn't seem to be parsing the item correctly, or implementing it, or what have you. Open the item editor, remove the special effect, and give it a static 200 crit rating; you'll see it jump to the top of the list.
Another issue I noticed yesterday, though I'm not sure how much of an effect it has: If you bring a 2.2.12 profile into 2.2.13, and you didn't enable 3.2 mode on it beforehand, 3.2 mode isn't enabled afterwards, and you can't change it as the control is disabled. I'm not sure if the modeling is the same, or if there's some minor differences between the two in 2.2.13 (I know I was getting similar results after I fixed it, but unsure if they were identical). To get it set properly to be safe, either reload it in 2.2.12 and make the change there, or edit the .xml file directly, it's a simple matter of finding the element and changing false to true.
First of all, it is parsing and implementing the idol correctly. I know you guys don't like the numbers it's putting out, but the formula I'm using for uptime isn't even mine, it's Kavan's. I will tell you that it does scale vastly better as you get better gear.
The second is a known issue, has been listed as such, and is fixed in the current source. The 3.2 model is exactly the same between 2.2.12 and 2.2.13, but in the current source, it has been changed so that Wrath Eclipse is additive with Moonfury and 4T9 and multiplicative with E&M and other percentage modifiers.
First of all, it is parsing and implementing the idol correctly. I know you guys don't like the numbers it's putting out, but the formula I'm using for uptime isn't even mine, it's Kavan's. I will tell you that it does scale vastly better as you get better gear.
It doesn't make that much sense for the idol to behave or scale too differently from a static 200 crit rating though. What is the formula you're using for uptime?
First of all, it is parsing and implementing the idol correctly. I know you guys don't like the numbers it's putting out, but the formula I'm using for uptime isn't even mine, it's Kavan's. I will tell you that it does scale vastly better as you get better gear.
There is some implementation issue in 2.2.13
If I change my character to 0/3 Eclipse I see
IoLF: 228
IotSS: 205
I suspect this is what I'd see at 100% MF and SF spam (no Eclipse)
At 1/3 Eclipse I see
IoLF: -108.8 Note: Negative
IotSS: +122.6
Shooting star loses almost half its value, since SF is only half the rotation now.
It makes no sense that equipping Lunar Fury is substantially worse than having no idol at all.
It doesn't make that much sense for the idol to behave or scale too differently from a static 200 crit rating though. What is the formula you're using for uptime?
1 - (1 - 1 * .7) ^ (12 / MeanTimeBetweenTicks). It's returning an uptime in the 99.5% range, so it's not incorrect, but it's causing a bad interaction with some other special effect, I'm guessing, which answers Erdluf's post above. Back to the drawing board, it seems.
I have question on RAWR. I've been following the 'ole boomkin rule of:-
Hit to cap -> spell power -> haste -> crit
But now I'm hit capped and hitting the soft cap for haste I've been looking at RAWR more closely. It seems to want to softcap haste at around 350, which after having over 400 is like watching paint dry. It is putting crit up at 585 (21.46%) I'm sure I can better use haste upto 400 over crit. It's worth noting that the combination of gear availbale to RAWR does allow this (I think I have 20.07% crit, 423 haste equipped, which also gives me slight more spellpower!).
Any thoughts or should I punch the figures into the spreadsheet as well and see what happens?
I have question on RAWR. I've been following the 'ole boomkin rule of:-
Hit to cap -> spell power -> haste -> crit
But now I'm hit capped and hitting the soft cap for haste I've been looking at RAWR more closely. It seems to want to softcap haste at around 350, which after having over 400 is like watching paint dry. It is putting crit up at 585 (21.46%) I'm sure I can better use haste upto 400 over crit. It's worth noting that the combination of gear availbale to RAWR does allow this (I think I have 20.07% crit, 423 haste equipped, which also gives me slight more spellpower!).
Any thoughts or should I punch the figures into the spreadsheet as well and see what happens?
Thanks.
Put it in the spreadsheet or the sim, and calculate weights for the stats. Then install pawn or the like, and use it to compare the net weights of the items in question. There is no shortcut.
I have question on RAWR. I've been following the 'ole boomkin rule of:-
Hit to cap -> spell power -> haste -> crit
But now I'm hit capped and hitting the soft cap for haste I've been looking at RAWR more closely. It seems to want to softcap haste at around 350, which after having over 400 is like watching paint dry. It is putting crit up at 585 (21.46%) I'm sure I can better use haste upto 400 over crit. It's worth noting that the combination of gear availbale to RAWR does allow this (I think I have 20.07% crit, 423 haste equipped, which also gives me slight more spellpower!).
Any thoughts or should I punch the figures into the spreadsheet as well and see what happens?
Thanks.
For me RAWR drastically favors haste over crit below 400 haste and it often suggests items that bring me well over soft haste cap because of that. So there must be sth. wrong with your RAWR or you're overlooking something - old version, very high latency, bad interaction with old XML, Haste food or elixir, Heroism activated under buffs.. stuff like that maybe.
I would like to enlist help in writing a trinket macro that would help simplify the Moonkin rotation when using a haste trinket.
The macro would default to casting Starfire when clicked. But what I would like the macro to do is if Lunar Eclipse has more than 13 seconds left in its duration, to use the haste trinket in slot 13. I tried to do this by modifying a macro that I found in this thread and came up with this:
/run local _,_,_,_,_,_,a = UnitBuff("player","Eclipse");if a then if ((a-GetTime()) > 13) then /Use 13
/cast Starfire)
I was wondering, the cancel-ecplipse macro seems to be working well enough when you are casting starfire (no tangible evidence, just has a feel that does). Now the question is, can it be made to work the other way around as well? I know that wrath on eclipse will not give you any extra crit, but cancelling the aura should give you one more wrath that has the chance of proccing, hence the chance of proccing new eclipse?
Scenario:
* You are spamming wrath during eclipse.
* X seconds before eclipse ends you cancel the aura.
* The last wrath was registred on server as a hit (and for the sake of the example, actually was a crit). You gain full bonus from the eclipse.
* When the data reaches you (the same way as with lunar(?) eclipse), you don't have the aura, hence has a 60% chance on proccing new eclipse on that wrath.
I am not that mathy and researchy, but I know lots of you people like to figure things out so I just thought of asking this. Everything that can increase my dps is good stuff....
I was wondering, the cancel-ecplipse macro seems to be working well enough when you are casting starfire (no tangible evidence, just has a feel that does). Now the question is, can it be made to work the other way around as well? I know that wrath on eclipse will not give you any extra crit, but cancelling the aura should give you one more wrath that has the chance of proccing, hence the chance of proccing new eclipse?
Scenario:
* You are spamming wrath during eclipse.
* X seconds before eclipse ends you cancel the aura.
* The last wrath was registred on server as a hit (and for the sake of the example, actually was a crit). You gain full bonus from the eclipse.
* When the data reaches you (the same way as with lunar(?) eclipse), you don't have the aura, hence has a 60% chance on proccing new eclipse on that wrath.
I am not that mathy and researchy, but I know lots of you people like to figure things out so I just thought of asking this. Everything that can increase my dps is good stuff....
They both have 30s cooldowns, if everything happened perfectly, your Lunar would still be on CD so that Wrath won't proc it. Besides the idea is to always be under the effect of Eclipse now, not to try to focus on one side of it.
The cancelaura macro/addon is nice because you'll always have Solar up after Lunar, and you won't get another cast out of your Lunar rotation when you utilize their benefit. For Solar however you'll get the full benefit of your Eclipse just Wrath spamming down to the last second.
Heya, I'm brand new to the game (have been playing since May) but have been an avid reader of these forums once i was introduced to them. I've learned a TON so thank you!! I apologize in advance for the noobkin question but I'm just now learning about the gearing process in general. I know that I'm currently over hit by a great deal but with my current gear I know that ill drop below cap if I remove anything. I do plan on trading things out as I do more raids, etc. It just seemed smarter to me to be a bit over than be under.
I'm struggling on trash (3+ mobs) and for the most part have just been throwing up IS and MF on 2 targets and then using hurricane. For single targets I've been following the eclipse rotation as outlined in in this post. My overall DPS during instances and such is only around 2.1 to 2.4k. Is that where I should be at or am I'm noobing it up? On single target bosses it is over 3k which makes sense to me especially if I just have to stand there and cast. I haven't been throwing up iFF on trash, should I?
I've read through this post and others a ton and know that I still have ridiculous amounts of work to do but I'm just looking for some honest criticism :P
I'm new and it's my first post, so pleease don't kill me. lol
but i've checked over the balance glyphs and talents time and time over, and i can't work out which glyphs really compliment each talent and spell. I mean like the glyph of monsoon when you have the minor glpyh of typhoon. Is 3 seconds really worth it, and is the minor glyph even really that good? i often use typhoon when the tank loses the aggro and i need to get away from mobs but i've been thinking about each glyph and asking anyone experienced in it... does it help? does it actually make a difference? and does your guild prefer you using the pushback version? the guys in my guild to me to keep it as it helps healers who have aggro.
Also, i use glyph of entangling roots to keep the loose mobs down for longer, but is it worth it? What glyphs would you recommend?
08/19/09, 6:16 PM
Everything that can increase my dps is good stuff....
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